SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5
Topic Options
#245311 - 10/24/08 10:10 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
For both of your 'edification', I HAVE done archiving on my Fantom G7 and my Sonic Cell and believe it or not USB 2.0 really does help. In a BIG way I might add. I know there are limitations within the motherboard and chipset through the Front Side Bus (FSB) on the mainboard and the memory buses on arranger and workstation keyboards but when a manufacturer starts including USB 2.0 on their arrangers and workstations they ALSO take the necessary steps to insure that the USB 2.0 will be a benefit to the User (else why give it USB 2.0 in the first place?). So the "whole system" essentially will have to be upgraded by manufacturers to enable the use of USB 2.0 in an efficient and "effective" manner. Each manufacturer has to decide just how efficiently they want their workstations and arrangers to take advantage of the USB 2.0 standard. If a manufacturer decides to take only a few measures then of course the result would not be as great as a manufacturer who takes ALL necessary steps to ensure the fastest transfer rate possible on their keyboard(s) with USB 2.0. So what I am saying is your mileage may vary depending on how 'advanced' the keyboard's "whole system" is (which are essentially computers inside) and how optimally "tuned" they are for taking advantage of the faster USB spec.

For instance, the Tyros2 has USB 1.1 and it also can load .wav samples. Load time on the Tyros 2 for large .wav files was notoriously "slow" and people complained about: "why have a Sample 'player' and not be able to take advantage of it??" Notice I didn't say Sampl'er' because the Tyros2 doesn't have a "real" Sampler, just a sample 'player'. Same with the Tyros3 for that matter.

Anyway, it would be nice to know what the now USB 2.0 capable Tyros3 load times are compared with the Tyros2' ultra slow times. I have to think there will, no doubt, be much better load times on the Tyros3, and if they're not, then we know who to blame right? In other words, you can't blame the spec itself because USB 2.0 "is what it is" i.e. up to 480Mb/s (60MB/s) of transfer rate speed. You have to blame the manufacturer (in this case Yamaha) if the T3 load times are not dramatically improved over the T2's load times.

So yes.., your mileage will vary depending on how effectively and efficiently each Manufacturer has made the keyboard's computer interface and "whole system" work with the USB 2.0 interface on each system i.e. each keyboard. But I can tell you "firsthand" that Roland has done a reasonable job regarding USB 2.0 on both the Fantom G and Sonic Cell.

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 10-24-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

Top
#245312 - 10/24/08 10:53 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Thanks for the 'edification'

But, as I pointed out, backing up your HD isn't exactly a time critical function. I can wait patiently for the minute or so it might take. Nobody does this in front of an audience, do they?

As to speeding up the transfer of samples, once again, I point out USB1.1's theoretical limit of 1.5MB/sec. And AGAIN, I point out that the T3 (and Korg, for all I know) do not, as of now, manage to load samples up at even the top speed of USB1.

So what, exactly, does it help to have USB2?

Other than to give a sense of technological superiority over just as capable arrangers without it..?

Look, there are MANY advantages of T3's and PA2Xpro's over older arrangers. Guitar modes that work. SA2 voices to die for. Samplers that read popular sample formats (in Korg's case). MP3 players (for those that use them), etc., etc..

Why try to puff up a feature that IN PRACTICE, confers no appreciable advantage? Plenty that DO to crow about

Top
#245313 - 10/26/08 03:45 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
So you're saying the T3 doesn't load large files any faster than the T2 Diki? Who told you that? Did I miss a thread topic or discussion mentioning it? I find it hard to believe that the T3 load times aren't any better than the T2's. If that is indeed true, it is just one more reason for T2 owners to hold on to their existing T2 boards.

OTOH, I have worked extensively with USB 1.1 on computers and of course on my former T1. The T1 was a similar situation to the G70 in that it couldn't load .wav files and subsequently the USB 1.1 on my Tyros was, nevertheless, sufficient for its purpose i.e. for the loading of Styles and Midi.

Having worked with USB 1.1 on an Arranger I can fully attest to the superiority of USB 2.0 on my Fantom G7 and Sonic Cell. No matter how you perceive USB 1.1 to be e.g. sufficient enough for my 4 year old keyboard , etc., the fact remains that USB 1.1 is an obsolete USB specification Diki. It may work okay for you on the G70 as it did for me on my former Tyros but when you start getting into the archiving, loading, and exporting of large .wav, .aiff, files if you don't currently have a USB 2.0 capable arranger/workstation you, no doubt, would have wished you did.

