Patty & I were thirsty after a bike ride this evening, so we rode down to the Square here in town and wandered into a small spot noted for its wine and cigars. We don't drink or smoke, but we did avail ourselves of other beverages and some appetizers.

This club, that seats maybe 45 people tops, (tonight, probably about 25-30 people were there,) features live music on Fri/Sat evenings. Everything from solo dulcimer to bluegrass bands and everything in between. I used to play it about 5 years ago, but they are looking for a younger sound and really prefer acoustic guitars being involved somehow.

Tonight it was a duo. A big guy with a tiny hat played a 12 string and did some very basic background vocals. A woman sang and played a little harmonica.

They did some Joplin, they did Dust in the Wind, some country stuff I didn't know and of all songs the Black Horse & Cherry Tree tune Cass suggested.

I didn't enjoy it. I tried, but it just didn't happen.

We sat in the back of a long, rather narrow room. We tried to talk but it was difficult because of how loud they were. The PA was the house system, some low end, unrecognizable brand. They had two 15's out front-I couldn't make out the brand.

PA wise, everything smashed you in the face, especially the ladies vocals. She had a strong voice but my lord, it was so dry it just made you cringe when she really belted it out.

His guitar playing was adequate, but not interesting at all. I understand the limitations with their set up, but a 12 string has a unique sound and after 3-4 songs, I got tired of it.

Everything they played sounded the same to me. Partly because their song selection and renditions were all basically the same approach. Partly because every song had guitar, a solo female vocal and that's it.

What would I have suggested to them to make them more appealing to me?

Tweak their PA system at the very least in adding a bit more reverb or delay or something to make her sound smoother and more pleasing...

Asked her to learn some other instrument. I don't care if its bongos, they need something to change things up.

Playing with MIDI tracks might not be a bad idea...

I would also suggest adding a Harmony G. That would add some contrast to the tunes.

I would also pick different songs...they needed to do something other than medium, fast strumming stuff.

She had a nice voice, but again, there was no variation in how I heard her use it...

IMO, there was too little attention to detail. It was like "Hey, I'm playing the chords-groovy...Hey, I'm singing the songs-also groovy!"

We left after the first set...I smiled at her as we walked past them. It bummed me out that I was so non-enthused about what I'd just heard...

Just thought I'd share this...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 06-20-2009).]

Interesting report Bill

I stopped going to live music many years ago, mainly because of the overpowering volume the artists used. So much so that it was positively painful (I mean REAL pain)to my ears.
For me, this killed the enjoyment.

What I didn't see in your thoughts was how many of the audience were actually listening to the artists. I suppose the music was so loud you could not tell if they were talking (or shouting at each other, which is what you usually have to do in order to be heard)

cheers
Eddie

Good and bad in all forms of entertainment, I'd say... From live to OMB and everything in between.

Sorry you caught a bad one, but don't give up... Probably the same advice you'd give someone that just heard a bad OMB, too.

Eddie-

Of the 25-30 people there, I'd say at least a dozen were paying attention. The rest included about a half dozen at the bar who were kind of into it and the rest weren't.

Imagine an elongated shoe box, with the stage at one of the the box. That's the space I'm describing. Patty & I were at the rear most table and we had to shout just to be heard.

Diki-

You're right...I think part of my response to them was that, IMHO, they could have been much more entertaining with more attention to detail. Other than everything sounding the same, I just didn't hear much creativity at all. No modulations, no breakdowns, no nothing...

If we agree that their act was in their eyes, even in some way, a "finished product" I would disagree. I don't think its club ready. We all constantly look to improve our acts, but I would counsel these guys that you're not finished with these tunes, you've just learned how to play them-Now, make them your own and make them interesting.

I also wondered more than once last night am I just being a snob?

I really didn't think so...I think its about standards. Sure, I'm more critical than the guys at the table next to us. This is Troy frickin Ohio and we're not exactly on the cutting edge of anything, lol...

Its great they're out there having fun and I suppose that's the most important thing.

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Bill in Dayton


[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 06-21-2009).]

I bet if they were using a BOSE or Podium speaker system they would have sounded soooo much better....

Bill...I might add the most common deficiency I see in maybe 95% of live music I come upon. No instrumental "rides.”. No one knows how to play their instruments anymore. It's all about vocals and guitar strumming now. And even that is unimaginative and of poor quality.

I also think that if players "improved" their sound systems, it would only work to their detriment by highlighting their humdrum playing/singing.

Sadly, the bar has been lowered and acceptance of this kind of performance is quite common now, even on television (especially some of these bands that close the late night talk shows). Diki hit it right on the button when he said something about "embracing this level of low quality musicianship puts the average person in the ball park where they can also be accepted for their own "low quality playing" (though Diki articulated it better than I just did).

