Man I would LOVE to have one of these things! Too bad it costs as much as my wife's 08 Chevy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpxtlCLwWvA&feature=channel

Also have a look at Roland, Orla, Wersi & Bohm organs, and you will be amazed at what�s out there.

Word of warning: avoid the latest Roland Atelier Organs if you have a Roland Arranger, as otherwise you will be depressed when you hear how the new Atelier sound engine really puts the Arranger sound engine to shame.

Regards

Bill

Would this be the same instrument. And how about that 7 yr. old. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&vid=47dc9e86-a821-4e4b-a192-7ed91b814d11&playlist=videoByUuids:uuids:cf5b6e8f-43f1-4d38-a51d-aa0cc10c0ed5%2C98a1aa1f-afd3-49ff-b680-6ac395ad818c%2C5 2a85d7d-1201-47b8-8f11-2e2f7df5b4f6&from=MSNHP&tab=m137>1=42003

I heard those demos, Bill... I don't hear what you are hearing, that's for sure

Whatever Roland tried to get SA type sounds sounds terrible, and all the rest sounds pretty much like my G70...

But I guess you haver to sit in front of one to tell ANYTHING from a web demo, don't you?

Word of wake-up - the Ateliers cost ten times as much.

And don't even sound twice as good...

Nice furniture, though!

You need something portable - http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=7u4nHH1cloc&feature=channel

And I'm SURE it's very affordable

Maybe we could all get jobs in our local stadiums and ice rinks.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 11-20-2008).]

I heard Ralf Shink play both at the keyboard festival, (As well as others) and I can assure you that the Atelier left all the Roland arrangers in the dust, and sound wise easily beat Tyros 3.
In fact, (For me) if Roland bring out a new arranger using the Atelier sound engine, then quite frankly the rest of the mainstream boys might as well go home.
The sound really is that good.

Regards

Bill

Atelier even has something they call a PORTABLE model. http://www.rolandus.com/PRODUCTS/productlist.aspx?ParentId=79

Yep... a 'scant' 224 lbs.!

You know the main difference between the G70 and the AT...

Roland use demoers that don't SUCK...

Mind you, at, how much are they? $8-10k? they can afford better than the schlubs they make do the arranger demos.

Bear in mind, guys, this is a Wersi fan posting this 'info'... Maybe it DOES sound good to someone that likes those overpriced, over-hyped, under-achieving behemoths..

I can EASILY equal any of the AT demos except the Rogers organ pipes stuff, and I can die happy knowing I'll never need THAT type of sound (they can play an AT at my funeral, but not before!)...

Some of you may know Alex Green from the PSR forum. Alex went from a Tyros2 last year to a Roland e80. After he heard and played Roland Atelier Organ he bought one, then upgraded. He tells me once he played the Roland Atelier there was no going back to an arranger. Alex retired from gigging some years ago and only plays at home.

Atelier pretty much has the high end home organ market to itself now, and deservedly so. There's nothing even remotely comparable.

Keep the instrument, I'll take Yuki Wada.....even with her "legislation burrons"

Eddie.., that's funny. I feel bad for the Japanese when it comes to some english words (or even individual letters). The Japanese do not have the R sound in any of the 3 alphabets they use. The R sound in english makes an L sound in the Japanese language. In the US we add the R sound to Japanese words. Take Tereyaki for example. In the Japanese language that's actually pronounced Teleyaki

So words like registrations can sometimes come out as legislations Yuki can play her little tail off though. In some of her vids it's obvious that she's classically trained.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-21-2008).]

To me languages have always been a source of fascination.
It is a new revelation to me that "the japanese have three alphabets"... I intend to study this.Thanks.

What is nevertheless strange, is that she manages to pronounce "buttons" as if she were american when she says "burrons" )

cheers
Eddie

I have to agree with abacus that the new Roland Ateliers sound samples were very noticeably in a better sound class to anything Roland have previously done.

You'll have some fun with Japanese. This was my main language of study in college. All I can say is that IMO it's by no means an easy language to learn. Learning to speak it is one thing.., but learning to read and write it.., man oh man will it have you scratching your head at times. Plus learning the customs as well is interesting. Such as the difference in how you greet your friends, and how you greet an elder. The Japanese culture is strict on "respect" (like many of the Asian cultures)....

