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#263531 - 05/21/09 04:20 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Kids" also don't have two grand (sterling) to spend on a keyboard. The future, if there is one, for a "youth" arranger segment, is surely in comparatively low cost models like Roland's new GW8.

For as long as the high-end market belongs entirely to those of us in Europe who are north of thirty with plenty of disposable income (and that's mainly semi-pros whose gigs pay for their kit, plus the one-finger pensioner contingent), the flagship arranger offerings from all the manufacturers will remain unchanged.

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#263532 - 05/21/09 05:02 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Why do you guys think the budget workstation market is so hot right now These budget workstations (such as the Juno-G that you can't really ignore with its latest update) which has turned it into a budget powerhouse. Fantom sound engine.., 128 note poly, large screen, 4 track audio recorder that syncs with the midi track--and will do a full audio/midi mixdown internally-not to mention all the effects available for audio too, 16 trk seq, real synth engine, FULL SAMPLING ect, are offering more to the youth.

Look at the M50 and MO6 too. Both of those boards are loaded with features. The youth are going to the budget models not just for the price.., but THE SOUND. These models also have good acoustic instruments too (MO line having arranger signature voices). They not only cover the classics quite well.., but the arps, patterns, ect on them are up to date not to forget UP TO DATE DRUMS.

Another HUGE thing to take into consideration that sets these semi-pro workstations ahead for the youth compared to the semi-pro arranger is SOFTWARE EDITORS! Many of these semi-pro workstations are BUNDLE PACKS. You get the synth, dedicated software editor, and seq software all in one package for a VERY low price. They're sometimes called "a budget studio in a box".

These software editors are VERY popular because they allow you to use your workstation like a VST for your software. The typical CPU killing load is handled externally by the keyboard meaning those on a budget most likely don't have to upgrade their computer either. You get more seq power and your computer can breathe easy

You don't find these types of features on the semi pro arranger. You don't find these things shippng to not only cover the classics, but modern styles of music. You don't see the developers shipping semi pro arrangers with dedicated software editors bundled with seq applicatons. You don't see any of this stuff. Yamaha makes a low end arranger that ships with a bundled seq app.., but they refuse to call it an arranger though.

I don't think the makers have any interest in updating these arrangers. They know if they do the crowd they have been catering to for years will get pissed. They KNOW the youth won't pay those prices too. Think about it for a moment.

Yamaha PSR-S900 costs nearly $1,700. Sure it covers the classics but doesn't hold a candle to anything modern when you look at it's budget workstation cousin on the other side of the fence.., Yamaha MO6. MO's poly may be less, no harmonizer.., but it's sound set and up to date patterns, synth engine, way more advanced seq, and arps are far beyond the S-900. It too is plastic.., but built better than the S-900 and it too has the full SOFTWARE PACKAGE that attracts the youth. The MO's selling for just over $1,000. Hundreds less than the S-900.., if you're a younger individual on a budget looking for MODERN flavor and a Yamaha fan.., which way would you go?

What I've noticed is the makers seem to think that ARRANGER LOVERS ON A BUDGET have more money than WORKSTATION LOVES ON A BUDGET. Broke is just broke.., regardless of what type of keyboard you play



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#263533 - 05/21/09 05:33 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
I don't think the makers have any interest in updating these arrangers. They know if they do the crowd they have been catering to for years will get pissed. They KNOW the youth won't pay those prices too.


Exactly my point.

Quote:
...built better than the S-900


What isn't?

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#263534 - 05/21/09 06:03 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Here's the thing. People on the forum IMO too often assume that modern music is all about SYNTh type voices and that's NOT true. Acoustic instruments are HUGE in modern music. Hip Hop thrives on orchestral samples. It's not at all uncommon to hear the same type of brass, strings, woodwind, and acoustic pianos patches found on current arrangers in modern music.

Look at it like this. With these modern styles you gotta "bump it". It's in the beat. All these arrangers today (even some on the lower end) already have the good quality acoustic instruments needed for those styles. What they DON'T have is the drums. Lets not even take styles into consideration at the moment. Modern players typically write the majority of their work from scratch.., but will also take advantage of patterns and arps.., but the thing that really gives their tracks Ummph on these workstations is DRUMS.

The PSR-S900 could EASILY make a modern style just by adding ONE let me say that again ONE good quality hip hop kit. One hip hop kit that had better samples than what you find now. Hip Hop kits aren't typically played in the same fashion we see done with acoustic kits on arrangers. There's 61 keys there just waiting for a few good samples. All Yamaha would have to do is assign some good bass drums to one section of keys, snares to the next, rim shots, and IMPORTANTLY.., GOOD CLAPS, and a few other one shot samples. There's 61 keys.., I'm sure using a few of those keys for some better quality modern kits wouldn't be so hard.

Just ONE decent modern kit would open up a whole world of modern style creation to the buyer who wants an arranger to use to create modern styles on something like an S-900. A few kits would be great..., but just ONE well sampled kit would make a huge difference. The S-900 ALREADY has a KILLER set of acoustic samples that would sound AMAZING in modern styles. It just doesn't have ONE kit worthy of modern style production.