Can you imagine if anyone had to practice for years to sing like Pavarotti or play guitar like Eric Clapton? It just wouldn't happen....easier to lower the bar, get an Idiot's Guide to being a Professional Musician, and go out and assault the audience!

In the 70’s, I could go to any bar/restaurant/playing venue and sit and listen to a keyboard player or guitarist in a band belt out really creative riffs and fills. You couldn’t help but get better on your own instrument being surrounded by quality music wherever you went. I hear very little of anything nowadays that I could work off of or learn from.

Lucky

Bill...I might add the most common deficiency I see in maybe 95% of live music I come upon. No instrumental "rides.”. No one knows how to play their instruments anymore. It's all about vocals and guitar strumming now. And even that is unimaginative and of poor quality.

I also think that if players "improved" their sound systems, it would only work to their detriment by highlighting their humdrum playing/singing.

Sadly, the bar has been lowered and acceptance of this kind of performance is quite common now, even on television (especially some of these bands that close the late night talk shows). Diki hit it right on the button when he said something about "embracing this level of low quality musicianship puts the average person in the ball park where they can also be accepted for their own "low quality playing" (though Diki articulated it better than I just did).

Can you imagine if anyone had to practice for years to sing like Pavarotti or play guitar like Eric Clapton? It just wouldn't happen....easier to lower the bar, get an Idiot's Guide to being a Professional Musician, and go out and assault the audience!

In the 70’s, I could go to any bar/restaurant/playing venue and sit and listen to a keyboard player or guitarist in a band belt out really creative riffs and fills. You couldn’t help but get better on your own instrument being surrounded by quality music wherever you went. I hear very little of anything nowadays that I could work off of or learn from.

Nice post you submitted here....thanks for taking the time to write it. I thought I was the only one who noticed this phenomenon!

Lucky

Good topic, Bill, and what you happened upon passes for 'entertainment' around here, too.

Everyone's remarks are right on the money. There HAS been a steady degradation in the quality that's out there. But you see, these guys got the gig and the owner had his room at 70% or so capacity (maybe he doesn't pay enough to attract a better quality of act.)

Now, whether they get many gigs is another question, but if they're NOT getting that many then maybe they don't have the cash to spend on a decent PA, harmonisers, fx units, etc. - a sort of chicken or egg question, really.

And I don't get how a solo acoustic guitar, unless it's in some exceptional hands, can be of interest for an entire evening - but what do I know, I'm only a keyboard player. Audiences must be zoned out at some level. That said, I'd be pretty well zoned out as well in those circumstances.

The PA issues are the easiest to fix. Even on the cheapy system the house provided, some basic reverb could taken down a few notches in her voice...

I think a great PA, regardless of make would've been kinder to her than him. Even though the tunes were very similar and they stayed away from any ballads, there's still some natural organic fluctuations in timbre, color, etc. She could sing, no doubt about it. The guitar guy...I don't want to sound like an ass, but he could play chords and strum.

Reminds me of the old Truman Capote quote: "That's not writing, that's typing!"

Cheers-

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Bill in Dayton

I have to admit, from what I have heard submitted to this forum from our members, these young players aren't the only ones incapable (or unwilling) to take a ride or solo. All too often, it seems that many are simply happy to be able to play the melody, and leave it at that. Simply repeating it with different sounds doesn't really count...

I can also remember pretty much the same criticism (too simple, no real skill) being said by the 30's and 40's musicians, when THEY heard rock and roll, and then rock There has always been complex music and simple music popular at the same time. Some of those bigband 'classics' are little more than repeated riffs, while Ellington was writing mini-symphonies. There IS complexity in modern music, but much of it has moved over to rhythm, rather than melodic aspects. Try composing a REALLY good hiphop groove if you don't believe me. It's a LOT more complex that you think!

Music is SO cyclical. The exact same criticisms were being leveled at punk rock when it first came out in the seventies. It went on to influence almost everything rock in today's music. But in between, 'corporate rock' and 'progressive' had their heyday...

Don't like today's music? Hang around a few years. It WILL change again...

I disagree with that in general. I think the art of soloing is very personal and there are many different methods and styles that can be used.

For me, I favor a very traditional style of a lead instrument's first pass being generally a regurgitation of the main theme or melody. I rarely go past this single solo. Sometimes I'll come up with something for the front half then sing it out. In the real jazz world, as verses pass, the solo is grown or expanded, sometimes to unrecognizable degrees. The Jazz idiom lends itself to longer length versions of tunes than other styles. Developing a solo over a few verses is one stock practice. Another would be to throw the solos around the band, which is a different kind of approach.

