Arranger players like myself who use styles exclusively when performing, have a tough nut to crack as we get more and more contemporary requests.

This is super subjective, of course, but I try and do pretty faithful renditions of any tune I play. So, last night when I got a request for some Police tunes (Da do doo, da da da, for example...) There isn't a style I'm aware of that can do a close to the vest rendition of what happens in that song. Can I approximate it...well, parts of it...Same for some Kansas stuff people have asked me for...

Unless styles take a quantum leap in the next few years, I'll be forced to consider using midi files which I have not used yet in the last 13 years.

Thoughts?

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-29-2008).]

Yes, I don't do requests

Bill...
your kind of late.....Laptop/Mp3/SMF

or make your own on a Synth/workstation.

and do you think they care if you just played an Police or Kansas MP3? Times are changing .....All on board the DJ train Whooo Hooo!!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-29-2008).]

Bill.., this is a problem we've been talking about for some time with arrangers. Their styles although written very well.., are starting to fall behind the times. There's a generation change happening here, and the arranger makers aren't keeping up with that. Even the styles they consider to be "modern versions" are still behind.

The problem I see (or should I say hear) is that these keyboard companies have the wrong types of musicians creating the modern styles. It would appear that this team who does a very good job at creating the more traditional styles are also the same team trying to replicate the more modern styles as well. When that happens you end up with modern styles that aren't quite there.., or Hip Hop styles on a current arranger that sound more like Cheese Hop.

I don't think the crowd really cares about replicating a cover. If you are close enough, play the correct chords/theory and use your imagination, it'll sell every time. I know most appreciate hearing different arrangements. I personally do not use mp3s and hopefully never will. The arranger sounds its best when used as designed. Who wants to sound exactly like the last act?

Zuki....


Try doing a Younger Wedding today 20-25 yrs old with JUST an arranger KB

Exactly Donny! Zuki go into a wedding loaded with 20-30 years olds and see how long a waltz, big band, and ballroom style would last.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-29-2008).]

Squeak......although at that same Wedding there will be older & younger so you have to really MIX it up for today's crowds.....nothing wrong with a little arranger style play mixed with Smf & Mp3's we have all the tools available to us ...why not USE THEM in your arsenal?

Given the time to work up the proper material (I don't do 20 year old gigs), I could pull it off arranger style only.

Still in Denial Zuki ? I would say the 20-45 yr old groups would be the same scenario....arranger KB playing all night at a big affair 300-400pp 4 hrs night after night is not popular in todays world people want to Party!! Mixing it up shows off your talents..
Why the reluctance? its all good ....
its all entertaining..



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-29-2008).]

Well.., my wife and I attended a wedding this summer. The age average there was 21-33. There was a crowd of older guests too. The keyboard player was in his 50's, and was using a PSR-3000.

He was a very good player too. He did play modern styles of music, but those styles DID NOT go over well on the PSR-3000. He mixed it up very well with different styles of music, but the 3000 like many arrangers out there (even the current one's) aren't quite there with their modern styles.

Zuki.., that's fine if you don't do the 20+ crowd (even though I think that's a bit snobbish to say because if you find yourself one day on a gig where this group is there.., what then? It sounds a bit limiting to me when you snob out a group like that), but if you do one of these gigs and use an arranger keyboard (even a new one).., you either get busy writing your own styles.., or as Donny stated. You better have some MP3's or some very well written SMF's. It's not to knock the player, but these arrangers are not pulling off those styles of music well.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-29-2008).]

I think it's important, at least for me, to choose the kind of venues that suit your style of playing.

My little niche is instrumental dinner music....I love doing this type of gig...play in the background, and pick pretty well what I want to play.

I don't do dances or weddings, except for the suppers, and I usually don't requests.

I also have my styles suited for this type of venue, don't have to play loud, and use an S900 which is light and easy to carry...speakers are small and light as well.

I'm picky about where I play, and it keeps the stress level way down, and I still do quite well financially.