If you speak english.., learning other languages like Spanish, Italian, French, and so on aren't so bad because at least you're still using the same alphabet (with some minor variations).., but when you get into the Asian languages it's a WHOLE'NOTHER WORLD!

Yes..., in Japanese you'll learn 3 alphabets. Those are the Katakana, Hiragana, and the Kanji. The first one (Katakana) is a very simplistic form of Japanese text.., and one of the things this alphabet is used for is to write words that are not native to the Japanese language. So right there you can get an idea.... With enlgish we at least can use the same alphabet (even for non-native words), but the Japanese have a whole separate alphabet reserved for that!

Learning to write and read these alphabets is a challenge

How's this for irony..., my Japanese instructors name was Yuki.. There's also another variation of that name which is Yumi Both of these are very common female names in Japan.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-21-2008).]

I have always been amazed by the people I have met in business who can speak and understand japanese.
I, myself, have varying speech and writing skills in french,german,spanish,italian,and russian with a few hours only of chinese...therefore I have great admiration for those who have studied the oriental languages.
Nevertheless, I have now the intention to obtain some japanese.
Thanks again
Eddie

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

PSR9000

You're welcome or "Do itashi mashite" I think I spelled that right (been a while)... You'll sometimes see the letter U on the first part making it Dou itashi mashite. (I've seen it written both ways)

In english you'd pronounce it Doh-ee taa shee-maa shee tay. Man.., it's been a while since I've written this stuff

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-21-2008).]

Quote originally posted by Diki "Roland use demoers that don't SUCK...

Mind you, at, how much are they? $8-10k? they can afford better than the schlubs they make do the arranger demos."

More like 28,000 and up for a full console.

This is the General Arranger Forum so from that viewpoint Diki is absolutely correct.

However for a hobbyist or someone that loves organ and there are still quite a few,
The modern organ is way ahead of the arrangers in term of playability and
convenience. Not many people are going to be able to use it to make a lliving however. Especially in the US

The original synth was not the Moog - but the Pipe organ LOL

I guess I'll go duck my head now!

Jerry

PS

I was referring to the Atelier Organ vs the G70.




[This message has been edited by Mainer (edited 11-21-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Mainer (edited 11-21-2008).]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OwRIYILOP0


Yea right!

Right on Donny.., that guy should have taken the mic and slapped this clown in the head with it. This product demo would make a great "Should have had a V8" commercial Better yet.., I can almost picture little Stewie from Family Guy showing up at the very end..., stand on top of a pile of phonebooks..., and then just smack the guy in the face and leave.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-21-2008).]

Jerry dont lower yourself I'm sure your better then that .....this was one of the worst demo's I've seen in a long time.

Trust me on that one. LOL

Roland US's choice of demonstrators compared to Yamaha reflects EXACTLY Roland US's commitment to the arranger market...

ZERO... NADA... ZIP... ZILTCH...

We are completely on our own, boys (and girls!). I am completely convinced that, were they allowed to, RolandUS wouldn't even OFFER arrangers. You would have to import them from Europe. It is time this division's personnel were purged, lock stock and barrel, and replaced with people that have at least a BIT of respect for the product they are trying to get us to give them our hard earned money for...

Yamaha do not sell Electones in Europe and in the USA, so why bother producing an english speaking demo?????

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 11-22-2008).]

As far as I know, they are sold in Australia, where there is still a thriving market for organs of this type.

Ian

A lot of players have imported them to Europe direct from Japan.
There is also now a German dealer that will import and deliver them for you.

Regards

Bill

Apparently so is spelling (enlgish) .

BTW, it's not nice to make fun of Japanese pronunciations, you plicks.

chas

http://www.bauer-music.de/heimorgeln/electone-stagea/electone-stagea-els-01c.html

Kind regards,
Tommy

Good one Chas! I type so fast at times it's amazing I don't have more goofs I get ahead of myself I guess.... Sometimes I think my brain and fingers are a few mil. seconds apart.

