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#248922 - 11/22/08 01:47 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
You still fail to get the point, Ian...

The Roland's DON'T NEED third party support.


I do get the point, Diki...but tell me this...why are Roland users always demanding new styles?

Very few players are going to start fooling with styles on a gig no matter how easy the interface...that's reality...and very few of them even know how in the first place.

Not much good being elegant if no one has the desire to use it...and judging by the clamoring for third party styles for ALL arrangers, it doesn't seem like anyone really wants to.

Again, you are probably an exception.

Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-22-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#248923 - 11/22/08 03:16 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9032
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Revoicing Pre-recorded SMF Song Files on a TYROS
Individual Song Track Parameters such as Voice, Volume, Pan, Tempo, etc. can be changed by using the 'MIXING CONSOLE' function.

1) Load a Song

2) Press the [MIXING CONSOLE] button repeatedly to select Song Channels 1 - 8 or Channels 9 – 16.

3) Press the [C] button to select the 'VOICE' section in the screen.

4) Press the [^] toggle button under the display for a desired Channel and select a new Voice.

5) Press [EXIT] to return to the Mixing Console page.

6) Repeat steps 4 and 5 until all tracks are revoiced as desired.

7) Press the [DIGITAL RECORDING] button.

8) Press the [A] button to select 'SONG CREATOR'.

9) Use the [BACK] and [NEXT] buttons to display the 'CHANNEL' page in the screen.

10) Use the [A] and buttons to select 'SET UP' in the screen.

NOTE: Make sure the song is rewound to the top of the track

11) Press the [D] button “EXECUTE”


Saving the Edited Song:
1) Press the [I] button to select 'SAVE'.

2) Use the [BACK] and [NEXT] buttons to select the destination.

3) Press the '6' [v] toggle button to select 'SAVE'.

4) If necessary, rename the Song using the toggle buttons under the screen.

5) Press the '8' [^] toggle button to select 'OK' and save the Song.


quote:

That was Steve's directions...Ian you have to be kidding..saying Yamaha is not harder to work with...

And yes , I do edit live..why not..Roland makes it easy and practical....

I think you and most folks really do not understand these tools and their benefits..

Still ..to each his own..try them all and make an informed decision...I am glad I know the difference..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#248924 - 11/22/08 03:32 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Ian you have to be kidding..saying Yamaha is not harder to work with...


I think you and most folks really do not understand these tools and their benefits..



I didn't say it wasn't harder...I said it wasn't THAT much harder...like everything, you get used to it, and it becomes second nature.

But you're right in saying that most folks don't understand these tools and benefits, much like the chord sequencer that Roland dropped....and if we are being real about this, VERY FEW users do any style creation, whether it be on Roland or Yamaha... very few....most can't be bothered or they just find any process too tedious.

So it's not really whether the style creator is easy to use or "elegant"...most don't even try, and want the styles already done for them.

I read the Roland sites, and the Korg sites...people are hungry for pre-made styles.

You and Diki don't represent the average user...you guys are pros....MOST arranger buyers are amateurs....they want everything pre-made, and rarely if ever venture into the inner workings of their keyboards.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#248925 - 11/22/08 09:03 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Well, I think I hear that the vast selection of third party styles for Yamaha's is also one of it's strongest points, so THAT need seems pretty universal...

I guess the point, at least for us pros, is that a less than perfect style is just not acceptable. We get payed to sound good all night long, not just for tunes that the style is good for... so having tools available to easily correct some of the, let's just be kind and say 'not QUITE so good' styles out there are pretty much essential.

However, I'm sorry, but there are some pretty sophisticated capabilities on Yamaha's, WAY beyond what your 'average home users' are ever going to want or need. It doesn't stop you from extolling them. And I'm pretty sure that, were Yamaha to actually have editing tools in them as good as Roland's, you wouldn't be dismissing them so lightly, and would probably be pointing them out to everyone that would listen (whether they used them or not!) as something good.

Sadly, the world where ONLY Yamaha's good points are important, and every other arrangers' good points are NOT only exists in your mind. Where I come from, ALL good points are good points, and when I see something great on a different arranger, my first impulse is not to denigrate and trivialize it... it is to ask why I can't have it on MY arranger, too.

I am utterly convinced that, were Yamaha to have as easy and non-technical a way to quickly edit anything, you would be the FIRST guy to brag about it all the time...