Ian

I think you should ignore reqests. You are an artist, you decide what you play. another
fenomen is when they whant you to play there
favoriteartist!!!!!! Once I had a special reqeast...then I askt him what song is that..and he told me...that is not a song, itis a radiostation,and it plays very good
music!!!!! Tryggve

Ian being your an background instrumentalist as you state & dont sing or do big venues is your choice of course glad your happy but it aint for me at all....myself I like to do it all...from the small cocktail hour to a 500pp pumped up Weddings & Dances makes it very enjoyable and exciting and profitable...
I use all tools at my disposal, I'm dam good at it wheather KB only at a small affair or Full Bore Mix at a Big venue & as long as these DJ's cut into our scene you had better step up, keep your head above water or your gonna drown unless you financially comfortable



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-29-2008).]

great way to disappoint your audiences for sure.Please elaborate I dont know how they do it in Sweden but I'd love to hear your philosophy on this ?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-29-2008).]

I agree with Donny. You're being hired to play music.., shouldn't the person who hired you also have a say in what they're paying you to play? You're the artist, getting paid so YOU decide. That's a little messed up IMO.

I guess I'm fortunate that I can choose my gigs to suit my type of playing, and I don't have to work a whole lot to get by quite well.

I own my home (no mortgage), and my car is paid for, so my expenses are at a minimum...I don't drink or smoke, so that's another saving as well.

I buy a new mid-line arranger about every three years, so my initial investment is small, and my Yamaha speakers are 15 years old and perfect for my type of gig.

My needs are simple, so I work accordingly.

Ian

Ian that's great but if your a full time pro & when you have 4 kids & a family depending on YOU restaurants just dont cut it my friend financially.....dont get me wrong I respect all performers doing their thing but we all have to do what we have to do in this world.

Good luck to you.

My friend. The people have hired me becase they know what they are gona gett. We in the band are know`n for our special style,We only play dancemusic(scandinavian
dancemusic) A lot of ABBA ,Rockmusic S.Twain
countrylike music.We chain songs often,but not the style.But what do you do if they ask for..say classic music.No I`m the artist
I`m to decide what to play.Otherwise I`ll could call me a jukebox.
Sorry for the poor spelling. Tryggve

That's true, Donny...I'm divorced, no kids...it sure would be tougher if I had a family to support, or an alimony to pay.

I'm not going to get rich, but I don't want to...I'm happy with "enough" and a less stressful lifestyle.

Ian

As a BAND request can be more difficult with other members .....but I think were talking about single players?

Ok. it is a little different. ButI do both..
single and in a band. But what I is trying to say is...If your a known say..latinsinger
and player, and they whant you to play rock or country that not right,the one who hired you, has a responabillity to hire the right artist. //Tryggve

Before someone hires YOU, haven't they heard YOUR act/show/whatever?
If they heard you and hired you because you play a certain style as a OMB/Arranger player, they should not expect more ... If they heard you and hired you because you play kb/MP3/SMF, that's what they should expect and that's what they should get ...

t.

I think that, regardless of your philosophy, you should bite the bullet, and arm yourself with a variety of midi's, and or MP3's. Wheras I play mostly arranger styles, I bring my laptop loaded with midi's, and played through a good soundcard and Notation Composer. They are set up as lead sheets and appropriate reg's are keyed to them. I then can play over them and or sing them.

This way, I am covered for the unexpected and sure can provide a better variety as it is called for. I also use MP3 for cover dance tunes.

Bernie

I have not heard of a single act who does cover tunes NOT take requests. MY wife carrys hundreds of SMF files and CD tracks of songs she doesn't normally play but has them just in case she gets a request. The tip jar fills up quickly with requests. She encourages requests.

She claims is getting paid as a live juke box for the client and should play what people want to hear. But then again she does not consider herself as a cover player an "artist."

More like someone who traces on tracing paper over the artist.

