http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g19W9dpV8s



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C'mon, Frank... I am SURE you know how to play a dim/aug/sus...

These basic chord examples don't answer any questions about the transition between audio guitar and MIDI guitar. Over ten minutes of II-V and II-I progressions and you can't slip a sus or dim in there even ONCE?

BTW, am I the only one noticing some small timing glitches at Intro/Variation boundaries, every now and again?

ouch, just trying to give some simple samples, I'll how would you like it?

any particular style you want it done with?



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All with the audio guitar, Frank. In the middle of one of those IIm or V7 chords, raise it to a sus for a bar or two, or maybe try a I, Iaug, IV, Vsus, V7 progression.

These will at least demonstrate how well the MIDI and audio integrate. Any style (all the styles!) will be fine, as long as it has an audio guitar track....

Do YOU hear those glitches at In/Var and fill/Var boundaries occasionally, too?

I'd also be interested in hearing how well the Audya tracks a faster chord input (especially one perhaps not PERFECT in timing input). Maybe just a simple C, Dm, Em, F at a quarter note or eighth note speed (think 'Lean on Me' by Bill Withers) to see what happens to the audio chords when the trigger chord is fractionally late (as we ALL do from time to time!).

Thanks, Frank...

The Youtube demos of new arrangers are great to have since some of us reside in places where such stores are scant and live demos are difficult to experience. However, I agree with others that the available demos should include various levels of player skills. For one, I wish the manufactureres would offer more examples of pro-type players showing what these boards can really do. So much of what I hear is groove type styles where one or two chords are the norm. How about some standard tunes with slick jazz or big band stylings, such as Frank Mantooth arrangments or Dick Hyman? I'd like to hear chromatic bass lines, 4 chords per measure, and other idicators of a truly professional band---at least as much as a single arranger can provide. These are not complaints, just wishes. I love the S900. Can't wait for the next upgrade.

Hey guys and gals,

Frank asked if I would post some of the mp3 versions of what he's recording on the Audya.

Here is the first one...Pop Styles.

Click Here...

-mike

Thanks, Mike.

OK, Mike, I downloaded and listened to the MP3, and looked up it's properties.

Unfortunately, you decided to encode this (probably to save space and loading time) at under 96kbps, a VERY compromised bitrate for a quality playback. Did Frank send it to you as this?

Personally, for an MP3 to have a close to .wav fidelity, it needs to be at least 196kbps encoding, and preferably 256kbps+. Even the crappy mp3's you get on the internet tend to be at least 128kbps.

I know this sounds kind of picky, but the whole POINT of an audio only demo is to have fidelity much greater than what the camcorder is already achieving, isn't it?

I am afraid, with Ketron's scant dealership network, that is virtually EVERYBODY, not just 'some of us'...

You're welcome!

Plus, Frank just sent me the mp3 for Advanced Chords so keep checking the link above from time to time. I'll post 'em as I get 'em.


-mike

Nope, not me. I didn't touch the files. In fact, I promised Frank (for what it's worth) that I wouldn't mess with the integrity of the samples.

Talk to the source....nicely.


-mike

That's strange, I recorded it in VBR mp3, to try to get the best quality and space

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OK.... Here's me being nice

Pretty please, Frank, with nuts on it...

Could you record these audio examples at 196kbps+, PLEASE....

One of those nice new H4n's would be the perfect tool. Hey, If you use the Auto Detect Audio feature, it would even automatically split the file up into individual style examples, so that you don't end up with just ONE big file, too big to send by email (although Yousendit would have no problem)...

We DO appreciate you doing all this, it's great to finally have someone responsive to our requests for unbiased opinion and audio and video examples. The better the audio examples are, the more they will wow your customers, the more likely they will buy one...

Nice enough?

Sorry, Frank... missed your last post before I replied. That must be my Quicktime incorrectly reporting the bitrate, then. Is the VBR set to 'Best'? Are you recording as .wav and converting afterwards, or using the Zoom?