But you don't... so you dismiss it. Kind of sad, really

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#248926 - 11/22/08 10:10 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by George Kaye:
I fully understand that Roland users like the way Roland allows the user to make changes to style and song tracks including individual changing of drum sound parts on their keyboards, but I don't find the Yamaha way any more difficult. With Roland you press a button, move around to the parts, make your changes and press save. On Yamaha, you move around on the mixer panel, make all your changes and select the digital record style function, hit the 2nd tab button and push save and now you have a custom style or song. Both do the job really well.
I think it's which you get used to. I also find that most of my customers would not get into individual drum map changes but rather select a different kit or just use the one associated with the style.



That's exactly the way we do it and there are so many styles to choose from you rarely have to tweak a style itself other than maybe switch out a voice or edit some efx. I fond myself creating new voices to use within styles and thats a pretty simple process.

But again the style library is huge so you will always find what you need. The voices are 2008 and the support is second to none by a long margin.

We sell Korg, Yamaha and Roland came in this week to offer their wares, but being primarily involved with Arrangers (which are less likely to become Internet purchases after we spend hours demoing them as was our experience with the higher end Motif and pure Pro workstation keyboards), we did not feel Roland had anything in the Arrangers world that would compete side by side in a quick demo situation. The real benefits of the Roland are deeper than most people who play these things want to go.

Arranger customers generally want to press as few buttons as possible and go. Rarely do I ever get a call on how to change reverb tails, or switch out voices even, I usually tell them to hook up the LAN and they will find everything they need either direct to the board or via their PC. Most people don't even revoice SMFs and are apparently content wth the standard XG voice set. The are amazed when they come back in and I take an SMF and revoice it using Megas, Sweets,Arts and cool voices...and even this can be done automatically and they still don't do it!!

Complicated to them would be putting a Leslie on a Jon Lord distorted organ where you would have to create the distorted organ voice choosing among various distortion EFX and setting distortion levels then save it as a new voice and apply the Leslie DSP to the new voice.

I would not discount the Korg for live play either,Although I found the style support abysmal in comarison, it makes a great traditional workstation and offers many features a live player would use. INstand bass fingering function via a button allowing the bass to follow the lowest note or the root with a push of a button, Yamaha has a few but you have to get into a menu to set them, I just use the AI bass which seems to work out for most chord changes. Sometimes it plays the root, sometimes not.

Cost and keys can be a huge consideration as well Tyros is pretty expensive and is 61 keys. You can get a G70 for far less with 76.

Play them. You will know immediately which one will sing to you. It's like buying a guitar. Initial impressions are usually the winner. This from a guy who bought the Korg PA2x initially "on paper", sold it and ended up with the T3.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#248927 - 11/22/08 10:20 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by George Kaye:
"Personally, buying the same arranger as everyone else puts up a red flag for me. I don't WANT to sound like everyone else"
Diki,
This sounds like the buyer that comes into my store and sees a wall of Fender Stratocaster guitars and says "I don't want one of those Strats, everyone plays those" and I say to them "that's because players love the sound, feel, etc. and want what the Strat offers. If this wasn't the case, so many musicians would choose other brands and models".
I also want to respond to my original post in stating that what Roland E80's do are quite good, as is the Tyros3, but the Yamaha has some extra things, as does the Roland (make up tools, etc.) that might be appreciated by the end user.
I also want to mention that the Yamaha is made in Japan and the Roland is made in Italy and as for me, I would prefer the model made in Japan for their reputation for top manufacturing in almost every kind of item they make. Most Yamaha products are now made in either China or Indonesia. Don't get me in trouble here ..........Italian manufacturing is good, but I think we all know here the reputation of things made in Japan.




That's funny I get the same thing. They don;t realize the Fender is probably the most VERSATILE guitar made. Are you happy with three tones or five? The problem with Roland is they are all about the Fantom. Everything else for them is an "also ran" the red headed stepchild.

DIKI You must have Roland arranger players on every corner down there since you have this insatiable need to sound different....

There aren't enough of them around for people the even consider they sound the same as the next guy. There is no "next guy."


Yamaha treats ALL their keyboards the same with support and sales tools and divisions. The support is amazing. If I have a question in the store I can call Yamaha and get someone immediately being a dealer in the middle of a demo that's not only helpful but the customer witnesses that support level as well..



