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#241756 - 09/06/08 12:18 AM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Can an S900 do this?

What about codes for triggering the different variations and fills..? Can you do that too?

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#241757 - 09/06/08 02:14 AM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
drdalet Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 187
Loc: Amersfoort, Netherlands
The need for 76-keys is mentioned every time a new arranger is released, but it is not clear why you would want that.
First of all: if you bought an arranger to play piano or organ, you bought the wrong instrument. If you love the Yamaha sound like I do, then you buy a Motif. If you want an orchestra at your fingertips, then you buy an arranger.

I must admit that I sometimes run out of keys on my PSR3000 - mostly this happens around the splitpoint for left and right side of the keyboard. You have about 1.5 octaves for the chords, so there remains 3.5 octaves for melody - 3.5 to 4 octaves is the limit for most wind- and brass instruments anyway.
Even the 1.5 octave for the chords are sometimes not sufficient and - depends what key I am playing in - I have to find other ways to play certain chords if I run out of keys. And then you are left with 3.5 octaves to play around with. True, if you use organ and piano voices it is just not enough, but for most voices it is enough - for some voices it is even too many.

So why not hook up a 76-key controller to your arranger? Maybe Yamaha should give demos where the demonstrators just do that.

What would the advantage be with 76 keys?
Well, with 61 keys I have to search for other ways to play a chord, or I should shift the splitnotes, but then I run out of low notes for my melodies and or improvs. Espescially organs, accordions, pianos and other voices like that, 3.5 octaves is not much. So for those voices you might want an extra octave.
It is not even necessary to go from C to C, on the left side you could start with a F or G and you could end on the right with a F or G as well.


[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 09-06-2008).]
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#241758 - 09/06/08 07:22 AM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4904
Loc: English Riviera, UK
If you use chord inversions you can play most of the chords within 1 octave.
There is no reason to fix your split point even in a song, just store it in the preset(s) that you use for the song. (Split points can be put on any key and stored in the preset)
An arranger is designed to cover all types of music, including Piano and Organ.
Just because one person finds 61 notes sufficient, another person may not. (And vice versa)
Here are the ranges of instruments. http://www.4shared.com/file/61948604/2539e70a/Instrument_Range.html

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#241759 - 09/06/08 08:02 AM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
Quote:
Originally posted by drdalet:
The need for 76-keys is mentioned every time a new arranger is released, but it is not clear why you would want that.
First of all: if you bought an arranger to play piano or organ, you bought the wrong instrument. If you love the Yamaha sound like I do, then you buy a Motif. If you want an orchestra at your fingertips, then you buy an arranger.


76 keys is a compromise that I agree with you. But as you stated yourself you have run out of keys on your 61 noter, and probably more times than wish to remember. But for Yamaha to make a 'portable' 88 key "totl" arranger, would be something that is most likely years (if not light years) away. 76 keys is a compromise, granted, yet in my opinon a "good" compromise. There would be only occasional and very rare instances where you would actually need those 12 extra keys for a song, etc., that an 88 noter brings to the table. Now, when you turn that figure around, you now have 95% or more of the songs that you play that a 76 key will do just fine for. Yes, they are semi-weighted keys and that is a compromise too. But just getting a 76 "semi-weighted" totl arranger out of Yamaha is like pulling teeth or actually "much" worse than pulling teeth , so semi-weighted is the next best thing and the only thing we COULD hope for from Yamaha I dare say. FWIW, Kurzweil has made a new name for itself by making fully weighted keys on a few of their 76 key workstations/stage pianos.

Truthfully, if Yamaha attempted an 88 key totl arranger that weighed around what the T2 weighs (or even a few lbs. more) my preference would be to buy the 88 key totl arranger from Yamaha. But since that will most likely never happen for eons to come, if ever - 76 keys is a good starting point.


Quote:
Originally posted by drdalet:
So why not hook up a 76-key controller to your arranger? Maybe Yamaha should give demos where the demonstrators just do that.


The idea is to have ONE piece of equipment to lug around NOT two..

Quote:
Originally posted by drdalet:
What would the advantage be with 76 keys?
not much.


I suppose it's a case of the individual seeing the glass as being half-empty or whether one perceives it to be "three quarters" full. My opinions of course, but there are 50% of arranger players out in keyboard land that feel similar to the way I do.

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-06-2008).]
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#241760 - 09/06/08 08:53 AM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9196
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally posted by drdalet:
What would the advantage be with 76 keys?
not much.

I think 76 keys is ideal...
88 keys..I have some keys I never ..ever..play..as with most folks...maybe glissando's...

