SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#263551 - 05/21/09 11:18 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
Any one of them could do it Ian. Someone just has to take the step and DO IT. Yamaha took a shot and was hugely successful with it as you and I both know the DJX tickled a lot of toes

I think YAMAHA should be the one to step up and do it AGAIN. They had great success with it before.., but I'll say that when I was in retail.., I got whispers from reps that the DJX line in the US did cut into sales of the upper gear (more than expected really)

Let me ask you something Ian... I've played the S-900 numerous times (sounds freakin great too).., but there's one section I never really looked at with the S-900. I know you can do basic patch editing with the S-900.., but will the S-900 allow you to do basic editing with the drum kits? Can you go into a preset.., and adjust the level, tuning, and panning of the individual parts of a kit on the S-900..?


You are missing something huge here.
Younger players don't want to play COVER tunes. The don;t want Prepackaged songs

they want to put the parts together themselves. The Zoom allows that. We sell them and the guys who buy them are not about the presets. They are about the VOICES. Even in a production the beats are just a piece.

They prefer the Motifs of the world where they get the best of all worlds. 4 part "styles" programmed in MODERN arrangements that can be very easily edited to a degree even the Tyros would not even come close to and with an ease of the same magnitude.

They can create everything from scratch with editing possibilities they will never fully realize. Voice choices that are unlimited with 8 elements per voice to edit and put together in combinations.....

what I am getting at is CREATIVITY....Arrangers have a huge percentage of their content ALREADY CREATED.

Workstations are BLANK slates with some creative jump off points. As a hack songwriter even I could not do what I wanted to do on the Tyros alone. I was forced to do what IT COULD DO..The Motif is the exact opposite.

And the price of entry for all that creativity is even LESS than the arrangers!!!

No I don't see youth running to any Arrangers above the 413's of the world in any great numbers. Arrangers market are the HOME ORGAN players and we the age market of that demographic today ....as does Yamaha.....
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

Top
#263552 - 05/21/09 11:26 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Yeah..., but there are just as many out there into modern styles (who like arranger players) look to auto accomp and preset styles/patterns because they are unable to record everything from scratch. How many of those radio hits out there do you think were actually created from scratch Most of that stuff is just a sampled.., sliced and diced loop provided by another label.., with a little added flavor from the artist.

Many people out there actually rely heavily on the preset patterns found on these workstations. The DJX was so popular because well.., it has out of the box up to date "instant gratification" styles. It didn't take long for midi gurus to open the DJX up for midi apps either.

The thing is.., the need IS there. Someone just has to be willing to step up and meet that demand. Yamaha took a stab and was successful. Roland took a little stab at it with the EG-101. The need is there..., but with all do respect.., we have all the OLDER GENERATION arranger supporters who don't know the first thing about creating a modern style making all the noise saying NO don't do it. People who don't even play those style who (if those styles were available on an arranger) would simply ignore them as they would any other preset style that doesetn't interest them.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263553 - 05/21/09 11:30 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
It's hard to say why they don't contract out.

My job is to do clinics and demos...mostly just helping the people who bought Yamaha arrangers and CVP how to use the different features and functions, and to show potential clients what the instrument can do.

I do stay in touch with head office and voice any concerns or questions.

All I can do is offer suggestions, and I do; but, I certainly have nothing to do with the outcome.

I'm sure Yamaha and Roland are looking at all their options, and constantly checking out the market...I'm thinking if there was anything out there that would make them more profits, they'd be already evaluating the pros and cons.

It's a business, after all.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

Top
#263554 - 05/21/09 11:54 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
I'm keeping my fingers crossed..... Yamaha could actually reach back and grab what they already made really. Even the dated DJX has some samples in those kits (and the presets) that would do wonders for the current line. They could just update the style set from that board.., put those as a special section on a new model and be done with it (carrying over some DJX kits though)
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263555 - 05/21/09 01:12 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
Yeah..., but there are just as many out there into modern styles (who like arranger players) look to auto accomp and preset styles/patterns because they are unable to record everything from scratch. How many of those radio hits out there do you think were actually created from scratch Most of that stuff is just a sampled.., sliced and diced loop provided by another label.., with a little added flavor from the artist.

Many people out there actually rely heavily on the preset patterns found on these workstations. The DJX was so popular because well.., it has out of the box up to date "instant gratification" styles. It didn't take long for midi gurus to open the DJX up for midi apps either.