In my musical world, I never venture into what I'd call "long form jazz." I've got one verse to play something that compliments my vocals and sets up the next section of the tune.

I appreciate those cats that can "get way out there" for X number of verses, but I've only rarely enjoyed it. Its seems at some point to become more technical ability rather than substance. I'll readily allow that maybe I just don't get it, but that's not my world.

A few years ago I hired a sub bass player who was reported to be a monster. He was great but when we threw him a solo I couldn't follow him and neither could my dancers. I think for a ballroom crowd, better to stay close to the vest. If your in a jazz room, then the sky's the limit...

I love alot of that stuff, but some of it just escapes me.

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 06-21-2009).]

But, while there are many individual ways of soloing, I must respectfully disagree. Repetition of the head is NOT 'soloing'. No matter how many instruments you play it on. If there IS only one pass for a solo (particularly if you sing the head, and intend to sing after the solo), then the sky is the limit, withing the taste boundaries of the style (no-one wants to hear free-form or bebop craziness if the style is straight ahead). But simply playing the head AGAIN... sorry, but I can't really recognize that as 'soloing'.

It's also just that, here at SZ, we aren't playing for dancers, or jazz crowds. Just ourselves. Perhaps an opportunity to play things the way WE want, rather than to an audience's expectations...

While jazz can take it 'outside' to the extremes, even most 'pop' instrumentalists rarely play the head as straightforwardly as we often hear on SZ. There's usually a fair bit of decoration and invention at phrase endings, etc..

One of the harder things to do on an arranger, though, is that often, in bigband or many pop instrumentals, one section will play the melody very simply, while the soloist dances around it. Not so easy to pull off in style mode... But a combination of first pass recording with the simple line, then overdub with the soloist can make for some very effective instrumentals. Or vocal version, too...

And, as example, I offer this great rendition, posted by Randy on another thread...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XFwd-xu3Dw&feature=channel

Even when he's playing the head, there's a HUGE amount of tasty decoration, and the solos manage to combine virtuosity without alienating the crowd...

I guess what I'm saying is that a very straightforward solo with subtle decorative elements can be fine. Sometimes the simplicity of just a different instrument playing the melody with little flair is perfect. Its so easy to ignore the beauty of what you already have, that the song doesn't need any significant improv, etc.

To move toward the pop style...Most pop fans seem to feel that Mariah Carey is at or near the top of contemporary pop female vocalists. I find all the trills, grace notes, and extraneous vocals gymnastics as some impressive technique, but rarely do I find it really adds to my impression of the song. Its the style vs. substance issue. Now we've seemingly got a whole generation of new pop singers trying to match her and its a huge turn off.

That said, in full disclosure, I've always thought of myself as a rhythm KB guy. I am strong when it comes to chord progressions, passing tones, supporting a singer or another instrumentalist. I SUCK at playing leads. I can get by a few times a night playing some stock boogie-woogie things or a nice repetition of the melody in a tasteful way, but that's it.

Not to get too focused on me, but my background is singing. Years ago I wanted to learn how to play well enough to support my vocals and I learned that. Now, I've had sax, trumpet and guitar players, not to mention my own drummer/bass player say I'm easy to work with because they know I'm not going to try and step on anyone. I just want it to sound good.



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Bill in Dayton

Great topic.

Great posts so far.

Something that hasn't been mentioned re Live playing/singing (unless I've missed it, or it's inference) is one word:

Commitment.

It sounds a little nebulous, but it means a lot to me. Basically what I see these days (or more accurately hear about from our audiences) is that people get up on stage, play a song, and that's it. No Entertainment or eye contact, no (real) feel or groove, or spark, no risk taking, or soul.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, that's what seems missing to me when I see a live performance (particularly from Local Musicians/Singers) and even many *big league* Players/Singers.

As an example of what I'm talking about in the aforementioned "big league" - everyone should listen to two recordings of the same song:

"A Change is Gonna Come".

PLEASE everyone if you can, download/Youtube/research the two versions I currently know of:

SEAL (A British "Soul" singer - the ""'s are definitely intentional) his version has just been released.

Sam Cooke (the original).

Just listening to those two recordings (play Seal's first if you can) exemplifies what I'm talking about I guess, on a professional (and especially Vocal) level.