Arrangers CAN make modern music..., and do it well. The makers just have to get over themselves.., allow their divisions to break bread at the same table every so often and either hire a few new styles writers.., OR allow some writers from the workstation division to play in the same ball pit.

It wouldn't take a major overhaul on the current arranger either. Hell 15 good and well programed modern styles (that use just ONE good quality hip hop kit) would make a huge difference.

The keyboard makers just have to be willing to let go of this age old business practice of theirs. You can only milk a cow so much.., she'll eventually dry up.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#263535 - 05/21/09 07:01 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I suspect the next S-series will be a smaller version of the Tyros3...much like PSR-3000 and S900 were of the T1 and T2 respectively.

It is targeted at those who want some Tyros sounds and features, at a lesser price...and because it is, I don't see them adding anything other than some of what's in the T3.

Besides, $1700 or thereabouts, is a lot more than most younger buyers can afford.

Something under a grand would be more likely to appeal...something on the order of a new type DJX would be perfect, and who knows, something of that order could be in the works.

Roland has to pull up their socks and get with the program before they can compete at all...nothing in their arrangers remotely comparable to SA voices, let alone SA2, and nothing like mega voices either....even Korg's DNC is far ahead of them.

I think Roland has lost the edge it had years ago with the G and E-series....their sounds are still okay, but far from leading edge like they used to be...they'll just have to get used to the snickers from Korg and Yammmie owners for now, I guess.

I do know my S900 sounds so good, and is such a blast to play, that even I am jealous of me.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#263536 - 05/21/09 07:34 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
To be honest Ian.., when you compare the feature list of say the Juno-G to the S-900 in terms of what it offers to the buyer.., I think that in itself is probably one of the best examples of "how can Yamaha justify that price".

Sure..., I know the S-900 is an arranger Ian.., but you gotta look at it a little differently though. Yes the S-900 has the harmonizer and color screen.., but really break down the core of these two BUDGET semi-pro models for a moment. The S-900 is a budget Tyros.., the Juno-G had replaced the Xa and became the budget Fantom.

-Both have 128 note poly

-The S-900 offers USB audio recording.., well the Juno-G blows that away by giving you a full 4 track audio recorder that BPM syncs with the midi tracks and is FULLY editable.., not just a one shot recorder, but a 4 track with physical sliders and many options that will even do a full mix down internally of audio and midi.., which by the way could be used to add VOCAL HARMONY to sequences as the audio will BPM sync to the midi.

-The S-900 has NO expansion options.., but the Juno G's sample memory AND patch set can be expanded. Not to mention that many NEW features that have been added with OS updates.

-The Juno G's actually built better than the-S900.

-The Juno's patch editing way surpasses the S-900.

The Juno-G is exactly what the S-900 is to the "budget buyer" in the arranger market.., but the Juno G is more PRO orientated.., sells for less (much less).., is built better, offers JUST AS MUCH bang for the buck if not more in terms of HARDWARE when comparing it to the S-900.

Yet the Juno-G can be had for less than $1,000 while the plastic PSR-S900 sells for $1,700!

It's pointless anymore to keep blaming all this on number of units sold. ARRANGERS ARE A HUGE MARKET. The US is such a small part of a HUGE number of arranger sales across the globe. Arrangers of all levels literally saturate the keyboard market globally.

What's really upsetting is that older arranger players so often (for a lack of a better word) discriminate against the YOUNGER GENERATION that DO want arrangers. Workstations aren't just being used for modern styles.., they're EVERYWHERE in EVERY style of music out there.

Yet so often the older generation discriminates against the youth showing their obvious discontent for anything modern on THEIR arrangers. The YOUTH want modern sounding arrangers.., but are forced to turn to the workstations because the older generation won't let them in.., and are VERY vocal about it. THAT'S JUST WRONG! Why is it no problem for workstations to be used in EVERY aspect of music.., but not ok for arrangers to give the youth what they want?

What's so upsetting is how the arranger makers know and continue to MILK that older generation and will continue to cater to you guys because they know you'll CONTINUE to pay these unjustified price differences.

It's time for a change..., it won't even take a major overhaul. Hell the GW-8 has multiple models that ALL have the sambe base in styles sections.., but have a special style section devoted to a region. How hard would it be to add ANOTHER category to modern arrangers.., and include one or two modern sounding drum kits? How hard would it be to write a few modern styles that don't reek of cheese?

It can be done.., but the older generation won't allow it to happen.., and the keyboard makers will keep catering to you guys because "apparently from their history of arranger sales and THEIR target market" your genertation is easier to milk. That's not me saying that.., the keyboard makers clearly have this position.

Workstations are designed to cover EVERYTHING out there. How often do you hear workstation buyes go up in arms because their $2,000+ synth is also capable of producing Polka.., Waltz, Jazz, and Big Band, ect. These current workstations produce the SAME quality of music in those styles as your arranger.., but the users aren't forcing genre specific buyers out.