The thing is.., the need IS there. Someone just has to be willing to step up and meet that demand. Yamaha took a stab and was successful. Roland took a little stab at it with the EG-101. The need is there..., but with all do respect.., we have all the OLDER GENERATION arranger supporters who don't know the first thing about creating a modern style making all the noise saying NO don't do it. People who don't even play those style who (if those styles were available on an arranger) would simply ignore them as they would any other preset style that doesetn't interest them.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]


Yea they did and do use pre recorded loops. but those loops were often made on worlstations not arrangers. I know kids who sell those loops and none would think of creating them for or on an arranger. there is professional gear for that purpose. Fantoms. M3s, Akai, Motifs which are LIMTLESS.

From what I have seen and heard, the kids making today's music would rahter use CD loops and Acid or Fruty Loops before buying a prepackaed 4 mode "dance" style they cannot manipulate. One CD can provide 1000's of editable loops. Far more than a $1600 Arranger, but not more than a Motif or Fantom can generate,

I am older and even I know the limitations of Arrangers insofar as ace,electronica,Hip Hop et al music. I also know the TOOLS to create that music are ALREADY THERE and LESS EXPENSIVE!!

It's really a no brainer why kids don;t buy arrangers and takes about 3 minuites of thought and a knowledge of the tools that ARE available to do the same to a far greater extent.

Arrangers are sold to the traditional Home Organist market and OMBs playing popular songs fomr a wide swath of time and styles.
That is their strength....People don;t create hit songs on Arrangers. At least I don't know of any Charted songs that were done on a Tyros using Yamaha Styles....in any modern genre. On the contrary they RECREAT songs already made popular/



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

Top
#263556 - 05/21/09 01:20 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Kingfrog.., NO THEY WERE NOT created primarily on workstations. I suggest you spend a day in the field doing this style of music before you comment on how it's made.., rather than going by "from what you see or what you've heard".

Many of these loops created are done and produced WITH SOFTWARE! Sometimes the workstations get used.., but the majority of the radio hits are software produced and their beats have come from samples and loops done using software. It's not just modern styles either. You'd be surprised how many alternative, and rock songs today are done using software. Even some country hits have a lot of software influence.

I mean no disrespect Kingfrog.., but you are actually an excellent example of an older individual who has no experience in the field commenting on a style of music you do not produce.

The thing is YOU COULD hear arrangers being used.., but ONLY if the makers decide to break the wall between them and let developers on both sides share a few things every now and then.

It was only natural that DJ's were eating up the DJX and it wasn't uncommon to find them being used in clubs. There IS a market for this. Like I said.., Yamaha did it once.., it was successful (possibly a little too successful), but later killed the line.

There is a newer version of the DJX.., which is the MM6.., BUT the MM6's package isn't as "hard" as it was on the DJX.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263557 - 05/21/09 03:02 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
Kingfrog.., NO THEY WERE NOT created primarily on workstations. I suggest you spend a day in the field doing this style of music before you comment on how it's made.., rather than going by "from what you see or what you've heard".

Many of these loops created are done and produced WITH SOFTWARE! Sometimes the workstations get used.., but the majority of the radio hits are software produced and their beats have come from samples and loops done using software. It's not just modern styles either. You'd be surprised how many alternative, and rock songs today are done using software. Even some country hits have a lot of software influence.

I mean no disrespect Kingfrog.., but you are actually an excellent example of an older individual who has no experience in the field commenting on a style of music you do not produce.

The thing is YOU COULD hear arrangers being used.., but ONLY if the makers decide to break the wall between them and let developers on both sides share a few things every now and then.

It was only natural that DJ's were eating up the DJX and it wasn't uncommon to find them being used in clubs. There IS a market for this. Like I said.., Yamaha did it once.., it was successful (possibly a little too successful), but later killed the line.

There is a newer version of the DJX.., which is the MM6.., BUT the MM6's package isn't as "hard" as it was on the DJX.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]


Do you really think one needs a PHD in Eletronica,Hip Hop. Trance etc.... to understand the way that music is CONSTRUCTED? Of course they are not ALL done on workstations...but they CAN be and many are indeed created on workstations. To think otherwise would be nieve. Modern music is not created in a traditional way in as much as It's "constructed" from pieces of what someone else may have already created. Arrangers don't apply either process well by design. One only has to have ears to understand that...... not practical experience. But yes I do have and have used Acid Pro for years and have a ton of Loop CDs. I have had to make that type of music for projects before. Its not my thing. Too much reptition and far more focused on the technical rather than "musical" for my tastes.