Michael has never responded to any of our subsequent posts regarding this topic and I'm wondering if he realized when Nigel yanked his topic from the other forum and posted it in the general arranger forum that Michael even knew where to find it. So perhaps all of our discussion on this topic has not reached its intended target. Hopefully those who have read through it will, nonetheless, find some benefit from it.

YO FRAN!! You knew I was kidding regarding the G70 and your ability to be technicially minded right? Putting USB 2.0 on the G70 would require some hardware upgrades and Roland, needless to say, wouldn't sell you the necessary parts anyway. So in reality, if you want USB 2.0 on an arranger or workstation you'll have to use your Mediastation (if you still have it that is.. ) or buy something new on the market that already incorporates it on the Keyboard itself. But please do NOT continue to delude yourself into thinking your 4 year old G70 has USB 2.0, okay?

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of Roland's new Arranger Flagship that WILL, of course, HAVE USB 2.0 amongst several other very exciting, cutting edge features too. But whether it has 76 keys though is anybodies guess, seeing how Roland didn't sell a boat load of the 76 key G70. I don't think Roland sold many of the 61 key E-80's either for that matter. [img]http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sad/sad-005.gif[/img]

What needs to be accomplished, in my opinion, is for Roland to come through with a 'brand new' and 'extraordinary' preset patch set to better compete with the likes of the Korg Pa2XPRO and Yamaha Tyros3 as well as the upcoming Audya. For it also to have 76 keys - with an extraordinary keybed even better than the G70's keybed. Have a real Sampler, ARX card expandability, and weigh in under 40 lbs. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] Do all that plus have all the other cutting edge features like USB 2.0, an outstanding Sequencer, 500 ALL NEW Styles, and bring back the Chord Sequencer and everybody will be happy, including Diki. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Roland will no doubt have an absolute winner on its hands and WILL, needless to say, sell a verifiable BOAT LOAD of them, and will make up for all the years of lackluster G70 and E80 sales to boot. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Whether or not Roland has followed any of my suggestions or timely advice has yet to be seen though. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/rolleyes.gif[/img] It doesn't hurt to dream I guess though, right? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Best,
Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

Top
#245314 - 10/26/08 04:47 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Still waiting for someone to post the times difference of sample loading between T2 and T3. And I would still be surprised if it exceeds 1.5MB/sec.

It may indeed be faster from the T2 to the T3 at sample loading times. But there are a large variety of factors in what is REALLY making the difference. Data bus speeds... clock speeds of CPU's, larger RAM pipe specs, and finally, yes, the interface speed.

But, unless the T3 can load up samples at faster than 1.5MB/sec, the HD interface isn't the primary source of the improvement. What's the point of an interface that can deliver 60MB/sec, if the device can't take it any faster than 1.5MB/sec? (or more likely .75MB/sec - that would still be a three times improvement to the T2 )

Archiving to computer is an altogether different situation, because you are talking to a piece of gear that has no problem moving data around at those speeds. But the imbedded systems in hardware keyboards are NOT computers. No current sampler in a hardware keyboard (MotifXS, M3, FantomG, T3, PA2Xproetc.) can move samples around at anywhere NEAR the speed of USB2, and I still haven't seen any evidence that they have broke the 1.5MB/sec mark yet.

Personally, I can't WAIT for reliable imbedded arrangers to get computer data transfer speeds. Loading loops up for every song would be a practical thing, especially if the data transfer could be in the background (rather than grinding the machine to a halt as they currently do...

But for practical, song to song use, they are all to damn slow, right now. I'd rather use a laptop and Kontakt than put up with the slow load times of current hardware if I were using them live.

USB2 or not, it STILL not fast enough.

(And before the MS fanboys chime in, I'm talking about arrangers that sound great when you buy them, not after you've built, designed, installed, troubleshot, created styles, voiced all the keyboard sounds, and THEN got it to sound good!)

Top
#245315 - 10/26/08 05:12 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Diki,
Just to clarify another of your "broad brush" comments.

I am not yet ANY sort of a "fanboy" for the MS!

Sheesh, I haven't even touched one yet.

What I have been espousing, is the system and concept, NOT necessarily a Media Station per se.

I just wanted to clear that up!!

The streaming performance of the MS, is probably one of the first things I will benchmark. All my VST work has been with windows, and nothing with Linux or AMD so it will be interesting. Especially as far as I know, the AMD processors do not use floating point, so it will be also interesting to compare performance with the Intel processors that do.

