I disagree with that in general. I think the art of soloing is very personal and there are many different methods and styles that can be used.

For me, I favor a very traditional style of a lead instrument's first pass being generally a regurgitation of the main theme or melody. I rarely go past this single solo. Sometimes I'll come up with something for the front half then sing it out. In the real jazz world, as verses pass, the solo is grown or expanded, sometimes to unrecognizable degrees. The Jazz idiom lends itself to longer length versions of tunes than other styles. Developing a solo over a few verses is one stock practice. Another would be to throw the solos around the band, which is a different kind of approach.

In my musical world, I never venture into what I'd call "long form jazz." I've got one verse to play something that compliments my vocals and sets up the next section of the tune.

I appreciate those cats that can "get way out there" for X number of verses, but I've only rarely enjoyed it. Its seems at some point to become more technical ability rather than substance. I'll readily allow that maybe I just don't get it, but that's not my world.

A few years ago I hired a sub bass player who was reported to be a monster. He was great but when we threw him a solo I couldn't follow him and neither could my dancers. I think for a ballroom crowd, better to stay close to the vest. If your in a jazz room, then the sky's the limit...

I love alot of that stuff, but some of it just escapes me.

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 06-21-2009).]

But, while there are many individual ways of soloing, I must respectfully disagree. Repetition of the head is NOT 'soloing'. No matter how many instruments you play it on. If there IS only one pass for a solo (particularly if you sing the head, and intend to sing after the solo), then the sky is the limit, withing the taste boundaries of the style (no-one wants to hear free-form or bebop craziness if the style is straight ahead). But simply playing the head AGAIN... sorry, but I can't really recognize that as 'soloing'.

It's also just that, here at SZ, we aren't playing for dancers, or jazz crowds. Just ourselves. Perhaps an opportunity to play things the way WE want, rather than to an audience's expectations...

While jazz can take it 'outside' to the extremes, even most 'pop' instrumentalists rarely play the head as straightforwardly as we often hear on SZ. There's usually a fair bit of decoration and invention at phrase endings, etc..

One of the harder things to do on an arranger, though, is that often, in bigband or many pop instrumentals, one section will play the melody very simply, while the soloist dances around it. Not so easy to pull off in style mode... But a combination of first pass recording with the simple line, then overdub with the soloist can make for some very effective instrumentals. Or vocal version, too...

And, as example, I offer this great rendition, posted by Randy on another thread...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XFwd-xu3Dw&feature=channel

Even when he's playing the head, there's a HUGE amount of tasty decoration, and the solos manage to combine virtuosity without alienating the crowd...

I guess what I'm saying is that a very straightforward solo with subtle decorative elements can be fine. Sometimes the simplicity of just a different instrument playing the melody with little flair is perfect. Its so easy to ignore the beauty of what you already have, that the song doesn't need any significant improv, etc.

To move toward the pop style...Most pop fans seem to feel that Mariah Carey is at or near the top of contemporary pop female vocalists. I find all the trills, grace notes, and extraneous vocals gymnastics as some impressive technique, but rarely do I find it really adds to my impression of the song. Its the style vs. substance issue. Now we've seemingly got a whole generation of new pop singers trying to match her and its a huge turn off.

That said, in full disclosure, I've always thought of myself as a rhythm KB guy. I am strong when it comes to chord progressions, passing tones, supporting a singer or another instrumentalist. I SUCK at playing leads. I can get by a few times a night playing some stock boogie-woogie things or a nice repetition of the melody in a tasteful way, but that's it.

Not to get too focused on me, but my background is singing. Years ago I wanted to learn how to play well enough to support my vocals and I learned that. Now, I've had sax, trumpet and guitar players, not to mention my own drummer/bass player say I'm easy to work with because they know I'm not going to try and step on anyone. I just want it to sound good.



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Bill in Dayton

Great topic.

Great posts so far.

Something that hasn't been mentioned re Live playing/singing (unless I've missed it, or it's inference) is one word:

Commitment.

It sounds a little nebulous, but it means a lot to me. Basically what I see these days (or more accurately hear about from our audiences) is that people get up on stage, play a song, and that's it. No Entertainment or eye contact, no (real) feel or groove, or spark, no risk taking, or soul.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, that's what seems missing to me when I see a live performance (particularly from Local Musicians/Singers) and even many *big league* Players/Singers.

As an example of what I'm talking about in the aforementioned "big league" - everyone should listen to two recordings of the same song:

"A Change is Gonna Come".

PLEASE everyone if you can, download/Youtube/research the two versions I currently know of:

SEAL (A British "Soul" singer - the ""'s are definitely intentional) his version has just been released.

Sam Cooke (the original).

Just listening to those two recordings (play Seal's first if you can) exemplifies what I'm talking about I guess, on a professional (and especially Vocal) level.

This topic always just depresses me. So what if they were really good musicians? Would they have been treated better? Made more money? Here in Nashville, there are lots of great players, who can take instrumental rides. And they play for tips, or maybe $25 plus tips. Your musician hacks who you went to go see probably did better than that. But so what? If Nashville's finest lower broadway musicians had played that gig, sure, you might have enjoyed yourself more as you listened to them, but what would have been in it for the musicians? I'm not sure what's more disappointing, listening to less than average musicians and wonder why they ever got a stage and an audience, or listening to great musicians and wonder why they never get a real stage or audience.

We've now entered a whole different aspect of the greater issue. I think at some point, we have to live in the moment and focus directly on the musicians in front of us without regard of how or why they got there.

A lot also comes down to where your career is. The guys in Nashville, I'd guess are more interested in making it. The Duo here in Troy is likely just happy to be playing for an audience.

Extend that to guys like us. I've done the local band thing, the touring band thing the college town tours thing, the opening for the big names acts on the down side thing, the studio thing, etc. Do I wish I could still "make it?" In some ways yes...but I have a really great life.

I have a great family, a wonderful marriage and the greatest job in the world. The Pens won the Cup! My yard is mowed, Patty and I both have new bikes and are riding every day. I've lost 31 pounds in the last month, etc. Would I upset all of that to "make it..." I don't know...

This angle on the discussion gets too broad too fast. Your points are all strong, no doubt about it but these are pretty big issues we're kicking around...

Good comments...

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 06-21-2009).]

I don't feel the debate should be about "SHOULD one take a ride on a melody" or "SHOULD one jazz up a melody line" or "when is it appropriate?" I'm wondering how many of today's performing musicians are actually "capable" of taking a "ride" on a set of chords?

My original statement was "...the most common deficiency I see in maybe 95% of live music I come upon. No instrumental "rides.” No one knows how to play their instruments anymore."

It wasn't about when is it in good taste to take a ride. And if you're NOT taking a "ride" then you're pretty much going to sound like every Tom, Dick, and Harry that plays the tune. What's going to set you apart and make people want to come back and hear YOU again?

Lucky

Just what you said. He never strays from the song structure. You can almost hear the melody in between his notes.

I think this fellow is a fine player.....and tasty as Twinkies. Does anyone know what keyboards he is using? And what's the playing environment? Is he doing a demo, or just playing background music for a function?

Lucky

I couldn't resist adding my own pet peeve. Yes, they DO do something. They turn around, and with their backs to the audience they take a swig of bottled water. How can you connect with an audience when you're too busy guzzling?

I guess this is supposed to be the new "cool" though, together with sandals, no socks, and seven days worth of beard.

Lucky