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#245301 - 10/19/08 07:57 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Hey Mike..I never reccommended the G70 to Michael..I never even responded to him..only responded to your wrong info...
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#245302 - 10/20/08 11:56 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Good grief, Mike! What are YOU smoking?

There's no need for USB 2 for anything other than jacking samples around. A couple of hundred kb for a BIG style transfers into the G70 faster than you can hit a button. The RAM disk and PCMCIA card slot work instantly, no HD seek times to slow things down (USB2 doesn't make those seek times ANY faster...).

Backup is offline, and so what if it takes 30 seconds instead of 10? Do you back up your HD at the gig?

Unless you have a sampler, if the arranger is designed right in the first place, there's no need for more complicated transfer protocols. USB1 is completely backwards compatible with USB2.

And, in truth, even USB1 completely outperforms any hardware arranger at even loading samples. The bottleneck is at the RAM pipe, USB1 is STILL way faster than the Korg and T2 load up samples.

You have to be less dependent on 'buzzword technology', and realize when you are getting into overkill. If the arranger works completely glitch free during data transfer with USB1, what's the point of USB2?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-20-2008).]

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#245303 - 10/20/08 01:12 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
Originally posted by Diki:
Quote:
if the arranger works completely glitch free during data transfer with USB1, what's the point of USB2?


The point is: "faster data transfer" vs. USB 1.1 Diki. I'll take glitch free USB 2.0 data transfer any day of the week over glitch free USB 1.1.

USB 1.1 tops out at 1.5MB/sec transfer rate whereas USB 2.0 tops out at 60MB/sec - i.e. 12Mb/sec USB 1.1 vs. 480 Mb/sec. USB 2.0

>> When you get your hands on an Arranger or Workstation that has USB 2.0 and start working with it you'll be thankful you have it. It's almost the same scenario as Dial-up vs. Broadband. Once you "taste" it you'll never know how you ever did without it.

Hey, I'm not really dissing the G70 you guys. I know it's your two's pride and joy and I'm happy for you. I am just pointing out some slight "drawbacks" of the G70, that's all. Roland's new Fantom G workstation OTOH, which I own, DOES have USB 2.0, as well as my Roland Sonic Cell. When Fran is telling Michael "mis-information" I felt I needed to correct him on it, even though he is apparently still trying to stick to his 'empty' revolvers. What am I going to do with you Fran...

Maybe he modified (read: jury rigged) his G70 and put in a USB 2.0 interface I dunno. I doubt that would be possible though, especially for Fran. Oops! Sorry Fran... But to go on and believe a lie doesn't do him or Michael any good. I'm not necessarily doing it for Fran's sake either as much as it is for Michael's sake. I didn't want him buying a G70 and later finding out that Fran gave him some "mis-information" and his G70 really "doesn't" have USB 2.0, which it DOESN'T. I repeat: DOES NOT have USB 2.0. Okay?? So in that respect the G70 is, shall I say, slightly "behind the times"? Instead of "obsolete" if it makes you feel better.

Best,
Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#245304 - 10/20/08 01:28 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Mike, you are still missing the point...

What's the speed of transferring a 40kb file under USB1? (that's all most styles are). At 1.5MB/sec?

Yep, a tiny fraction of one second... How much faster will it be at USB2? Who cares. 1/100th of a second is fast enough!

Just do me ONE favor... explain any use of your arranger that needs data transfer at faster than a tiny fraction of one second...

Then start bitching at Yamaha to put eSATA interfaces on their arrangers (faster MUST be better, no? ) and stand back as they laugh their heads off at you!

Just like me...

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#245305 - 10/20/08 02:48 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
mc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 866
Loc: New York
If you use a lot of bossa, you may want to look at the Ketron SD5 Hd, so you can also get the MS 50/100 styles, there bossa's were nice also.
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Ketron X1 (Oldie but Goodie)

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#245306 - 10/21/08 09:15 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Just do me ONE favor... explain any use of your arranger that needs data transfer at faster than a tiny fraction of one second...



Your point is well taken when concerning the G70 Diki. Since the G70 doesn't have a Sampler and can't load anything other than .mid, .sty, and .txt, USB 1.1 is suitable no doubt for the G70.

But Michael, OTOH, wanted a solution where he would have workstation features either integrated into the arranger or a separate solution of two keyboards. He obviously would be paying much more money for a two keyboard solution therefore I was encouraging him to go for the one keyboard integrated solution. An integrated solution such as the Korg Pa2xPRO has USB 2.0 and a Sampler and, of course, can import .wav, .aiff, and akai if I'm not mistaken. Therefore USB 2.0 would be an "essential" and necessary component because the loading of large .wav files for example.

I think all totl arrangers, from this point on, will incorporate USB 2.0 into them and therefore I was also encouraging Michael to get something technologically current. Also, the G70 is no longer being supported by Roland in the way of OS updates correct? Soon they will be releasing their next totl arranger as well, and it absolutely WILL have USB 2.0 and also either a full fledged Sampler, in my opinion, or at the very least a Sample 'player'. Whether it has 76 keys though is anyone's guess.