I never thought I'd use midi files. When I first heard the concept, I thought well that's just not going to happen. Then..........I started including some singing which I had never done. Gotta say it's a lot easier for me to do vocals when I have a midi file to back me, especially when the backing sounds like the original. I recently played a dinner dance, age 50 to 85 years of age. I think there may have been one 10 year old who was with her grand parents. Someone asked me to play Deliah so they could dance to it. Just so happens I have that in my library. It went over very well had quite a few people on the dance floor, no one came to me and said hey you really weren't playing that tune were you??

Bottom line I want to keep the audience happy and if that's what it takes..........I will. Naturally it's not my preferred way.

First..a non stressful lifestyle...I own it..

I do what I want..day or night...Play gigs because I want to.....not because I have to..

Like Ian, I do not have to be concerned with mortgage payments...still have a wife ..so alimony doesn't exist..

Kids are grown and doing well...Grand-kids are spoiled at my wife's expense...

Secondly...using all the tools available to us..is a smart thing..

When I work with the band (trio)..we use mostly MP3 backing tracks (our own)...and SMF's , also recorded as MP3's..
I seldom use the arranger mode in the trio..

For breaks, I play MP3 cover tunes...


When I work as a solo..I use a lot of straight up keyboard...bass(left hand), drums and piano...not a lot of arranger mode..I rely on SMF's(I do depend on lyrics shown)..and depending on the venue (sometimes replacing a DJ)..I use MP3's...and you bet your bippy, I take request..

My arsenal, besides my G70....a laptop that has around 150,000 SMF's..yes 150,000...and my MP3 library of around 15,000 tunes...
I use Copernic desktop as a quick search and play...when I am a pseudo DJ...

WinAmp is my choice of audio/MP3 player and VanBasco my Midi Player...

I couldn't be any more comfortable than I am today....now if I can figure out a way to cut my driving time to the shore...it could be "perfect"...

REQUESTS
1-If I have it with me and I know it, I play. (Why not?)

2-If the request takes me away from the direction I am going:
I tried never to just play any song, I follow an objective – Build the crowd to a high point – Calm them down dinner was about to be served – I wanted the last 40 minutes of the job to become the most exciting part of the night --- We normally went into overtime or they left in a great mood. (They were feeling up) -- If the request was going in my direction I played it. I did this with my band and latter when I became a OMB. It was successful, it brought in the dollars and approval.

Bernie said, “Come loaded” He is so right.
3-Contemporary music can not be played well by a OMB live! Since the crowds are normally mixed we should be prepared with a SMF to sing along with, and it does not necessarily have to be made by me. In most cases it is better if it’s not, I do not a feel for all types of music, to say so might make me feel good but it would be a lie.

4-This is for me, it is the reason why I am backing off the type of jobs I have been playing.
If your voice does not fit contemporary music do not sing. When Sinatra crossed over and tried he offended many of his fans, he did sound terrible.
I’m from the music of the past, I have a better feel for it, better then the majority of contemporary players. And that goes the other way also. Yes I can do it but it would be heartless to charge for it.

5-If I do not wish to sing the contemporary song the crowd should not be disappointed ---- and so I have an audio complete in itself played by the people who know and feel this type of music.

IMHO, John C.

1. Personally, I found that when you cover a song using a style, that the audience doesn't react the same as hearing a sequence that songs like what is heard on the radio.
So, I have no problem using a midi sequence.

2. Styles can not handle a " bridge" to a song.

As an example ( I do not perform this song) but Stair Way to Heaven has a slow part, than changes to a fast part or Bohemium Rapsody as another example.

When entertaining, the customer like's to identify the song.

In my case, I'm asked to do the majority of the society gigs around here. The rest are restaurant and jazz gigs. I've been working here (Lexington) over 45 years. No one hires me without knowing what I do. I politely turn down jobs where the fit isn't right.

Restaurants pay $150.00, but lead to lots of $250 plus gigs.

I honor requests that fit the format of the event and my style. That means no Jimmy Buffet but any jazz standard. Buffet just wouldn't fit the venue(s). I'd please one person and piss off lots of others.

This works for me. I turn down more gigs a year than I take.