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-22-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#248928 - 11/22/08 10:22 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Revoicing Pre-recorded SMF Song Files on a TYROS
Individual Song Track Parameters such as Voice, Volume, Pan, Tempo, etc. can be changed by using the 'MIXING CONSOLE' function.

1) Load a Song

2) Press the [MIXING CONSOLE] button repeatedly to select Song Channels 1 - 8 or Channels 9 – 16.

3) Press the [C] button to select the 'VOICE' section in the screen.

4) Press the [^] toggle button under the display for a desired Channel and select a new Voice.

5) Press [EXIT] to return to the Mixing Console page.

6) Repeat steps 4 and 5 until all tracks are revoiced as desired.

7) Press the [DIGITAL RECORDING] button.

8) Press the [A] button to select 'SONG CREATOR'.

9) Use the [BACK] and [NEXT] buttons to display the 'CHANNEL' page in the screen.

10) Use the [A] and buttons to select 'SET UP' in the screen.

NOTE: Make sure the song is rewound to the top of the track

11) Press the [D] button “EXECUTE”


Saving the Edited Song:
1) Press the [I] button to select 'SAVE'.

2) Use the [BACK] and [NEXT] buttons to select the destination.

3) Press the '6' [v] toggle button to select 'SAVE'.

4) If necessary, rename the Song using the toggle buttons under the screen.

5) Press the '8' [^] toggle button to select 'OK' and save the Song.


quote:

That was Steve's directions...Ian you have to be kidding..saying Yamaha is not harder to work with...

And yes , I do edit live..why not..Roland makes it easy and practical....

I think you and most folks really do not understand these tools and their benefits..

Still ..to each his own..try them all and make an informed decision...I am glad I know the difference..


Or you can simply use "Auto revoice" and then save the song using song creator.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

Top
#248929 - 11/22/08 11:09 PM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Actually, yes, most of the arranger players I know down here are Roland users...

Not that I know that many... this is still a hotbed of bands, rather than OMB's, on the whole. That's one of the reasons I love my G70. It's a pretty unapologetic full band keyboard, AS WELL as a decent arranger.

Personally, I prefer arrangers, with their immediacy of editing and quick tone selection over WS's for live gigging. If you have plenty of time to set everything up in advance, a WS might sound a bit better (but not for the music I tend to play), but go out and play a pickup gig, where you need splits and layers at the drop of a hat (I'm not really one of those 'one sound at a time' type players ), and an arranger is FAR easier to setup on the fly...

So far, just about every band I've played in has gone 'Holy cr@p! That things sounds AMAZING! What in the hell is it?'. This, in a town with plenty of Tritons, Fantoms, Motif's, etc.. I definitely have never ONCE got a negative comment about it being an arranger! In the studio, it's getting plenty of track time even against VSTi's and the K2500, Tritons, etc..

So, all in all, I don't much care for what the 'average' arranger user thinks of it. I'm not one of those...

And, were I to use even the vaunted T3, you BET I would be still trying to sound 'different' But having a harder time to do it..!

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#248930 - 11/23/08 02:54 AM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
[B]There are a lot more pros using Tyros than Roland E-80...ever wonder why? In fact, you could count on one hand the number of E-80 giggers on this forum....many more Tyros users.


Not here (in Europe). Yamaha lags a distant third behind Roland and Ketron for professional use here.

The last time I auditioned a Tyros - the Tyros 2, earlier this year - I rejected it in favour of an E-80 for several reasons, but one of the main ones was that the Yamaha appeared to be made from what could charitably be described as sub-Toys R Us cheap Chinese plastics. Sat next to an E-80 it's quite obvious which one has been designed with the professional gigging musician in mind.

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#248931 - 11/23/08 03:08 AM Re: Tyros 3 x Roland e-80, which one is better for OMB?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10593
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

So, all in all, I don't much care for what the 'average' arranger user thinks of it. I'm not one of those...



Thanks Diki, you have understood my point exactly...you aren't the "average" arranger user.

Roland's third party support is dismal, and reflected in their sales....all one has to do is read the forums, including this one.

Sad, really, because they might have done much better by pitching to the home market instead of the pros who seem to be ashamed to be caught on stage or camera with an arranger.

Roland's marketing has also really bonked things up for sure....that's why they are languishing on the shelves and in warehouses(according to Fran).


I would be very surprised to see Roland introduce a replacement for the G70...and if they do, it will probably be quite different than the present model, and either made more specifically for the pro, or geared more clearly to the home buyer.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-23-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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