Personally, I don't trust hardware VBR encoding. They can vary quite a bit in quality, plus some older MP3 players don't like VBR (not that there are too many left with that problem). So, you are recording off the store's mixer into a Zoom? Cool.

Sorry to have been such a worrywort....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fo8B5poqA

Sinced you asked so nicely no problem, But I did record it in VBR, would you prefer WAV or a higher MP3?

Also thanks everybody for the private emails thanking me, and please I have thick skin, I'm italian, so you can be easy on Diki, I understand where he is coming from, especially when he gives me that $5000 plus tip for the next Audya



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No worries, Frank. Where it is is fine, if YOU think it's a pretty good representation of the 'in person' sound of the Audya...

And, if this thing wows me enough, don't worry... you'll be getting a call.

Sadly, I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed so far, but there are still plenty of styles to go. Is the store Audya updated to the latest current OS? I noticed in the read me's that they had done some work to the timing of some of the transitions between sections. If that is the up to date OS, methinks perhaps they have a little more work to do...

Thanks for this Frank.

The styles sound absolutely amazing

unfortunately your demos makes the waiting even harder, but if everything goes well I should hopefully get my Audya next week.

The screen display looks different, is that OS 2.0 or has it still not been released?

Thanks.

Hey Frank,

Thanks for making that advanced chord changes video...really interesting stuff there.

Can you set the screen on the Audya to show which midi guitar gets chosen when filling in for the audio loops? It sounds like your basic Clean Guitar (GEM talk...that's all I own). I'm just wondering if you can change THAT guitar to possibly something else that would better match the audio loop guitar. Maybe something not as bright.


-mike

why is it that in all styles, the metronome seems to be incorrect?

shouldn't the downbeat be the first light to light up (RED)

on those videos, the downbeat is represented by the second LED (which is green)

Another quick question, Frank... are the levels of the Parts at Ketron's default levels? I have to confess, as much as I like drums, some of the ACC Parts are a little buried. I notice you are simply calling up styles, not changing Registrations (or whatever Ketron call them) or Part levels. Do Ketron have these styles already Part tweaked, and would it be possible to hear how THEY voice them?

That bossa-salsa styles is really nice, Great combo of two styles. I'm impressed.

Frank,
How about a latin section youtube video?

Thanks, Mario

It is a beta update OS, not completely finished, I guess they wanted me to try it out. it's still in a raw form so will see.



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The way it seems to me is that Ketron has already pre-determined which midi based guitar sound will come in to help the "audio" loops play the more complicated chords. I have muted all parts except the live audio part and I can hear the part switch to a midi sound but it does not show which guitar or setting for that.



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I gotta check that out, maybe I synced the audio wrong? I just got a new iMac coming from the PC world so I'm learning as I do



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I'll do some samples with volumes down and showed individual parts



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It's on the list to do, I just hope my demoing is helping instead of hurting.

I love the board and I'm going to take it out on a gig tomorrow, we'll see how that goes



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Frank, the love the latin styles and look forward to you posting more. Are you taking the HN4 to record the gig?

no, I don't want any records of how bad I do my first time out.

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I thought I would at least explain the how to adjust styles on Audya, it is the same as all other Ketron products in the past.

No registrations needed to change styles. When Frank has time, he'll call up the style, press arranger view, the parts will come up on the screen. From there he can manipulate volumne levels and he could page over to effects , make adjustments , press save enter and be done.

I like what I hear. But than again, I am a former Ketron demo dude

Well, that's kind of how they all work, isn't it, Dan?

What I'm talking about is, maybe before doing your own tweaks, it might help to hear how Ketron voiced the styles, as to Part balances, reverb amounts, etc., etc.. And to do that, you probably need to call up Ketron's own Registrations, don't you?

My next demo will be with the registrations that come wit the Audya, I will be using it on a gig tomorrow.