Yes, it's a good job the Japanese don't have as derisive an attitude to foreigners in THEIR country, isn't it, 'gaijin'?

BTW, you want a hilarious look at how the Japanese mangle our language, look up 'japenglish' on Google, or start here: http://www.albertkok.nl/galleries/japenglish/

Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto!

And for the politically correct amongst us, you can also find great sites where westerners (especially tattoo parlors!) get Japanese and Chinese symbols utterly wrong and you end up walking around with 'rabbit droppings' or something like that on your body (permanently ) when you REALLY wanted 'harmony' (or something like that)...

Try this one too... a hoot!
http://www.engrish.com/

Quite by chance I got to play an Atelier at the home of a friend on Thursday. It is as you say - a transcendent experience. It was one of the top-end ones, with the full pedalboard. The sound quality transported me to another world.
.

Try this, though...

Turn OFF the internal speakers in the Atelier. Hook it up to a system you normally use for an arranger. Does it sound as impressive?

Probably not. An awful lot of the magic of great home organs comes from a big, beefy, non-direct sound system, optimized for bouncing off walls to fill the room with sound you hear indirectly. Not crappy little three or four inch speakers struggling to get even a semblance of full range sound at even low volumes, or crappy keyboard amps barely capable of being flat...

There's a LOT of money in those big sound systems for TOTL home organs. Put a T3 or G70 through something as capable, and you would be surprised at how good it sounds...

Diki,

Why can't you believe that these high end arrangers and organs can and do sound better than your trusty G70? I've heard the G70 and it's a nice arranger but the sound set isn't on par with my Wersi and from what I've heard from the Atelier I don't think the G70 competes.

Do you seriously think Roland could market the Atelier and sell it for an astronomical price if it weren't truly spectacular sounding? Consumers aren't about to drop that kind of money simply because its in a nice furniture cabinet. The Ateliers sound and features are very impressive and Roland has done a fine job at creating a high end instrument.


[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 11-22-2008).]

I have listened to the Atelier demos pretty carefully, Ensnareyou... Other than the Rodgers organ stuff and the new articulated sounds (which I think have a LONG way to go to even equal a T3), I can pretty much identify each and every sound in them as a G70 sound...

The brass, the strings, the drums, the basses... you name it, it sounds like my G70. Admittedly, I run my G70 through some pretty decent nearfields, rather than some lousy keyboard amp or whatever, so I'm used to being pretty impressed by it's sound. And I had an earlier lifetime, where I used to play and sell home organs, in the UK in the 70's.

One thing I learned back then was that home organ players are, on the whole pretty unsophisticated buyers, and tended to like whatever was lit up like a Christmas tree with gimmicks up the yinyang over better organs with less bells and whistles. And they were willing to pay EXORBITANT amounts of money, even in those days, for the pretty lights. So yes, I think you CAN sell something that doesn't even equal a TOTL arranger to someone that is hell bent on buying a huge home organ

And perhaps the reason why I still am unimpressed with the sound of some of these overpriced behemoths is that, so far, no-one has posted anything that I like! Yes, the demos for the Atelier are very well done. So are the factory demos for the G70 http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=656&ParentId=18 (and don't forget, these pre-date V3 and the per-part EQ - RolandUS haven't even acknowledged V3's existence, even over a year after it was released!). And BOTH of them are not live play... they are sequenced (as are most factory demos).

I am still at a loss as to why those that are the MOST strident about how good these �ber-expensive beasts are, are the ones apparently incapable of demoing this supposedly unarguable superiority. You would honestly think that, if they WERE the unassailable zenith of the keyboard world, at least one of you could have posted something that PROVES it...

(sound of crickets, chirping....)

Having been in home organ retail for 30+ years until a few years ago, I can tell you as a fact in the US, Lowrey organs far outsell Roland who hardly have any market at all.

As far as comparing the two, those that have a Lowrey or can A/B the 2 almost invariably will go Lowrey.