Russ

I now turn down all gigs, play only what I want to play, on what I want to play it on.
No strain, no pain, no stress, just happy music.
Just sign me an ex gigging musician financially independent
Thanks Jann, she gave me permission to write that
Bebop

Squeak,

Not playing for 20s is not snobbish, it's doing THEM a favor. I have a 20 year old and he would hire me LAST to do his party

That said, I could go the smf route, but like Ian said, it's about where and who we want to play for. I'm content to stay away from wedding gigs, etc. Been there, done that, don't need it.

Besides, the senior market certainly allows one to stretch and I do my fair share of kick---- music

Two main points. The venue hired you to do what they know you CAN do, unless you actually billed yourself as a DJ and an "I can play ANY tune, any time" novelty act. So a request FAR from your normal repertoire can quite easily be deflected with an "I'm sorry, I don't play that song. Here's another one you might like, and I'll play your request on the break from my DJ collection" (not many here can sing Sting anyway!).

But also, the venue is hiring you to provide the music they thinks best suits the majority of their customers. So, if you are at an upscale restaurant or country club, and some kid eating there with his parents comes up and wants the latest Mettalica, you don't for one minute think you are obliged to play it, do you?

In the original case, I would have said "sorry, I don't do that one, but do you like Fields of Gold, or Every Breath You Take, or Fragile?", Sting songs that are more appropriate to the venue. If not needed, at least you have shown a willingness to meet the requester half-way, and they go back to their seat happy. Or if they are still unsatisfied, you have at least TRIED, and you aren't a juke-box, no matter what the stupid brat thinks you should be!

And the venue owner will be grateful you didn't spoil the mood of his place!

So how does these opinions all help Bill?

Bill asked for thoughts, not help

Thoughts = Help

Just got home from a triple...Pleased to see I provoked such a productive & polite exchange...

My thoughts on your thoughts:

*This was directed towards OMB's, for sure...

*I DO take requests...and will continue to do so. Its an easy way, when possible, to build customer and fan loyalty...

*Do I think my audience would care if I used midi files? YES! I consistently got compliments from clients and my audience how nice it is to see someone who actually knows how to play an instrument. Some AD's, in fact, have told me outright that the acts that rely on midi files, karaoke, etc. aren't going to get as many gigs as they have in the past. Why? Because the audience "senses" they're not as authentic as the performers who actually "play."

*"Close enough" is a pretty subjective thing. I'd prefer to just beg off on a request before I put a square song in a round style, if you will...

*My specific point wasn't contemporary music in general, I do lots of stuff from the Eagles, Elton John, Hall & Oates, Beatles, Stones, Badfinger with no problem at all. My thing is with the more distinct sounding bands and/or songs, these styles aren't what I need all the time.

...further, think of some of the lines that are the foundation of some pop songs. Carry On, Aqualung, are 2 examples I've had asked of me in the last few months. As the guitar replaced the piano as the primary rhythm instrument in bands, that's where we're likely to find the line of demarcation. Frankly, the standards, big band, classic country, oldies rock are easy to find quality styles that fit properly.

*Like Zuki says, doing an evening of "contempory stuff" isn't that hard. But, for some tunes...its tough...

*I certainly cater to a more mature crowd (40's +) Most of you know I hate restaurants jobs (even though I try one every year it seems, lol)...I'm in a good place where I can take the kind of gigs I want to and turn away the ones I don't.

*My concern with using midi files is that they'll sound too perfect, too much like the record...It'd be on me then to find a way to make it my own, but its a totally different direction for me.

...Who knows? It may suck and I'll move on without it or, I may find it liberating, lol...



------------------
Bill in Dayton

MIDI files sound exactly the way you make them sound, and can be made to leave as much room for REAL playing (not LH chords and RH melody line) as you wish...

If SOME folk use them as karaoke tracks, that's no more the fault of the medium than the lousy one finger arranger player that gets you all the bad rap in the first place.

"Close enough" and playing requests is synonymous

So.....you're excluding yourself as an arranger player - just curious!

So LH chords, and RH melody isn't "REAL playing"?

What is?

Would you say playing a mono synth line on a Minimoog over chords on Hammond isn't "real" playing?