But just quietly, (LOL if such a thing is possible on a forum) I am seriously considering ditching the PC altogether and heading to one of those nice G5's...mmm nice machine.

After all I did start on an Atari ST and Steinberg 12, and the Ataris were very "Apple" like.

I think I have mentioned before that I am NOT buying the MS as a style machine primarily, although if I can get it to do that job well, it will be nice, and add some extra fun.

Dennis


[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-26-2008).]

Top
#245316 - 10/26/08 06:33 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I completely agree (there... it happens!).

The IDEA of the MS is absolutely wonderful. I have been waiting for years for this exact kind of product... BUT... it's execution as an arranger is just too much 'roll your own' for me. Sure, I love to try new things, edit styles, even create a bit. But I like a library of already well executed stuff as an inspiration, a source of 'pieces parts' to assemble new styles out of (probably what more people that CLAIM they make their own styles actually do), a sound set already at the top of it's game, with only areas of my personal interest to fill in.

From all the factory demos, I have to sadly conclude that it would take me a considerable amount of time, skill, and money just to get it to equal what I already have. And THEN I would have to work even harder to get it to surpass it!

So, while I LOVE the idea of the MS, so far I have to pass, because theory and practice don't coincide. I am a ONE keyboard live player (live, and in the studio, I already have enough VSTi's), so that one has to be better than what I have before it becomes a necessity. The MS is better in some areas than my G70. But in many, practical areas, it lags way behind. So, I wait, and wait, and wait

Sooner or later, somebody will make an MS-type product that starts out as a great TOTL arranger. And I can take it to the next level at my own pace.

I can wait...

Top
#245317 - 10/26/08 07:28 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Yes I agree.
I certainly hear what you are saying..Its a bit different for me, but I do understand and to a large extent agree with your thoughts.

Dennis

Top
#245318 - 10/26/08 08:19 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Well, I hope Michael IS still reading, and this discussion (sans pissing wars) is helping him.

My suggestion is...... a G-70 (!)

Now I'll tell you why.

Yes on principal I'm loathe to agree with Fran about the G-70 (purely because he believes it is a keyboard capable of achieving everything from curing the problem of world hunger to winning the impending U.S. election)

BUT

it IS a machine that I think would help Michael bearing in mind he is (I assume) an old school player who wants to use Swing/Jazz/Latin Arranger styles in a user friendly manner. With makeup tools and an easy to use O.S. I think it would suit him - 76 keys is a necessity (IMO) in this situation too.

As for the Korg, I think it is a deeper machine (read : takes more time to fully take advantage of it's power AND is very much a programmers machine - a la a workstation) and I believe Michael just wants something that sounds good OOTB and is easy to use - again OOTB.

(Korg users please don't get me wrong, if you all remember, I currently use a PA1x Pro-Elite (with expanded memory and MP3 option) and for what I use it for (ALL genres from 40's to Top-40, MP3 playback and user sampling) it suits me fine - MORE than fine.

Piano wise, I've got some absolutely knockout Pianos (I have about 4 "go-to" sounds) that were available for free on Korg related websites, and I've tweaked the factory piano sounds.
So samples & sampling have been VERY useful to me for many reasons, but I believe for Michael's purposes, it's not necessary.
_________________________
God I hate signatures.

BUT...

www.chi-chi.com.au

Top
#245319 - 10/26/08 09:19 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I've got a lot of respect for the PA2Xpro, it has a great sound, a superb Guitar Mode, loads Akai disks into the sampler, allows full voice editing, an all around pro piece of work.

BUT... there's just one thing I can't get past. Only two fills and a break fill for a four variation style. Simply not enough, IMO, and virtually 80's era feature-wise. Yamaha have six and a break/fill, Roland's have seven and a break/mute, and it honestly helps the transitions be smoother and more natural. Heck, even the GW-8 has four fills

And it's only $895!

I can't understand how Korg can be SO good at updating the OS, and STILL haven't got around to this PRIMARY need.

Now, I know all the Korg owners are about to jump in and go 'but it works fine for me!' which is probably true. We ALL had to use two fill arrangers ten years ago or more! And we got by...

But seven fills is SO much better...

Make some noise. It's probably the ONE last area that other arrangers truly beat out this great arranger... Surely Korg is listening to you?

Top
Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5

Moderator:  Admin 



Help keep Synth Zone Online