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OK, finally managed to get the 'advanced' chord demo (although I wouldn't call these advanced chords in the slightest ) to load... for some reason earlier today it wouldn't load.

First things first... that's a pretty low level, mix-wise, for the guitar part to sit at, IMO (I pay all that money for this feature, I would want it as loud as a real guitarist would be playing!). So, I think that the timbral changes are less apparent than they would be at a stronger level. But even as buried as that was, there is a VERY poor balance between the 'advanced' chords and the audio ones, to the point at times when it felt like the MIDI guitars were hardly there.

Also, there's a considerable difference in EQ between the audio track and the MIDI one. If there's a per-Part EQ, is it possible to 'tweak' the MIDI Part to be a better blend? More mids, for instance?

I guess if you never play those 'advanced' chords, you are set. Me, I can't think of a tune that doesn't have at least ONE of those, ahem, 'advanced' ( ) chords in it... For much of American music, at least, the guitar part is the driving force, the core rhythm of the style. To have such a disparity between different chords (especially as how Yamaha and Korg do it, to my ears, nearly equally well, and without ANY of the dropouts) kind of puts a damper on this feature. And, no offense, but this ONE feature is kind of the entire reason d'etre of the Audya.

It shows great promise, but I must confess, I think I can wait until it realizes that promise fully... In the meantime, both Korg and Yamaha are showing that you don't need audio loops to get very realistic style guitar parts, and there is room for advances in their approach that could take that approach even higher.

It'll be interesting to see what method eventually dominates. I can't help but root for the MIDI method, as much as I like to tweak my styles... Presets are great, but one bad match for a song, and with audio, you are screwed. With MIDI, at least there is the POTENTIAL (whether you take it or not is up to you) to fix the track...

sorry for mis-labeling the "advanced" chords.

I agree with you Diki on the volume differences between the midi guitar and the audio guitar, can't quite understand how they let that go, with such a volume difference.

From what I was told, Ketron has dedicated themselves to the Audya and refinement and upgrades. It is ready to be used on a gig, of course it can be better, and just like the G70, and PA series, updates can and will make it a better board.

I'll try to play something above a third grade level with some registrations, then I'll play some styles and mute parts, but overall everyone has a different opinion on mixes. Some like hot drums, some like the bass hot.


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If you pull a ketron keyboard out of the box and call up a style, you can view volumne levels, voice used etc.. So if you define a registration as how the manufacturer sent the keyboard from the factory, than we have a different way of defining registraion.

Registrations to me, means something that you created and saved to a registration. Not something the manufacturer has done.
Kind of a snap shot of your own personal setting. Each varitation would be saved to a different registration...

However, with Ketron you do not need to save style tweaks in a registration. You can over write factory settings or copy the style to a folder on the harddrive and than playback -tweak & save with no resgitrations being used.

Perhaps this clears things up



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 05-09-2009).]

Hopefully Ketron will "dedicate" themselves to making the audio loops trigger on each and every chord structure not just major and minor chords. This is really a 'noticeable' flaw in my opinion (as opposed to a flaw that you don't necessarily notice outright). What a let down in my honest objective opinion. I just don't see how a crowd could get enthused or stay enthused by your performance when they hear a "discernable" sound difference each and every time you play diminished, sustained, or augmented chords in the songs you play. I realize that not every song will have those kind of chords in them but it's sad when you are faced with the prospect of having to "restructure" and/or "rearrange" your song list(s) or avoid certain songs altogether all because the Audya is limited in such a "basic" function i.e. Style playing.

I am really looking forward to Audya "2", when Ketron will hopefully get their act together and allow the next Audya to have audio loop functionality no matter WHAT chord you happen to play. So in a decade or so we can finally have an Audya that won't be limited in such an "obvious" and "audible" way eh?