Or a melody line on the upper manual of the latter and chords on the lower manual?

Seemed to be pretty "real" for Keith Emerson and many others, including me...not that I consider myself in their league.

I can't imagine you having an elitist attitude about this Diki, but I would be curious why you would make such a statement.

Ian the Inquisitive

Through various posts, it seems that your only a real player if your a pianist playing over midi files and if you use the arranger chord trigger functions (LH). You’re just a karaoke, lazy entertainer and does not care to practice and better themselves......

Did I miss anything?

Oops, I almost forgot, you can use the right hand to hold a drink since the left is doing everything for you.




[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-30-2008).]

Forgot to mention the accordion player( which was one of my first instruments, as it was for many on SZ)...RH melody and single finger(well sometimes two)chords...not "REAL playing"?

Arranger players get enough of a bad rap without getting it here too...on an "arranger forum", no less.

Ian

Don Mason gave me some words of wisdom a few years ago. He said that when you cover a tune you don't need to sound like the original. You wouldn't expect Elvis to sound like the Beatles if he were singing "I Saw Her Standing There". However, you still need to perform the song musically well and in a professional manner.

Tom

I use full keyboard setting and basically do a blend of the following...

Primary (50%): RH chording, LH bass, vocal covers the melody...

Secondary (35%): LH Chords, RH fills under vocal...

Other (15%): LH chords, RH plays lead...

Given my playing style, what modifications would I likely need to do to the midi file (as simple as mute the piano part? or, to my actual playing?



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Tom, you’re so right, as the song comes out pleasing to everyone ears, no matter how you play the keyboard.

Don's 100% right...

However, IMO, for me only...I am more comfortable with a fairly respectful, conservative version of a tune. I really can't think of a single song that I've taken from its original essence and turned into something utterly different. Of course some styles may be instrumentally different, but to my ears, at least-I've kept the essence of the tune in tact.

There's an imaginary line that I don't want to cross...



------------------
Bill in Dayton

It is wisdom not to compare what is needed on the job with what I feel at home where I do what I like to do. (Musically that is, grin)

I do not play along with, or sing with SMF files when I am at home. Home and jobs are two different venues. When I become more important than the person who has hired me to do a job I feel I have crossed over the line of good ethics both as a musician and a person.

When I played a wedding or an anniversary I want those people to have a time they will not forget –and so goes my career and success in the business.
Think of the other person first and then we get blessed.

IMHO, John C.

AT TIMES, yes, even Emerson, Wakeman, whoever are your personal favorite keyboard players would sustain something in their LH, and solo like a madman over the top of it. AT TIMES.

At other times, they would play full keyboard parts, whether piano, synths, organs, you name it. At other times, they would play complex stuff on two (or more!) different keyboards at the same time. Contrapuntal stuff, complex rhythmical stuff, jazzy stuff, you name it.

And don't get me started on jazz keyboard players!

Look, don't get defensive... YOU were the ones slamming the use of SMF's. Just because apparently a large percentage of you think that doing so involves downloading a probably pirated commercial SMF off of some website, opening it on the sequencer in your arranger, and playing something over the top of it without the SLIGHTEST effort at editing it, or muting all the parts you want to play (or CAN play) other than MAYBE the melody track, doesn't mean that that is ALL it can do...

You see? Feel free to trivialize one form of making music with machines (it's what we are ALL doing, don't kid yourself), but get outraged when somebody (to make a point) trivializes another...

Yes OF COURSE you CAN do far more than play simple one finger chords with your LH and struggle to get even the melody played correctly in the RH on an arranger... But that doesn't mean an awful lot of people aren't doing it that way (I can't, for instance, remember the last demo anyone posted here where they actually strayed much away from the melody and blew a REAL solo - I know there have been some, but I can't for the life of me remember the last one).

But here you are, all outraged that this has been mentioned...

Well, as a user of completely customized SMF's (as well as arranger mode, and drums and LH bass, too), I guess I am equally outraged over the widespread assumption that playing over SMF's is Karaoke. It's only karaoke if you MAKE it karaoke, and arranger playing is only LH chords, RH melody note IF YOU MAKE IT THAT WAY!