There's no reason these arrangers can't cater to a younger generation AND the older crowd. I think the problem is that the makers know that if they do make them.., they'll have to build them better..., and price them accordingly.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#263537 - 05/21/09 08:09 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Here's something to think about fellas. Lets just say any one of the major keyboard makers actually produced a modern sounding arranger keyboard (even on the pro end)..., and they gave that arranger the exact same fluff and buff pre-release hype that they do to arrangers now.

The US may be only a small part of the arranger market for upper and semi pro models.., but if you want to see that number climb sky high..., watch how fast those numbers would go up in the US if a MODERN SOUNDING ARRANGER was produced and marketed with all the hype.

The shere volume of sales from the DJX in the US proves that! Which guys and gals by the way is "offically called" the PSR-D1 The DJX is a PSR and has always been a part of the PSR family too..., just had a different flavor to it.., which clearly was successful. There were times that many online retailers couldn't even keep the DJX (PSR-D1) in stock here in the US because of a huge rush of orders.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#263538 - 05/21/09 08:30 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8963
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I suspect the next S-series will be a smaller version of the Tyros3...much like PSR-3000 and S900 were of the T1 and T2 respectively.

It is targeted at those who want some Tyros sounds and features, at a lesser price...and because it is, I don't see them adding anything other than some of what's in the T3.

Besides, $1700 or thereabouts, is a lot more than most younger buyers can afford.

Something under a grand would be more likely to appeal...something on the order of a new type DJX would be perfect, and who knows, something of that order could be in the works.

Roland has to pull up their socks and get with the program before they can compete at all...nothing in their arrangers remotely comparable to SA voices, let alone SA2, and nothing like mega voices either....even Korg's DNC is far ahead of them.

I think Roland has lost the edge it had years ago with the G and E-series....their sounds are still okay, but far from leading edge like they used to be...they'll just have to get used to the snickers from Korg and Yammmie owners for now, I guess.

I do know my S900 sounds so good, and is such a blast to play, that even I am jealous of me.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-21-2009).]


Ian, Ian, Ian.....Of course Yamaha has "some " great sounds..but you are hand picking a select "few".....We Roland "fans" can do the same with our G70's...as an example, pianos, scat/vocals, Drums, and any expansion board sound....totally are superior to Yamaha and Korg...


"Snickers"..believe me, if there is any snickering..it is coming from the Roland G70 users...you know ..the guys that really know the score, when it comes to all around quality, sounds, editing, and tools for the "pro" user..

I would be just as content with keeping what I have....and watch the other 's {Yamaha, Korg etc}, try to convince their users, that they have the superior instruments.....they DO NOT!!!..

What most folks are not aware of...are the features that make playing , editing , sequencing, ( still the best on board sequencer)..a great go to piano, a great drawbar organ, a great vocal harmonizer.....these are things ...collectively...the other's have not obtained...yet..

Take a realistic look at what is available, before you think Roland has any catching up to do...I think Roland is also "snickering"...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#263539 - 05/21/09 08:32 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I don't know why we keep saying that younger players are too poor to buy TOTL arrangers... Unless you are talking slacker teenagers! Who the hell do you think buys MoXS8/7/6's? FantomG8's, G7's etc.? Oasys's, K2600's, Nord Stage's, and the myriad of keyboards that come in in the $2500-3500+ range? Senior citizens?

IF... arrangers could make modern sounding music, they would buy them. They can't, end of story. Price is irrelevant.

And older arranger players happily put up with useless genre's in their arrangers (can't remember the last time I ever used any schlager, and most on this forum have never touched the techno section ), they wouldn't give a damn as long as what they DO use is in there!

But if the arranger makers want the younger player (<30), it wouldn't hurt to have a whole separate model geared towards this segment. First, that won't piss off the old farts, and it would allow them to drop the ballroom and polka sections. In fact, I've LONG said that arrangers don't NEED a ROM section any more (most of them can be changed, anyway)... get rid of the panel graphics that say 'Ballroom' and 'Bossa Samba' and just have numbers. Now they wouldn't even NEED two models. Just load up the Contemporary set for an MI store, and load up the 'Oldies' set for a Mom and Pop old fart store...

Kids won't use arrangers until the SOUND like WS's. And if making music on them is as easy as we find making OUR music on them (which is a bloody sight easier than how WS's make it), they won't CARE how much they cost...

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#263540 - 05/21/09 08:39 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Right on Diki... I think people on the forum often categorize younger generation as drop out pot heads with no money. The younger generation ARE dropping big money on the high end workstations.

The reason the DJX was so popular was because it WAS an arranger that well..., sounded like a workstation.

I should post a demo for you guys using one of the most medicore drum kits on my VERY inexpensive Zoom StreetBoxx. Hell.., ANY arranger could benefit from just TWO of the kits found on my Zoom Streetboxx.., and they're not big in terms of memory either.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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