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#248780 - 11/25/08 02:50 AM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
As I already said, if I have to physically be in front of an instrument that is $28,000 more expensive than another to tell the difference,,,,

There isn't enough difference
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#248781 - 11/25/08 04:58 AM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Diki.., do you have to stand in front of a 2008 Maybach to know it's better than the top end Mercedes Sedan? Same corp. that builds the two cars..., both high end luxury vehicles.., both look similiar (long and short base models).., but one clearly is built better, sounds better and performs better.

Can't you apply the same principle to these two Rolands...??? Couldn't you look at say the E-80 and G-70 as the higher end Mercedes Sedans.., and the top Roland Organ as the Maybach of the Roland line?

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-25-2008).]
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#248782 - 11/25/08 05:10 AM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
mrdave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Rimini, Italy
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
[B]Most of this post has been Japanese or European sounding instruments, which is not to everybody’s taste, so I thought I would add American to the proceedings.
http://www.4shared.com/file/72808388/21038ca4/Lowery_1.html ...


Totally unimpressed... as usual, with these instruments, at this price range, they should sound much, much better than this...

I tried also the style demos found here: http://www.allensmusiccentre.co.uk/lowrey/media_centre/audio/audio.html, but they sounds like an old GM module... only 1 drumkit for all styles, only 1 fill-in, 1 variation.... Ateliers sounds much better than Lowrey... and Pa2x sounds better than Ateliers...

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 11-25-2008).]

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#248783 - 11/25/08 05:16 AM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
A very good Pro arranger KB friend of mine, now retired.....bought a T2/E80 and after 6 months traded them both in for the TOTL Roland Atelier....he loves it......sent me a CD he recorded also which I really enjoyed also.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.aspx?ParentId=79

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#248784 - 11/25/08 06:37 AM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
Diki.., do you have to stand in front of a 2008 Maybach to know it's better than the top end Mercedes Sedan? Same corp. that builds the two cars..., both high end luxury vehicles.., both look similiar (long and short base models).., but one clearly is built better, sounds better and performs better.

Can't you apply the same principle to these two Rolands...??? Couldn't you look at say the E-80 and G-70 as the higher end Mercedes Sedans.., and the top Roland Organ as the Maybach of the Roland line?

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-25-2008).]


Diki,
I have followed your reasoning through this and many threads, and I believe that you are one of the most articulated here...

but Squeak has a point.

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#248785 - 11/25/08 06:52 AM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
You also have to take production cost into consideration here as well. I can only imagine the difference in cost between Roland's high end Organ.., and the E80/G70.

Cases like this aren't apples and oranges. It's more the difference of apples and potatos!
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#248786 - 11/25/08 05:20 PM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
I believe in my ears alone... No hype, no smoke and mirrors, no bull.

The only thing a Mibach gives you over a regular car is exclusivity. A car is a tool to get you from A to B. Above a certain point of quality, all these vast increases buy you is something your neighbor can't afford, but doesn't need. His tool to get from A to B is equally as good as yours. You merely spent ten times as much as him, to get a perhaps a 10% increase in comfort. The other 90% you spent was ego, pure and simple.

Wealthy retirees are constantly paying through the nose to one up their rivals. And getting little for it except vanity. OK, OK, I'l concede that perhaps the Atelier MIGHT be a bit better than a G70!

But not TEN TIMES BETTER (3 grand versus thirty). And, like I said, if you can't tell something that costs ten times more than something else from a factory demo (a good one, at that!) then you are wasting your money. I can't tell ANY difference from the demo.

And, if you weren't just hell bent on trying to justify the obscene prices of these barely better hulking arrangers, you MIGHT admit that you can't hear it too (unless you are in it's august majesty's presence)...

Give it a rest, guys... you can HEAR the difference between a 2 grand E60 and a 3 grand G70... But you CAN'T hear the difference between a 3 grand G70 and a 30 grand Atelier.

Waste your kids inheritance for all I care (they are going to depreciate faster than a Mibach, that's for sure!) but don't try to persuade me there's a difference I can't hear...

Anyone ever hear the term 'diminishing returns'?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 11-25-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#248787 - 11/25/08 05:31 PM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
BTW, of course feel free to pile on MY opinion, because it's simply based on listening to factory demos.

But it's curious how none of you have said WORD ONE about mrdave's personal, up close and direct A/B comparison of Atelier and G70. I know I'm everyone favorite debating partner, but to keep repeating the same old line because it's easy to try to browbeat someone that hasn't stood in the real thing's presence (but apparently has ears - me, I'm more impressed with the recorded sound of something than it's live 'aura'!... you can't beat a decent blind test), but here's a guy who DID listen VERY carefully to the Atelier. And has, let's just be kind and say a contrary opinion to yours...

And what do you say to THAT...?

Crickets chirping...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#248788 - 11/25/08 10:35 PM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5354
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Diki

I did reply to MrDaves comparison, however as usual you conveniently miss every post (Including the reply from MrDave) that doesn’t agree with YOUR opinion.

The old range of Ateliers was about the same price as the new ones and used Roland’s current arranger sound engine, with the difference in price being facilities and extra production costs, (Another post from SqueakD you conveniently missed) therefore if the new sound engine was transferred over to a new arranger, then the price of the new arranger would not be much more then Roland’s current arrangers.

Regards

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#248789 - 11/26/08 06:10 AM Re: Yamaha Stagea ELS-01C..WOOOWWWEEE!!!!!!!
mrdave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Rimini, Italy
Just to add another bit of info to the discussion, and my opinion on prices:

Some years ago, during the usual Roland expo, they offered me the Atelier they had on display there for around € 8.000, it was the AT90S (the next year the AT60SL came out). At that price I was somewhat tempted to get it, comparing its sounds to the current arranger I had at the time (VA-7), but... after considering the pratically absent market these beast have in Italy, I ended up refusing the offer.

So just consider the price drop these things have, from € 30.000 after some years you're lucky if you are able to sell them at less than € 8.000...

The AT-900C costs around 15.000 euros, without pedalboard, if it would cost around € 8.000 WITH pedalboard, perhaps I could consider buying one... but the dead market question remains. It seems in Italy nobody want to study or play organs anymore (apart from classical ones).

[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 11-26-2008).]

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