Four parts, an intro and ending in a style is hardly enough to construct a modern dance song. even I know that. No matter how MODERN the styles would be. Why would someone who creates that genre want to limit themselves to an Arranger? By its very purpose and design, an Arranger is extremily limiting in loop creation.

You cannot slice measures on an arranger,nor can you slice an audio file to create a loop. not even on the tyros Sampler. you cannot construct patterns in various time signatures easily and string them into a 16 track song. ..

Why would anyone looking to create modern dance music want an arranger?? It flies against exactly waht they are trying to create. Original work using pieces of already made loops...AND the means to create those loops from scratch..

The MODERN music "arrangers" are already out there!!! They are called Motif, M3, Fantom, Junos, Mini Mos.......

Yamaha has no reason to make a "dance" Arranger. Nor does Korg, or Roland. If they saw the market they would sieze it. They know the market far better than you or I.

Why anyone who creates dance music would want a pre packaege arrangement is beyond me. Its all about music CONSTRUCTION. Not the "already constructed". Yamaha and the rest of the big players in the gear world understands that.....why can't you?




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

Top
#263558 - 05/21/09 03:34 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Uh...., what the hell do you think the style sequencers are for? You're talking like it ends with the presets. You give the user good preset modern styles AND THE ABILITY to create their own it'll sell.

No you don't need a PHD to create modern music.., but there's a fine line between shit hop and hip hop. You get someone who programs modern styles that really hasn't a clue as to what's even half modern.., well you end up with every arranger currently on the market. You act like it's easy to create hip hop and modern styles. Anyone can throw down a beat.., but making it sound up to date and not like it's from the 1980's is another story.

Anyone can make a keyboard sing like Vanilla Ice.., but it takes great skill to create a style that bumps like what you hear on the radio KingFrog. You'd know that if this was actually your style of music.

What do you think the DJX was KingFrog! That arranger was designed soley for DANCE, TECHNO, HIP HOP, RAP, R&B, CLUB, HOUSE, DnB, and so on... Was the original a flop NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO it sold so freakin well it ain't even funny. It can be done.., Yamaha proved it with the success of the DJX line. It had its limitations.., but for the price it did what NO OTEHR ARRANGER TO DATE was capable of doing.... Hell.., Yamaha could put the entire DJX style set with all the kits as an add on to one of their arrangers and it would STILL sound more current than any other arranger out there. The DJX had a patch and style set that WAS NOT on any other Yamaha arranger. So many don't even realize that upper models released AFTER the DJX got some of their modern styles taken directly from the DJX.., they were revoiced.., but didn't sound half as good as they did on the DJX.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263559 - 05/21/09 03:45 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Who can do Hip-hop better than a Froggy can...?
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

Top
#263560 - 05/21/09 03:55 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
King frog i dont think you understand what can be done on a modern arranger. You are talking as though you cant create beats and loops or sample loops or import grooves from
sample CDs or sequence tracks linearly or import audio into modern arrangers. That can all be done right now. When ever we get into these discussion we act as though the way music is created on an arranger is different to how music is created on a workstation. If you were to open your mind a little you would see that the PA1x/2X for example isnt just like a work station IT IS A WORK STATION. I can sit at my brothers Motif XS and make soulful rnB or hip hop and i can sit at my PA1X and do pretty much the same. The difference is that with the PA1X in addition to working completely from scratch i can also use the styles as a 'suggestion' for what i want to create. The XS tries to do this but it is not as intutive as the PA1X.

The point i was making when i raised this thread was that the similarities between the way arrangers can be used (by people who actually get under the hood of the thing rather than just play and exchange a few months down the road) are very close . But the features that are inherently similar between what is deemed a work station and what is deemed an arranger are deliberately overlooked and confused by the manufacturers to maintain market segmentation.

The arranger market and the workstation market are deliberately kept separate to maximise the profitability from each range .

There is absiolutely no reason why every 'workstation 'produced shouldn't have arranger functions. It simply makes more commercial sense to keep the markets separate

Top
Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

Moderator:  Admin 



Help keep Synth Zone Online