Until last year, my city (Rimini - Italy) hosted the major musical instruments italian expo (DISMA) and was the only place where I had the chances to play these monsters. and you had to use headphones to try them (due to the extreme noisy place). The last one I tried was the AT-90SL and I can confirm the majority of sounds are exactly the same as the G-70 sounds, even many styles are the same. They have added the rodgers organs, some theater organ samples, and different styles, (the style editing functions are much limited compared to the G-70 however).
Other than that, the difference is that you can layer more sounds together (If I remember correctly up to 5 on the upper keyboard and 4 on the lower), and using two manuals and a pedalboard, if you are a good player you can do things that with an arranger are impossible. But with the aastronomical price they have, you could buy many keyboards and a MIDI pedalboard and do pretty the same.

10.990,00 � ?? No thanks... I'd buy a Pa2x Pro and a Tyros 3 keeping my G-70 if I could spend that amount of money... and I would enjoy the best sounds of all the three worlds!

Diki

At the keyboard festival, apart from some players that used their own Bose system, all the keyboards and organs used the same sound system.
Pretty much all the keyboards (Yamaha were the exception) were demoed using high quality SR speaker systems, so direct comparison was apples with apples, and the Roland arrangers were the weakest out there.

As I have said before, forget online demos, go out and try one yourself (If there are no dealers in your area, just ask the distributor to point you in the direction of a local owner, most of who will be pleased to let you try it) as it�s the only way to hear what they are capable of.

MrDave

The AT90SL sounds the same as Roland arrangers because it uses the same sound engine; however the new models have a brand new sound engine, which leaves the old sound engine way behind.

Regards

Bill

Squeak,
Sounds like a softsynth, doesn't it?

Everyone,
see this: http://engrishfunny.com/ , please don't eat or drink while wiewing those pages, you may ruin the screen and keyboard.



[This message has been edited by trident (edited 11-23-2008).]

They must be mad.

I just got a Lowrey demo DVD and its risible. Their throwback range is a camp embarrassment. I'm frankly astonished they're still in business.

[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 11-23-2008).]

So, I hope the next Roland arranger will have that sound engine!!!

Most of this post has been Japanese or European sounding instruments, which is not to everybody�s taste, so I thought I would add American to the proceedings.
http://www.4shared.com/file/72808388/21038ca4/Lowery_1.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/72821830/c7b12e56/Lowery_2.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/72809944/312b6d30/Lowery_3.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/72810986/33f8252a/Lowery_4.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/72814036/50bf5039/Lowery_5.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/72817612/73dc25fe/Lowery_6.html


Bill

Diki,

As is typical with Roland and most keyboard manufacturers they will often have the same sounds in various instruments but these sounds are often sampled at higher BIT rates and use longer samples. Roland also uses better components on their higher end instruments such as CPU's, AD/DA, capacitors, and more stable power supplies which gives that instrument a much broader frequency response and richer sound. One look at the Atelier specs clearly shows the CPU is far more powerful than your beloved G-70. The Atelier has 384 notes of polyphony! Under the hood there's a lot more going on than just the Super Natural, Articulation, and Rodgers organ sounds.

I've said it many times before and you just can't seem to grasp the concept but without hearing the actual instrument in person you aren't really hearing the true instrument. An online demo is fine for you to get an idea of the type of sounds the instrument can produce, but it gives you no clue to the frequency response, noise level of the AD/DA's, or the wealth of features and real time controls the instrument has.

The Korg Oasys is a good case in point where without playing one in person most people believe it's just a Triton Studio or M3 with some added features which is not the case. The AD/DA's and frequency response of the Oasys is far superior to both. The dynamic range of the Oasys is truly incredible and only the Wersi and Lionstracs are on par. Actually the Lionstracs dynamic range is even broader. Of course without being able to AB these instruments you wouldn't know that. Instead you espouse your knowledge, or lack thereof, about instruments you've never played and expect others to take your words as fact.



[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 11-23-2008).]

Crickets chirping....

I gotta agree with Ensnareyou on this one Diki. Aren't the E50/60 soundsets.., when compared to the G-70 essentially the same thing Lee is saying? Haven't they been compared here before and comments made that the E line isn't quite on par with the G-70 sonically (even though we're talking same or very similiar soundsets)

Diki.., haven't you and others also said the E50/60 are baby G-70's...?? Similar sounds, but actual quality of the sound between them differs based on the components used between them.

