I would like some education on pitch correction capabilities in vocal processors.
I am not such a good singer and I would like some input as to how to use pitch correction or vocoder to keep me on key.

What has been your experience?

I know it won't make me Andy Williams, but ow much will it help, which ones are best and any suggestions on how to best use them?

If it will really help me I would be willing to buy a high end unit like TC Helicon Voiceworks Plus.

Thanks,
Lee

This may help.
http://www.tc-helicon.tc/Default.asp?Id=2336

I have not used pitch correction, and I have a question - Pitch correction only works 'after the fact', no? ... as when you are trying to correct the pitch of a note on a recording. I sometimes get the impression that some people might be looking for pitch correction in 'real time' and I don't understand how that would work.
thnx,
t.

Tony and Lee..pitch correction does work in real time..I would say the higher quality units will work better..

Vocoder mode is the easiest way to achieve what you are after..

It would depend how accurate you play the keys [on key]...and the timing of your voice to what you play[although it is easier to play to your own singing]..

You can also rely on lead tracks if you are using SMF's...This also depends on accurate timing of your vocals...

Unlike other folks comments ..I think it can improve your vocals...and also train you to sing on key...

Matter of fact a harmonizer can make a great singer terrible just as easily as a poor singer....Misuse of a harmonizer can kill a great vocalist too..

In my experience, if you can't sing on key, pitch correction will make it much worse - not better. Pitch correction is for someone who does sing bascially on key, but wants it to be perfect.

However, if you choose for each song the scale that you'll be singing in - ie you knock out 5 of the 12 notes in an octave - you may have more success.

The principle is that pitch correction corrects you to the closest note. If you are closer to the wrong note than the right one (it happens even for people who think they CAN sing on key), it will pitch correct you the wrong one.

Chony

Common people either you can sing or you can't there is no magic bullet! lets stop trying to sugar coat it....play & sing a song....record it.......let your friends listen to it & ask for an honest opinion from 3 or 4 different people. Then listen to it yourself & you'll decide if you should pursue singing as a possible addition to your music or should you get a singer to perform with you.

For most automatic pitch correction (the kind you would use in real time) you have to set the key, the scale type and the amount of correction. It won't correct you from a Ab to a C but it might correct a half step. The problem is if your off more than that it may correct you to a G instead of a C. It corrects it to the nearest note in scale, which may not be the right one.
I just got my hands on a digitech live 4 www.digitech.com/products/Vocalist_Live4/ and it has pitch correction.
download the manual and read about pitch correction.




[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 05-30-2008).]

Don, I don't play out so I won't be hiring a singer...I play for my own fun and for friends some.

Fran, I see what you are saying...my hope is that it may help me to learn to sing better. I'm not expecting miracles.

Chony, what kind of pitch correction equipment do you use, or have tested?

Come on guys I get close to the note most of the time... I realize if your off tons it will go to the wrong note.

There got to be many more of you out there that use/have used or have at least tried these things? Especially the high end ones!
They must work for some applications as it seems like they sell a lot of them.

Does anyone think it can help a singer to LEARN to sing better..more on key?

Thanks for the input....
Lee

Many people find it disconcerting to hear their voice singing a different pitch than they're actually singing. I'm not talking about harmony, I'm talking about the exact note you are singing, only in tune. This is why people who use live autotune usually use it for the front house mix only, and have no autotune in their monitor. From what I've heard it is even harder to sing in tune if you aren't hearing what your voice is doing. If you are hearing the pitch corrected signal rather than the actual pitch your voice is producing, it is harder to tell what your voice is in fact doing.

FAEbGBD,
Thanks for the input...I can see what you mean. It could be a little wierd.

However, If I could just sing something close and come out sounding as well as Any Williams, Johny Mathis etc.... I think I would like that! HaHaHa...:-)

I did play a little with pitch correction on the PA1XPRO I once had, but didn't really take it too seriously!
Lee

Pitch correction is used mostly as a post production tool.
The best way to learn to sing better is to sing! Learn to play the melody and sing along with that. Learn different styles, emulate different artists soon you will develope your own style.
So many things make a good vocal, even if you sing on pitch if you don't have a pleasing voice people still won't like it.
We have all heard singers that technically sing right on pitch yet there is still something about their voice that doesn't sound right.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VoiceWorkPls

For performances, if you can sing basically on key, I wouldn't use it. If people notice you are going off, I wouldn't use it either. I think its best used for recording.

So for the guy who constantly sings a little flat it wouldn't be a good tool?

exactly Cass.....

if you want to be a good singer...its gotta be in you.....and even then its MUCHO practice....plus interacting simultaneously while your playing an arranger is a whole nother LEVEL to get it right....it takes a lifetime of dedication & constant practice if you have the foundation to start building your talents. There is no easy way ....but if YOUR the ONLY one who will listen at home then its a totally different story...but what I say above still applies to even make it a decent sounding performance...I cant stress enough to find your comfort zone for your voice and correct vocal KEY RANGE low & high for EACH song.

Good Luck & save you money on a pitch correction gadget

C'mon guys give us not so good singers a break...just kidding. I know there is no magic bullet. I was just hoping the TC Helicon Voice Works Plus might help me sound a little better and be some fun to experiment with... who knows, maybe it would inspire me to practice more or get some PRO voice lessons!

Lee

You'll definitely have fun with it!

Leeboy, a harmonizer is definitely a good add-on if you want to experiment with vocals. With all this talk about off-key singers, it's still a lot of fun to hear harmonies when you sing. I bet you're not as bad as you say. If you would like to hear what harmonizer vocals sound like, chek out "Lyin Eyes" "Crazy Love" or "The Weight" on the Demos page of my website. That is the Roland G70 harmonizer, but I now use a Digitech Vocalist VR.