This topic always just depresses me. So what if they were really good musicians? Would they have been treated better? Made more money? Here in Nashville, there are lots of great players, who can take instrumental rides. And they play for tips, or maybe $25 plus tips. Your musician hacks who you went to go see probably did better than that. But so what? If Nashville's finest lower broadway musicians had played that gig, sure, you might have enjoyed yourself more as you listened to them, but what would have been in it for the musicians? I'm not sure what's more disappointing, listening to less than average musicians and wonder why they ever got a stage and an audience, or listening to great musicians and wonder why they never get a real stage or audience.

We've now entered a whole different aspect of the greater issue. I think at some point, we have to live in the moment and focus directly on the musicians in front of us without regard of how or why they got there.

A lot also comes down to where your career is. The guys in Nashville, I'd guess are more interested in making it. The Duo here in Troy is likely just happy to be playing for an audience.

Extend that to guys like us. I've done the local band thing, the touring band thing the college town tours thing, the opening for the big names acts on the down side thing, the studio thing, etc. Do I wish I could still "make it?" In some ways yes...but I have a really great life.

I have a great family, a wonderful marriage and the greatest job in the world. The Pens won the Cup! My yard is mowed, Patty and I both have new bikes and are riding every day. I've lost 31 pounds in the last month, etc. Would I upset all of that to "make it..." I don't know...

This angle on the discussion gets too broad too fast. Your points are all strong, no doubt about it but these are pretty big issues we're kicking around...

Good comments...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 06-21-2009).]

I don't feel the debate should be about "SHOULD one take a ride on a melody" or "SHOULD one jazz up a melody line" or "when is it appropriate?" I'm wondering how many of today's performing musicians are actually "capable" of taking a "ride" on a set of chords?

My original statement was "...the most common deficiency I see in maybe 95% of live music I come upon. No instrumental "rides.” No one knows how to play their instruments anymore."

It wasn't about when is it in good taste to take a ride. And if you're NOT taking a "ride" then you're pretty much going to sound like every Tom, Dick, and Harry that plays the tune. What's going to set you apart and make people want to come back and hear YOU again?

Lucky

Just what you said. He never strays from the song structure. You can almost hear the melody in between his notes.

I think this fellow is a fine player.....and tasty as Twinkies. Does anyone know what keyboards he is using? And what's the playing environment? Is he doing a demo, or just playing background music for a function?

Lucky

I couldn't resist adding my own pet peeve. Yes, they DO do something. They turn around, and with their backs to the audience they take a swig of bottled water. How can you connect with an audience when you're too busy guzzling?

I guess this is supposed to be the new "cool" though, together with sandals, no socks, and seven days worth of beard.

Lucky

Its really quite simple. The duo got the gig because they are cheap or friends of the owner. What people will accept as musical entertainment is getting lower all the time.
A few years back a new Italian restaurant opened near me. A friend said "you have to check it out, they have a singer/piano player" So I went and in about 10 seconds I knew something was weird. Here's a guy sitting behind a curtain draped around what looked like a piano, singing, drinking and smoking. After a few songs I couldn't help myself so like in the Wizard of Oz I had to look behind the curtain. Here he is, sitting at a table with a CD player, ashtray (this is right before the no smoking rule) and a drink. Singing to CD backround tracks!!
Talk about PA quality. HA! A 6 channel Peavey mixer and one 12" speaker, on a stand facing backwards so he wouldn't be too loud in the dining area! Both pieces were left over from his band days in the 70's.
Guy was working there four nights a week and the customers liked it because he took their requests. Turns out I knew the guy from long ago and he used to have a band where he played guitar and did a lot of Sinatra. Told him I'd rather see him sitting on a stool with his guitar and doing something real and he laughed and said "why bother"
I can fine no restaurant work around here and the parties I do mostly could care less if I bring my keyboard or not. DJ'ing is whats expected these days and it makes me good $$$. Its amazing what they will pay to listen to CD's. Even the NH gigs are hiring DJ's
Still trying to keep the live thing going.

There are a lot of "pickers and grinners" working in Lexington. For years, the top money at patios and retaurants has been $150.00 for a 3-4 hour gig.

About 5 years ago, a bunch of folks came into the area and offered to do the restaurant gigs for $75.00 and that has been the scale for many of the 2nd tier places.


Most players have an acoustic guitar, and read lyrics and chords off of a music stand.
Their material is chosen because it fits their playing ability...three or 4 chords. It works for several reasons:

* About 10 years ago, a law was passed making it possible for any establishment claiming to sell 50% of their volume in food to get a very low-cost booze license. Previously, the licence was upwards of $75,000, depending on availabiity. All of a sudden, every corner establishment had a single or duo providing music. It was part of the mix, but not the draw.