But you are right Diki as far as the G70's lack of USB 2.0 in that you can't load anything large enough for the G-70's USB 1.1 to be a hinderance per se. But then again it's lack of a Sampler would further exclude it as an "all-in-one" solution, and that's the reason I was basically steering Michael away from it. But like I said in my previous post he may want to consider it in a "two" keyboard solution as a separate arranger for its low price (used) and nice keybed action.

OTOH, why would he really.. when the Korg PA2XPRO is an "integrated" solution, has 76 keys, has USB 2.0, has a Sampler, has a great action keybed, and is priced lower than, for instance, the new Yamaha 61 key Tyros3? Oh, and it weighs less than the G-70 too.

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 10-21-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#245307 - 10/21/08 10:11 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Well, first of mall, I looked at the initial post, saw the words 'old school bebop player' and don't see any particular requirement for a sampler...

One of the strengths of the G70 is that a lot of the sounds, particularly the piano, is so good on-board, there's no need to complicate things and slow them down with a sampler. For bossa, and bebop, the G70's OOTB sound is already just about perfect. Great drums, decent percussion, great upright, great piano, great sax (but no SA - it's still one of the best, even without it). Why complicate things, or add the expense of a sampler and it's library?

My advice to the original poster would remain to just try the G70. You may not need a WS or second keyboard at all... Why complicate the task if you don't have to...?

Finally, to return to the USB thing... I'm sorry, but USB1 already outperforms the RAM pipe in hardware samplers. 1.5MB/sec is WAY faster than any contemporary arranger sampler loads up at. The T2 worked out to about .25MB/sec (four times slower than my K2500!) and I heard the Korg's were about the same. Throwing the data at the bottleneck of the RAM pipe faster doesn't shove it through the hole in any less time!

There's theoretical speed, then there's reality...

The reality is, USB2 confers NO advantage to an arranger, at the moment. But a freakin' big FlashRAM drive would! Even a USB1 FlashRAM drive (like my G70) outperforms the USB2 HD's in other arrangers because there is negligible seek times (the thing that REALLY slows down file transfer).

Many Yamaha users remark about the time it takes to pull a style off the HD (Korg is probably the same). On a Roland, this is instantaneous.

Advantage, USB1, I would say!

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#245308 - 10/21/08 06:17 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Maybe he modified (read: jury rigged) his G70 and put in a USB 2.0 interface I dunno. I doubt that would be possible though, especially for Fran. Oops! Sorry Fran... But to go on and believe a lie doesn't do him or Michael any good. I'm not necessarily doing it for Fran's sake either as much as it is for Michael's sake. I didn't want him buying a G70 and later finding out that Fran gave him some "mis-information" and his G70 really "doesn't" have USB 2.0, which it DOESN'T. I repeat: DOES NOT have USB 2.0. Okay?? So in that respect the G70 is, shall I say, slightly "behind the times"? Instead of "obsolete" if it makes you feel better.

Best,
Mike


First off Mike, I have not found any facts stating the G70 is USB1.1..or 2.0...If you can direct me to this fact, please advise me..

Also the only Roland products that I found stating they "support " 2.0 are products that are USB/audio or sampling transfer equipment..

The other product lines just mention USB without the speed declaration..

Being that Roland does use USB 2.0, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't use it across the product line..We are not talking any significant cost...

I see you are in "computer related" avocation..can you explain what that really means...in case I am barbing with a "true expert"..

As for misleading anyone ..not happening, I did not recommend the G70 to the fella..just questioning your account..and yes you were wrong about USB/midi...

Please no more sparring comments, I am not as patient and tolerable as I use to be..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245309 - 10/21/08 07:56 PM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9348
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I just completed a test..that may shed some light on the USB connection of the G70...

I transferred data from the external Compact Flash card on the G70 via USB cable to my PC..

I also transferred the same data from the same Compact flash card via the built in card reader of my PC...


The results...the transfer from the G70 to the PC was 13 times faster than the transfer from the card reader to the PC..


Any thoughts?

Sure sounds like the G70 has a 2.0 USB...but if not..who cares...it surly is fast enough..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#245310 - 10/22/08 12:57 AM Re: Korg vs Yamaha also Korg vs Roland in buying
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
No, Fran, the G70 is strictly USB1. But, as you noticed, it's as fast as you need...

I am always amused by the 'spec wars' types, that if they see something more advanced technologically, assume that MUST translate into better performance. Unfortunately, reality rears it's ugly head

1.5MB/sec is pretty damn fast, unless you are trying to load all 50MB of the FlashRAM drive... but the only time you do that is offline, at home, when backing up your data (which is only 20-30MB of that 50MB, anyway). I can wait for 30 seconds to do an entire archive backup. Somehow, my day just isn't THAT busy!

As I said, it must burn Mike's ass to not have eSATA on his arranger... I mean, if 1/100th of a second is fast, an arranger that can load a style in 1/1000th MUST be better!

USB2 is SO last year's technology!

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