SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 4 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#263541 - 05/21/09 08:39 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:


Yet the Juno-G can be had for less than $1,000 while the plastic PSR-S900 sells for $1,700!

]


Firstly, we are focusing and beating up on Yamaha, but it is quite clear that Roland's arrangers are doing the same thing...so let's be fair, please.

Yes, the Juno is cheaper than the E-50 or S900, but it isn't an arranger..it can't do what the S900, or Roland E-50 can do, which is let you sit down and play with a full backing band in real time, and following your chord changes.

That's what you pay for when you get an arranger...that's what is "extra".

You are comparing apples and oranges...maybe the line has blurred with arps and drum pattern, but the arranger still has a big edge when played as I described above.

The S-series is mini Tyros2 for less than half the price...a bargain, and everyone is aware of that fact.

Compare workstations against workstations...arrangers are still in another league, at least for now.

And, I think they are priced fairly for what they do...certainly they are priced competitively against other arrangers.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

Top
#263542 - 05/21/09 08:41 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Ian I HAVE SAID THAT IN PREVIOUS POSTS. It's not just Yamaha. IT'S ALL THE KEYBOARD MAKERS. They ALL milk the older generation.

Ian..., the biggest problem I see (especially on this forum) is arranger players who seem to think that the tools on a workstation are far less valuable to the player as you'd find on an arranger..., and that's not the case.

Workstations have arps and patterns. Those acoustic style arps on the workstations take just as much IF NOT more work to prodcude than the styles found on an arranger. Producing GOOD sounding patters on a workstation isn't easy either.

What I am saying Ian is when you look at the core..., the S-900 to the budget arranger player is EXACTLY what the Juno-G is to the budget workstation player. People so often on this forum degrade the tools on the workstation and their importance as "beneath" that of the tools on an arranger. No one is more important than the other. Both cater to the budget line and ARE on the same line for the budget player. One however..., offers just as much if not more and IS more pro orientated.., but does it FOR MUCH LESS! People talk about Chord recognition like it's the mother of all things. Synths have been chord based with their arps for YEARS...., and now are functioning more like an arranger (which is exactly what Yamaha was getting at with the new Motif XS)




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263543 - 05/21/09 08:58 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Ian.., look at it this way. As Diki pointed out.., how many here ignore the techno/dance section of their arrangers all together! Well..., what difference would it make if the companies added a modern styles section.., and some new kits to cater to those styles to attact the younger generation?

What would YOU or any other traditional arranger player have to do differently????? Shit..., just ignore that style section all together as you would the other style sections that don't interest you

Current arranger players COULD benefit from this guys. If they started catering to a younger crowd AND an older crowd..., that alone might reduce the major price gap.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263544 - 05/21/09 08:59 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Well, obviously the manufacturers feel an arranger should cost more, and you don't...good luck at changing their minds.

The topic of this thread was, "Is there a youthful arranger market?"

I'd say, no, there isn't.

Will there be?

I'd say, no, there will not...unless Roland, Korg or Yamaha make another DJX type instrument, the younger buyer will go for the workstaion every time.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

Top
#263545 - 05/21/09 09:02 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Ian..., YOU just said the other day that perhaps YOU should take REGION into consideration. Wasn't it not YOU who just said that your position was based on YOUR region?

There is a HUGE market for a modern arranger in the USA..., and I'm willing to bet it too would catch on in other parts of the world. Just because YOU don't think it would sell well in your neck of the woods doesn't speak for the globe.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263546 - 05/21/09 09:21 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Even if the younger players were to buy into the MOTL arrangers, then the price would have to be halved at least, while the feature content remained the same...I seriously doubt that will happen.

The PSR-S550 might be appealing, if they sold it with the styles younger players want...but they don't...the GW-8 has the same limitations.

Why doesn't Casio go for that market? They have the R&D clout, and they can keep their prices low?

If this is such a potentially lucrative market, why aren't there any takers?

I'm sure these manufacturers aren't that stupid to miss a big market.

What do they know that we don't?
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

Top
#263547 - 05/21/09 09:38 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Any one of them could do it Ian. Someone just has to take the step and DO IT. Yamaha took a shot and was hugely successful with it as you and I both know the DJX tickled a lot of toes

I think YAMAHA should be the one to step up and do it AGAIN. They had great success with it before.., but I'll say that when I was in retail.., I got whispers from reps that the DJX line in the US did cut into sales of the upper gear (more than expected really)

Let me ask you something Ian... I've played the S-900 numerous times (sounds freakin great too).., but there's one section I never really looked at with the S-900. I know you can do basic patch editing with the S-900.., but will the S-900 allow you to do basic editing with the drum kits? Can you go into a preset.., and adjust the level, tuning, and panning of the individual parts of a kit on the S-900..?
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263548 - 05/21/09 10:19 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
kits? Can you go into a preset.., and adjust the level, tuning, and panning of the individual parts of a kit on the S-900..?