So, while you get all worked up about what I said (I was surprised mc didn't QUITE get around to personally insulting me, what happened? ), try to understand that what some of YOU said about SMF usage is EQUALLY wrong (and right, in some cases!)...

Either mode is as capable of being misused as the other...

Thanks Diki...you're a man of few words.

I was not being defensive...I have no reason...calm down...just wanted a clarification.

Thanks again.

Ian

Actually, it wasn't just your post I was responding to...

Just seems there are an awful lot of defensive guys around here if you bring up simple LH chord, RH melody playing around here...

Makes you wonder WHY they are so sensitive

Yes, but you are very sensitive too, my friend, or you wouldn't have responded the way you did...so I guess it all evens out.

Sensitive and passionate musicians we are here...

Ian

PS...didn't get a chance to try a Tyros3 yet?

LOL, I guess you are right there...

I guess I shouldn't get worked up about comments that merely display the poster's ignorance about the issue

Mind you, that wouldn't leave a lot here, sometimes, would it?

No dealer in my local area stocks Tyros line. Maybe if it gets to Pensacola (Scott, any news?) I'll give it a spin. But it's a bad time down here to be donking off nearly $4k with the way the tourists have been staying away...

I would be shocked to learn people in that age group would even hire an Arranger keyboard player for weddings over a band or DJ and expect modern day music.

kingfrog....that's why you have to mix it up with smf/mp3/good vocals & live arranger and be ready to do it all.....go for it!

Diki ... I love jazz (I have WBGO out of New Jersey streaming on the pc as I am writing this http://www.wbgo.org/listennow/ ), and love to listen to true artists take a tune and "make it their own" during the solos ... I enjoy it when I turn on a jazz station in the middle of a great solo and try to find the chord progression that tells me the title before the artists get back to the melody line ... BUT, not everyone wants to hear a song played like that ...
I will be the first to admit that I do not have the 'chops' many of you have ... unfortunately, I did not apply myself as I should have as a youngster ... But I did listen enough to my parents' and music teacher's pleading for me to "PRACTICE!!!" to bring myself to a level of competency that has brought me countless hours of making music that other people enjoyed ...
Just for the record. I will often take a SMF and 'pare it down' to a trio or quartet, taking out the melody line, or in spots, leave it in to play a counter melody against it...
I guess I am one of those who doesn't stray far from the melody or basic chord changes most of the time, but there is an upside to that as well ... Many audiences, unless they are looking for a good jazz performance, would rather be able to recognize the tune, even during a solo ...

t.



[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 10-30-2008).]

I agree. Give those jobs to bands, DJs and Donny

... and he will take all you can give him and LOVE every one of them ...
t.

You forget that most youngsters getting married get their receptions payed for by people (parents) our age. And that the large part of the wedding party are family members MUCH older than the bride and groom and their friends...

I have done many weddings for youngsters in that age range. You play music that suits ALL generations yourself (classic rock, ballads, some country, folk-rock, whatever) and then you spin some Mary Blige and Kanye West later on (when the old 'uns are getting pooped!).

Everyone goes home happy. Weddings, except for the most spoiled or those paying for their OWN receptions, cater to ALL ages. And you and I won't get hired in the first place if ALL they want is rap and hiphop.

Problem solved...

Sorry for double post, I'm not sure what happen.

Kingfrog, I’ll second that, my daughter hired a band for her wedding about 15 years ago, I was actively working as a musician at that time. (OMB) I had to think about that.

Wanna hear more – her mother agreed. Aaaaah.

John C.

I guess the difference is, I don't book myself and who I am playing with out as a 'wedding band'. My wedding gigs come from the bridal party or someone connected seeing us do our regular act, and booking us to do that...

I always try to let the bride and groom pick a 'first dance', and will try to learn it if not part of the normal repertoire. Learnt a few good songs that way I would never have normally tried.

But, they hire me, they already know what they are getting...