I'll say this again all these pissin contests everyday about sounds, styles, mean squat its all about HOW YOU UTILIZE THEM AS A PLAYER....that is the bottom line...all this what is the best stuff is meaningless ...."what the music sounds like" that is being played is the ONLY thing that is important & of any relevance no matter what gear you use old or new..
All else is just talk talk talk.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-23-2008).]

Anymore Donny.., I wonder if it's even possible for us not to make "rainbows" with any topic posted Regardless.., someone always seems to have bladder issues

Yes Squeak even Wii can cause massive "Incontinence" always is quite quodlibet which IMO will never end....it's sad. Arranger KB's take teh back seat of the bus every time.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-23-2008).]

When you point your finger at others, you have three pointing back, gentlemen.

Like you guys never entered the "arena of incontinence" yourselves....who ya tryin' ta kid?

You guys are priceless.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-23-2008).]

one two cha cha cha

Same to you, Donny.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-23-2008).]

Sorry, guys, but I trust my ears a lot more than the unsubstantiated ramblings of a few die hard organ fans. Where are these figures? Where is the page that says the Ateliers have 24bit uncompressed samples? Where is the information about the s/n ratio, or frequency response? Or are you, as I suspect, sitting around going 'well, I ASSume that it MUST have these figures, because it's, well, so expensive!' I mean, they wouldn't charge that much because there are idiots willing to pay that, would they?

Apparently, it's easy enough to tell if one keyboard is lesser than another from web demos. You trust your ears on that, don't you? So why is it so hard to accept that you ought to be able to as easily hear something supposedly 'better' if it is $28,000 more expensive?

Look, folks... for that kind of money, I had better not be scratching my head trying to see if I can discern ANY difference between the Atelier and the G70 (other than the Tones it doesn't have)... it had better grab me by the nuts and stuff them down my throat It had better dislocate my jaw It had better leave me satiated in a puddle of my own juices

I certainly can't hear $28,000's worth of difference... can you?

Crickets chirping....

BTW, I VERY carefully compared the G70 and FantomX together, through a good system. I couldn't hear ANY difference in s/n, frequency response, sample quality (on samples they shared), or overall tone balance.

The FantomX was Roland's absolute TOTL WS. With it's BEST D/A's available. Not a single Roland product ever claimed better. Hence my reluctance to drop nearly $30k on something that doesn't even CLAIM to have better specs.

Sorry, guys, but uncompressed samples and a slightly better s/n ratio didn't make the Oasys a viable product... there are STILL far more Fantoms, Motif's and Tritons on the radio today than Oasys's. Apparently, the guys that do this for a living don't think you have to spend gobs of money for a few db difference no-one is ever going to hear.

And I'm STILL waiting for that 'I GOTTA have one of these!' demos from the Wersi and 'home organ' fanboys... Do you chaps ever actually play them, or is it more of a Spinal Tap scene where you sit around and just look at them and go

'NIGEL: Just listen for a minute....
MARTY: I�m not....
NIGEL: The sustain...listen to it...
MARTY: I�m not hearing anything.
NIGEL: You would, though, if it were playing, because it really ... it�s famous for its sustain...I mean, you could, just hold it....'

Yeah.... just listen to that sample rate! Well, at least you could if you POSTED ANY MUSIC

Diki,

Its well known that many manufacturers utilize better components in their higher end products and the result is a broader frequency response and lower signal to noise ratio. For example... Roland made the R880 Reverb as well as the SRV330 reverb which supposedly used many of the same algorithms. The R880 was around $5K, the SRV330 about $1K. While some of the algorithms may have been similar the sound of these two devices was in no way similar. The R880 utilized high end 24 BIT Burr Brown AD/DA converters, WIMA high grade capacitors throughout, and two power supplies, one for the analog side and one for the digital side. Auditioning these two units side by side using the same type of rooms, halls, or plates would easily open anyones ears as to why there was a huge price difference.

Roland also uses these same build methods in their professional keyboard line. Their top of the line instruments have better AD/DA, high end capacitors, and more robust power supplies. Just because they don't tout these differences doesn't mean they don't exist.