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Cass

Cass do you prefer the VR over the Roland G70 VH?

No harm intended just trying to be honest...Singing Vocal harmony while playing an arranger keyboard is a whole art-form in itself. Its just another added dimension that as a player You HAVE TO Really "MASTER" or it will sound terrible, since it all corresponds & is activated with your playing you have to be that much better doing BOTH at ONCE. Try to find people in your area who use it WELL, watch them, absorb, and maybe you can pick up some tips to help you along in your own VH venture. Its NOT easy, & it is possible to achieve greatness if you go about it correctly.

Good Luck



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-30-2008).]

Have fun with it, Lee...at the very worst, you could wind up sounding like Neil Young...and he's made a career(and lots of money) out of singing off pitch.

Ian

Cass, Thanks for the encouragement... it depends on the day... sinus problems sometimes!

Don,
I understand. Actually if I just admit it to myself... I need to play more and quit dinking with the technology as much.. But I enjoy it! Also, I really do think I could improve my singing if I just put out the effort and practice a lot...I'll never be Any Williams, but maybe to be able to do a few songs fairly well.

I do have fun with the Vocal Processor on the PA2 and T2. The PA2 is better quality (TC Halicon) but does not have pitch correction.

Sometimes I sound pretty good...just doesn't last long :-)

Lee

How about, instead of technology, a good vocal coach?

Get professional help, and bad habits get pointed out and squashed far faster than going your own way. Good breathing, good posture, good habits for stamina... a good vocal coach will teach you all this in a fraction of the time it would take to pick it up yourself (if you EVER did).

We are never too old to learn, aren't we...?

Lee talk to SCOTT YEE he has been professionally trained by some very good Vocal Coaches.Read his Bio
http://scottyee.com/

scottyee@scottyee.com



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-30-2008).]

Interesting topic and something I've recently gotten interested in again i.e. a professional vocal harmonizer. I don't need it for pitch correction per se, but if it came with that feature I wouldn't necessarily shy away from it and not get it, but my main objective in getting any PRO VH would be in the harmony aspect of it. I would like to take my solo voice and make a few duplications of it, changing it from a solo vocal into a harmonious blending four piece choir or barbershop quartet et cetera.

VH's are getting better as the technology and science at achieving realistic vocal harmonies advances and there are new products on the market today that look very intriguing. TC-Helicon seems to be at the forefront of VH technology, and along with their current product offerings, are probably without serious contention from its rivals, such as Digitech, etc.

So a sufficiently competent VH is most likely going to be my next serious purchase consideration. Deciding which one to get will require further research on my part as I particularly don't want to be too hasty in my decision and wind up getting something that I end up taking back. Decisions, decisions... TC-Helicon is right up there at the top of the list though.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 05-30-2008).]

Mike, don't forget to also check out the Roland VP-550. Loads of fun very versatile. I love mine.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=771

Hit skip, then 'videos'.

Check out Don Lewis, an old clip but still impressive (and easy to duplicate; I know, I've done it, and I'm a lousy singer).

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 05-31-2008).]

I like the G70 VH for its simplicity in programming and pleasing sound. I really haven't used the Digitech enough to make an A/B comparison.

Yeah, I've heard about the VP-550 although I've never heard it in person yet. I was thinking more along the lines of a module as opposed to another keyboard though chas. I want to be able to use a VH with either my Tyros arranger or my brand spanking new "76" key ROLAND FANTOM G7.

I actually purchased a TC-Helicon "Voice Live" a couple years back but found it somewhat awkward to use, especially for live performance purposes; although that's what TCH was specifically touting it for, i.e., for live use. Two years though is a long time in the realm of electronic technology advancements and what's on the market now should be even more realistic and hopefully more user friendly as well. I will have to check with my local GC (Guitar Center), which should hopefully have a few different models in stock, and I got to get on over to TC-Helicon's web site and see what's cooking over there too. And Digitech's web site as well. Are there any other companies that make a pro VH besides TC and Digitech? I'm open to other company products too, if there are any.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 06-01-2008).]

Mike I still have a Tune 1000 Harmony Box...It has no presets, and is a vocoder instrument...No on board effects....but what is does...surpassed my Digitech workstation in quality of sound...harmony and lead vocals are clearer than Digitech..

For my money the Roland DisCover5 and G70 are the best..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 06-01-2008).]

Hey everyone... thanks for all the great input!

I'm not sure if it will help me. I know it would be fun to try.

Also, I attended the Sweetwater Sound Gearfest this last weekend and it was cool. Digitech was there with a semi with all their products and demoed a lot of them.
No keyboards, they were guitar players.

I spent an hour with one of the guys and had him take me through the Vocalist Live 4. I asked hime to demo the pitch correction. He purposely sang off key a little (seemed like a lot to me)and that baby put him right on and his voice sounded just like him without correction... no digital kind of influence. He was a good singer. He sang off key enough that it would have ruined the performance without the processor. I think I can get pretty close to the amount he was off in most of my singing if I work on it.

You could really tell how it was working as a set of headphones had the uncorrected voice (I held one side to my ear) while the front mix (lots of people listening too) sounded great.

Food for thought for me.

The harmonies and modeling were fun too.

So, now, which one is best....Digitech or TC-Helicon. I always related Digitech more to guitar players?? Any comments on that?

Lee

TC Helicon #1
Digitech #2

Digitech also makes The Vocalist Live Pro, it is a rack processor based on the Vocalist Live™ 4 that includes a new MIDI interface that works with keyboards as well as guitars.
I just received a digitech vocalist live 4 pedal. It sounds great, these things really have gone a long way since the vhm5.
I have sent you an email.

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qqqwq@hotmail.com