* "Lowest common denominator". All the new places with booze licences didn't expect or get much from the entertainment. This opened up the field for the "three chord hoard/herd", and there are probably 200 in the area competing for 50 jobs. The result is price-cutting and back-stabbing on a major level.

Not many venues in the area use music or entertainment as a draw anymore.

I see where Rory is coming from. I used to travel to Nashville several times a month, and I heard great players working for nothing
on every corner.The guys working around here couldn't even cary these folks cases. Supply and demand, I guess.

But don't give up on live entertainment. All it takes is one. Went to a little after hours
place last Thursday and heard an outstanding young lady on piano who could really play, sing and entertain.

That made wading through the "slop" a little more tollerable. I just wish that choosing at least correctly performed, good to listen to music was more of a priority for local club owners.


Russ

P.S. Diki, you and I are thinking alike relative to solos and how to approach them....soloing with styles and the challenges there, etc. You nailed it!




[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 06-22-2009).]

About 5 years ago, a bunch of folks came into the area and offered to do the restaurant gigs for $75.00 and that has been the scale for many of the 2nd tier places.

This is the problem. For years, I loved playing in clubs and restaurants. I always had a big following and full dance floors. But these days I'm making 100 to 150 per hour in retirement communities and my private party fee is more than that and my calendar stays full. I still run into the old crowd and they're always asking where I'm playing. I tell them I can no longer justify playing in a night club. There's too much other stuff going on. Who would have thunk it?

Joe


[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 06-22-2009).][/B][/QUOTE]



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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Joe, I'm, with you man...Same thing Gary has been telling me for a few years now. Never before have I been so tempted to drop the band stuff and just focus on my solo things...

Less stress, just as busy, better money, etc...

I know I'll finish out the year with the band but after NYE, things will be different, I think...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 06-22-2009).]

Doing solo work is tempting, but, man is it GREAT to play with others. That unspoken communication between players of like ability and attitude is awsome.

Solos are easier, but I'm not ready to go that route yet. Besides, the two other members of my group are my son (bass) and grandson( drums).


Maby someday...


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 06-23-2009).]

You're right Russ, but the guys can't/won't rehearse which means new material is done on the fly. Yes, you CAN do it that way, but one shot a week at a tune is hardly enough to really develop it, so you all fall back on safe, predicable approaches.

The demand for bands like mine in Dayton is also shrinking. The 70+ crowds are thinning fast and clubs like my solo or duo stuff just as much...

My struggle with this is that I'm heading one way while the other guys seem to be going a different direction. By the end of the night have we kept the dance floor filled? Always...Are the guests really happy-sure seems so...one of my bandmates says "There sure are a lot of really good musical moments..." to me after most gigs...I agreeing with him less and less. I hear a band that knows exactly how to entertain our crowd that doesn't seem interested in keeping things fresh. They are perfectly content to pick tunes from the same 150 or so we've been playing all along. I'm not. Sure we have to keep things in the context of a dance band, but its less & less fulfilling for me.

To introduce a new tune, I'll usually send out the sheet music to everyone...with a video link or 2 of versions I like and want to build off of. I'll also include comments.
More than once, someone forgets about it...or someone looks at the sheet music realizes they know the tune and figures they're all set. Its frustrating...

They are solid guys...cause me no major problems, ever in over ten years of gigging with them. I think they like gigging now more than they do working on new music. Remember the thread about the sax guy and the issues with his soprano. There was never a word from him about improving or what sound do you want..it was just, to paraphrase, you're nuts-everybody sounds like this, etc...

Like I said, no decision has been made yet, but I'm leaning towards playing out all this years dates, then shutting down and making them all total free agents. Maybe finding a different sideman to do duos with would be super refreshing for me. Maybe putting together an acoustic duo and putting an act together with that is part of my future.

I can't just play the same stuff, the same way for the next 10 years.

Russ-Give me a call when you have a chance, you have my number...



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Bill in Dayton

Bill, I really understand where you're coming from. 1/2 or more of my jobs are singles. The group jobs go well because we have no horns. I love horns, but the use of horn sections increases rehearsal time exponentially. That's no criticism of the players...just the nature of the task.


Just for fun, if the budget allows, I add a guitar, vibes or horn to my arranger jobs (sometimes both). These are folks I've known for years. If they're comfortable they play the head of the tune on the second turn. I come back on the bridge.
If it's a jazz gig, we "trade fours" or do extensions, modulations, etc. After a while, we're "joined at the hip" on the material without having to woodshed a lot.

Like you, I'm no longer interested in being a section player. Just don't have the time and the patience.

This way, I get a little of both approaches.


I do understand the hassles of working in groups.

But, what fun!


Russ