I know you believe your beloved G70 to be on par with the Atelier Series but I'm sure if you put them side by side you wouldn't be saying that they were comparable. Sometimes you do have to play an instrument in person to know the sonic differences.

As I already said, if I have to physically be in front of an instrument that is $28,000 more expensive than another to tell the difference,,,,

There isn't enough difference

Diki.., do you have to stand in front of a 2008 Maybach to know it's better than the top end Mercedes Sedan? Same corp. that builds the two cars..., both high end luxury vehicles.., both look similiar (long and short base models).., but one clearly is built better, sounds better and performs better.

Can't you apply the same principle to these two Rolands...??? Couldn't you look at say the E-80 and G-70 as the higher end Mercedes Sedans.., and the top Roland Organ as the Maybach of the Roland line?

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-25-2008).]

Totally unimpressed... as usual, with these instruments, at this price range, they should sound much, much better than this...

I tried also the style demos found here: http://www.allensmusiccentre.co.uk/lowrey/media_centre/audio/audio.html, but they sounds like an old GM module... only 1 drumkit for all styles, only 1 fill-in, 1 variation.... Ateliers sounds much better than Lowrey... and Pa2x sounds better than Ateliers...

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 11-25-2008).]

A very good Pro arranger KB friend of mine, now retired.....bought a T2/E80 and after 6 months traded them both in for the TOTL Roland Atelier....he loves it......sent me a CD he recorded also which I really enjoyed also.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.aspx?ParentId=79

Diki,
I have followed your reasoning through this and many threads, and I believe that you are one of the most articulated here...

but Squeak has a point.

You also have to take production cost into consideration here as well. I can only imagine the difference in cost between Roland's high end Organ.., and the E80/G70.

Cases like this aren't apples and oranges. It's more the difference of apples and potatos!

I believe in my ears alone... No hype, no smoke and mirrors, no bull.

The only thing a Mibach gives you over a regular car is exclusivity. A car is a tool to get you from A to B. Above a certain point of quality, all these vast increases buy you is something your neighbor can't afford, but doesn't need. His tool to get from A to B is equally as good as yours. You merely spent ten times as much as him, to get a perhaps a 10% increase in comfort. The other 90% you spent was ego, pure and simple.

Wealthy retirees are constantly paying through the nose to one up their rivals. And getting little for it except vanity. OK, OK, I'l concede that perhaps the Atelier MIGHT be a bit better than a G70!

But not TEN TIMES BETTER (3 grand versus thirty). And, like I said, if you can't tell something that costs ten times more than something else from a factory demo (a good one, at that!) then you are wasting your money. I can't tell ANY difference from the demo.

And, if you weren't just hell bent on trying to justify the obscene prices of these barely better hulking arrangers, you MIGHT admit that you can't hear it too (unless you are in it's august majesty's presence)...

Give it a rest, guys... you can HEAR the difference between a 2 grand E60 and a 3 grand G70... But you CAN'T hear the difference between a 3 grand G70 and a 30 grand Atelier.

Waste your kids inheritance for all I care (they are going to depreciate faster than a Mibach, that's for sure!) but don't try to persuade me there's a difference I can't hear...

Anyone ever hear the term 'diminishing returns'?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 11-25-2008).]

BTW, of course feel free to pile on MY opinion, because it's simply based on listening to factory demos.

But it's curious how none of you have said WORD ONE about mrdave's personal, up close and direct A/B comparison of Atelier and G70. I know I'm everyone favorite debating partner, but to keep repeating the same old line because it's easy to try to browbeat someone that hasn't stood in the real thing's presence (but apparently has ears - me, I'm more impressed with the recorded sound of something than it's live 'aura'!... you can't beat a decent blind test), but here's a guy who DID listen VERY carefully to the Atelier. And has, let's just be kind and say a contrary opinion to yours...

And what do you say to THAT...?

Crickets chirping...

Diki

I did reply to MrDaves comparison, however as usual you conveniently miss every post (Including the reply from MrDave) that doesn�t agree with YOUR opinion.