76 is perfect...low E handles the lowest note on the bass (for playing left hand bass)..and enough range for splits (even multi splits)..

As for buying an arranger to play piano....Why not?

As previously mentioned..we want one board to cover all the bases..

In fact there are some 76 key arrangers with pianos that are as good as can be found on any workstation...
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#241761 - 09/06/08 10:34 AM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
An astounding question...

Why would you want to buy several different keyboards to do several different things, if ONE keyboard could do it all?

Oh, that's right... YOU'VE got money to throw away!

You see, there are SOME people who like to use their arrangers for more than simple LH chords, RH melody. I know, you may find this hard to believe, but it's true! For instance, on just about every arranger out there, there is an SMF player. Now, why on earth would that be there, if you were only supposed to play in arranger mode, LH chords, RH solo melody?

And, once you use SMF's, well, look! Your left hand just got freed up! Maybe now you might consider playing a real piano part, or Rhodes. You know, those pesky keyboards with more than 61 notes (damn them!). Hold on a second... you CAN play a real piano part? Well, what about that Piano Mode on your arranger, the one that lets you play just like a pianist, and it STILL follows your input well...? Not much point in that if you haven't got a keyboard big enough to play a real piano part on in the first place!

What about the few of us that occasionally (or more than occasionally!) like to play with REAL musicians? You know, you might like to play a piano part with those guys... What's that you say? I ought to go and buy another instrument altogether for those occasions? Should I also buy a B3 and a clavinet and an Oberheim and a stack of keyboards ten feet tall for that as well?

Modern TOTL arrangers have ALL the sounds you could ever want, to cover every kind of musical need you could ever want (short of a techno/trance hardcore gig) from playing simple LH chords, RH melody, all the way up to first call studio work and everything in between. BUT.... if it is tied to a keyboard that severely restricts what and HOW you play by providing insufficient notes to play full piano and E. Piano parts, and restricting the available range for splits, it is arbitrarily limiting you for no other reason that saving costs with a cheap, short keyboard.

The thing you have to do is look past your own, extremely limited requirements, and understand that there are many, many players who appreciate the advantages of an arranger, but would like to be able to play other styles, other modes AS WELL. And we SURE don't feel like having to go out and buy multiple keyboards, when a 76 on the one we already HAVE would do the job just as good, if not better than a WS....

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#241762 - 09/06/08 10:59 AM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40706
Great post Diki......no problem you just cant do it with a Yamaha arranger....

Roland, Korg, Ketron, MS is the way to go for the 76'er affectionado

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#241763 - 09/07/08 02:55 PM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Back to the question at the top of this page...

Can the S900 do the 'one channel MIDI input, treat as if it were the built-in keyboard' trick?

That's a seriously handy feature. ALL arrangers should have it, even the low and mid-line ones, IMO...

Combine that with customizable codes for triggering variations and fills (because there is NO cross-manufacturer standard, yet) and you have a pretty easy to set up two arranger ber-arranger

My G70, plus the S900's Mega guitars and SA voices = possibly the best arranger in the world! (OK, T3 if I had the budget!)

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#241764 - 09/07/08 03:01 PM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
jwyvern Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 365
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Can an S900 do this?

What about codes for triggering the different variations and fills..? Can you do that too?


Diki:
Looking at the manual the editable midi templates on the S900 are almost identical to Ty2 meaning a controller keyboard can be set up to work- even if not immediately by default as you can on Ty2 (I'm not sure, S900 does not have a 2nd (midiB) port) then by selection and/or editing.

With regard to what can further be done via midi:
If I drive my Ty2 in Keyboard mode with a single "pair of hands" midi track I can try out different style and voice arrangements, tempos, pitch bend etc. etc. as "it" plays the song.
If I record the sysex as I change style variations/fills/endings then feed it back in the next time at playback, whatever style is loaded on the keyboard responds. You sometimes get unexpected effects using sysex so debugging (of the setup used, not the keyboard!)would be necessary to get it reliable but it shows feasibility.

John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 09-08-2008).]

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#241765 - 09/07/08 07:15 PM Re: What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 5225
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Steve,
I'd luv to add a module to my CLP170.

Didn't want to take the risk of buying a CVP as digital piano's are pretty difficult to resell over here in Aust. and most dealers don't want trade ins.

And since keyboards keep improving with each new model, I would have grown dissatisfied with the old model.

Anyway, just a thought.
Quote:
Originally posted by YamahaUS1:
Rikki,

Thanks for the input.

Steve
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best wishes
Rikki

SX900, P121 Piano, PA800, Band in a Box 2019
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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