No, you can't edit individual parts of a kit..you can only change kits, and edit the whole kit.

I believe you can edit individual drums on the Roland G70 and E-series....I don't know about Korg.

You do have two drum tracks on the Yamaha, so you could essentially have a snare or other drum, from one kit and use it with another (after erasing the first), and that track containing that particular sound, could be edited for panning, filter/brightness and effects...it is essentially a workaround, and not nearly as good as Roland's system.

I'm just surprised that if the market for an arranger for the younger player is as healthy as you describe, that no one has tapped into it...surely they must be aware?
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

Top
#263549 - 05/21/09 10:40 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Ian.., the market was tapped here in the US several years ago.., and in some places over in Europe. The company just decided to let the line die even though it was a big hit

Pitty you can't tweek the parts of the preset kit. That ALONE would open up HUGE door for creating some styles with a different flavor.

Yamaha clearly knows that even minute changes to their preset kits gave positive results! A former Yamaha PSR I owned is proof of that. Someone or one's over at Yamaha when creating styles for the PSR-550 decided that the preset Hip Hop kit just wasn't going to cut it. They did something a little sneaky.., but sneaky in a good way. The Hip Hop kit used on some styles WAS NOT available from the preset list. It was really more of a Hip Hop (variation kit--based on the preset). Someone over there did some minute tweeking to that kit (I think most of it was actually adjusting the tuning on some samples).., but it def sounded better than the preset kit.

The trick though was that this kit was not available from the panel voices. If you wanted to use that "variation kit" you had to edit a style that used the kit. Doing that gave you access to this particular kit.

Yamaha could essentially just do some tweeks of the package they're already using. If Yamaha added basic drum editing to the next model..., that'll open up a lot of wiggle room for sure. If the Korgs and Rolands do this..., then those arrangers also have HUGE possibilities. All it takes is for someone on whichever team to set a group down and say..., "for the next few weeks.., your job is to tweek these preset kits.., and then USE those variations to create a group of MODERN sounding drum/bass grooves." They could keep it simple..., and offer them as "genre specific packs".

Ian.., you may not realize this.., but there are many people out there who are into modern music who for the exact same reason arranger players buy their arrangers (being the STYLES) who themselves are looking for the same thing! Not everyone can record drum parts or even create a full backing track. That's why arrangers are so popular..., it really makes life easy for those who can't creat drum tracks and full backing tracks. There are a lot of younger players (even older players) who are on the same level on the modern arranger side and have trouble playing keyboard drums for example. No amount of quantizing can help them.., and you'll find many that are willing to admit it too An arranger keyboard that offered them a section of modern sounding drum/bass grooves would make a large untapped market very happy.

The closes thing to that today is the MM6.., but it's REALLY limited in so many areas.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
#263550 - 05/21/09 11:02 AM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Ian.., what are you opinions on this.., and I'm asking since you work for Yamaha.

What about Yamaha (or any of the top three) opening the door and "contracting out" for content..... Hell they really could contract within by simply breaking down the wall that separates the developers on the arranger team and workstation team

Let me give you a good example. Let's look at Zoom for a moment. Zoom contracted with the Beat Kangz label. Zoom provided the hardware and B-Kangz provided the content and skill. What happened..., well the result of that partnership was the Zoom SB-246.., also known as the StreetBoxx. Zoom literally recycled a current model of theirs (RT-223).., and that unit turned out to be one of the hottest selling hardware drum machine over the last few years.., and even broke sales records for Zoom. There were parts of the world that couldn't even get the thing as it was in such high demand. I got one myself and can't put it down. The result of this was a $179 hip hop drum machine that (even today) in terms of "drum tracks" can still hang with every hardware unit out there (in regards to presets).

Why can't anyone of the big three contract out. They provide the hardware and a third party provides the content. Alesis had to use a 3rd party sound developer to literally save the Fusion synth line.

I know Yamaha, Korg, and Roland.., considering the money they have could contract out. What Zoom paid the Beat Kangz group would have been pocket change to the big three

Zooms contract with them turned out to be so successful that B-Kangz has their own unit coming out now (however.., it's rumored that Zoom still has a hand in the hardware development).., but if this thing delivers it'll blow the roof off the market (because of what it's supposed to do and the price). It's called the Beat Thang.., and if you see the YouTube vids..., you'll need to really look past the ghetto fab attitudes of the BKz crew.., and look at the unit itself though

Any one of the big three could tap that market..., and use the popularity of a beat making label to put out some killer content in partnership.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

Top
Page 4 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

Moderator:  Admin 



Help keep Synth Zone Online