Unless Ketron is somehow able to get that audio style chord functionality implemented into Audya "1"?? If that is indeed possible and Ketron comes through and incorporates that functionality with an OS update I will seriously consider the Audya "1" again. If not, I'll wait the 10 or so years until they DO fix it with Audya "2".

With the way things are going though, Audya "2" will probably cost $10,000.00 by then. Which will make me "twice" as mad as I am right NOW about Audya's ridiculous $5,000.00 price tag.

All the best,
Mike

This reminds me of when I bought one of the first G70s, I was so excited, finally Roland has come to beat up all the other guys with a keyboard that had it all.

Well mine was with the first OS, and I was greatly disappointed, I had spent almost $4000 with taxes from a piano shop who did not have it but was able to sell them.

I hated it, but with time Roland put out some updates, and that board came alive. I would probably still have one but a offer I could not refuse came in and I had to let it go.

I guess you can also think of it as a car. How many cars are released and then a recall or update is needed so it doesn't blow-up or brake fail or something, that seems to be ok when you spend $35,000 on a car?

I know almost 3 years for a keyboard to come out you would think everything would be finished, I can't argue that point, but us Italians work slow, but so far we do pretty good.

The G70 was made in Italy
The PA2xpro and PA800 are made in Italy

So in time.

I'm sticking with it, I also hope Roland will come out with their successor to the G70, and then we can have a party.

Funny I have people come in and play all 3 and I will get a different favorite every time, no clear winners, it's completely personal taste. (and available money)

Frank

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I just wonder if Roland will put its factory and offices in the Ancona/Ossimo area...?

Just like the G70, Frank, I have a feeling that some issues CAN be fixed by software, and some issues cannot.

What has frustrated me with Roland is that some of the easily fixed software issues never got fixed, while at the same time, several new features got added that have little impact on how good an arranger it is (Guitar Mode is a joke compared to Korg - it's not usable in style Mode) nd have monopolized their R&D efforts.

Personally, I have had a far less drastic response to the G70 OS upgrades. Sure, they are very welcome, but because I like to tweak all my styles anyway, waiting until OS3's per Part EQ and the revoicing of the styles wasn't really necessary for me. And all of the Makeup Tools and style editing tools were there from Day1 (rather than some indeterminate time in the future with the Audya), I was able to get a very quick grasp on whether this thing was going to work for me or not.

Hi Frank,
wouldn't that make it rather awkward for
"Unplugged" type guitar styles like we have on the KorgPA2X/PA800.
Basically Drums, Bass & Guitar.
The Unplugged styles are brilliant on the Korg. I would have thought Ketron would want to showcase the guitar audio loops with this type of style.
In a heavily orchestrated style, would it really show up whether you were using midi guitars or audio loop guitars anyway?

Unfortunately I haven't been able to veiw your demo's, my stupid wireless internet is too slow. I don't think I'm even acheiving dial up speed at times.

best wishes
Rikki
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by frankieve:
[B]

I agree with you Diki on the volume differences between the midi guitar and the audio guitar, can't quite understand how they let that go, with such a volume difference.

Apparently, Ketron fans don't need to listen to demos, discuss potential problems, or talk about issues readily apparent from demos and other owners' posts...

They are going to buy one or two of these things regardless of where the Audya is now. So, apparently, Ketron don't even NEED to fix this stuff before release, or after it, to be honest. Once they have your money, what's the point?!

My take on the guitar loop thing is that, after three YEARS working on the problem, if that's as good as it sounds now, that's probably as good as it is going to get. Three years? Well, they announced it two years ago. Surely they must have been working on it for at least a year BEFORE they announced it? Or maybe they just made some features up, announced it, and after the initial response, sat around going 'Damn! Now I guess we have to make good on our hype!'

Sadly, they failed.

Perhaps they have learned to NOT announce features until they have proven to themselves that it CAN be done... Perhaps not. I guess the NEXT Ketron announcement will show this or not.

In the meantime, those who will buy Ketron simply for the logo, whether the advertised features work or not, will probably keep them in business...