The old range of Ateliers was about the same price as the new ones and used Roland�s current arranger sound engine, with the difference in price being facilities and extra production costs, (Another post from SqueakD you conveniently missed) therefore if the new sound engine was transferred over to a new arranger, then the price of the new arranger would not be much more then Roland�s current arrangers.

Regards

Bill

Just to add another bit of info to the discussion, and my opinion on prices:

Some years ago, during the usual Roland expo, they offered me the Atelier they had on display there for around � 8.000, it was the AT90S (the next year the AT60SL came out). At that price I was somewhat tempted to get it, comparing its sounds to the current arranger I had at the time (VA-7), but... after considering the pratically absent market these beast have in Italy, I ended up refusing the offer.

So just consider the price drop these things have, from � 30.000 after some years you're lucky if you are able to sell them at less than � 8.000...

The AT-900C costs around 15.000 euros, without pedalboard, if it would cost around � 8.000 WITH pedalboard, perhaps I could consider buying one... but the dead market question remains. It seems in Italy nobody want to study or play organs anymore (apart from classical ones).

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 11-26-2008).]

The CEO of Rolex, Andre Heiniger, once famously remarked that Rolex isn't in the watch business, it's in the luxury business.

Products like the Maybach and the Atelier are not cars and musical instruments respectively. They are luxury goods. And priced accordingly.

[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 11-26-2008).]

-



[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 11-26-2008).]

nigel,
Since when ...if you mistype your password when posting & use your back button to fix it do you loose your whole post?
Lee S.

Intersting thread...

OK, I have spent a lot of time listening to the STAGEA and Wersi Abacus duo deluxe (for example)...
I have had Yamaha Electones (80's models) T3, and now PA2XPRO. I have great speakers, so that's not the problem.

Non of them sound like these instruments.
No arranger I have ever played/heard sounds even close. With these instruments the individual orchestrial sounds are clear and stand out. The overall Mix is great and the quality of sound is very nice indeed. Just listen to those French Horns! Oboe's, Strings, Tibia's etc.

And, the playing options are super.

Listen to these in there entirety, then tell me of any arraner today that can compete with this sound and playability.

I think with the arrangers they just don't spend the time to get the sounds right. Some of the samples have big problems with them etc. It does not show up playing fast music to a crowd of drunken dancers...play the more orchestrial, ballads, movie music, slower music with feeling etc. and there they are.

If I understand it...you can't even buy a Yamaha StageA here! And you can barely get a Wersi, one dealer, good guy, but no support from the German factory. If I wanted to go and spend a day or two to audition some of the Wersi models...where do I find them?

These instrumens can play any music...not just the lawrence welk stuff & pokas. They sound superb and are very playable. So why the 'H' are they so gone in the US?? It's not beacause the old folks that bought them died out...what is the average age of us arranger players (I'm 62)?

Here is a few samples...there is plenty more..You may not like my choice of songs, once your there pick something different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9n4DJmj_SQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86VIU3ZDb1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16oaGSltUPE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQnREIh3Uw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaMw63ueoVw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBYw8trhMJU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztY2UvLEhQ4

I won't really be happy until I get that quality of sound...somehow. And one little 61 note keyboard ain't going to cut it... Yamaha.

It's not just speakers...those instruments sound super... I'm not completely sure why.
Sure the TOTL arranger have some great sounds...but not this sound too.

I've added a second keyboard, pedals etc to both T3 and PA2...not the same integration and playing features as those organs. And you have to do your own sound setups etc.- takes forever.

So, I wander how I get a StageA here in the US? Maybe a used Wersi, but then what do I do when it breaks or I need an upgrade from Germany?

Lee S.

You can order a StageA from Japan or Taiwan. If you want, I can get in touch with a Yamaha dealer here in Taiwan.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Taike,
Won't it all be in Japanese...since they do not import to US?
Lee

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/result.php

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Hey Scott...how ya doing...
Lee here from IN.....

I heard a $40,000 Lowry organ played by a Lowry demo guy a while back..
My PA2 and old T2 would blow it away.
The sounds mostly sucked. Some were OK, a few were good.

The Yamaha STAGEA is more my cup of tea.
But, can not buy one here in USA.
That sucks too.
Lee S.