I read this post with interest. Many argue about what is cheating.

Karaoke is random audience members performing to pre recorded music they select. Without inviting the audience to sing alone, it's not Karaoke. Period. Pre recorded music does not make it so.

Some of the biggest spectacular showroom shows in Vegas can be condered "Karaoke Shows" by that definition just using using pre recorded music or an Arranger and rhythm section providing the sound of 40 pieces. I do not think performers (especially those who earn a living as such) can maintain an elitists point of view with regard to what the public is buying.

Many "musicians" have been put out of work by Karaoke AND SAMPLERS/Arrangers which is pre-recorded music. Theres the resentment. However those who adapted and embrace the latest trends work forever. As long as you are playing notes with your right hand and letting the keyboard arrange chords for you in the left you are NOT considered Karaoke? But you get up and walk into the audience you are?

I know many people who see OMB performers who feel the only difference from them and Karaoke is they don't invite the audience to sing whether or not the leave the keys.....THAT'S Karaoke to them.

One could say synths put many musicians out of work. We all search for that Holy Grail perfect acoustic instrument in our keyboards. WHY not just hire a player instead of allowing someone elses' style arrangement play the part perfectly with a perfect sample?

I know you know the answer to that. I also know those who are elitists in their thinking becasue there was a time where you HAD to suffer through years of Hanon to get work as a professional and now can buy a keyboard today spend 6 months learning chords and theory and actually be paid to entertain is unsettling to many who value their skills and feel the paying public should as well over those who did not put in the work and time.

I suggest there are plenty of those steeped in the classics with extraordinary skills are upset to see the successes of the self taught collecting handsome royalties and paychecks as well while they wait for the phone to ring for a job playing BG music for shoppers in Neiman Marcus.

Anyone who dares perform with anything but live players can be considered a Karaoke act like it by the stated example. A CD is nothing but a recorded sample played back as accompaniment.

No one who posts in an Arranger forum should have anything negative to say about cheating unless you earn your living playing solely a piano with hammers and strings.

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/015754.html

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000869.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/013894.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017456.html

I always thought there were two components to karaoke....the pre-recorded music with the lead vocals removed AND the lyrics being displayed in time as a guide for the amatuer singer.

To me, it's always been a form of entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. It sure has taken a lot of heat and for what, because it was meant to provide a few laughs, a few smiles.

I say this, "If you can sing, really SING, then leave the confines of your man-made keyboard and get out there and play nature's greatest musical instrument, the human voice!"

Get out there and SING!

-mike

I think Donny makes a good point.

chas

BTW, anyone see the video of those Indian babies being bounced off a sheet from 50ft.? I think we should try that with the next SZ'er to raise this issue.......but without the sheet.

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 05-02-2008).]

I don't consider karaoke, utilizing midi backing tracks, or utilizing arranger styles cheating in and of itself.

The only thing I don't like about many of the commercially produced backing tracks is that typically (and often unsuccesfully) attempt to emulate the hit artist's cover version arrangement of the song.

Except for a few obligitory audience dance tunes (where I'll call upon midi/mp3 backing) that demand sounding exactly like the recording (right down to the bass line & expected instr riffs), I prefer playing & singing in arranger mode as it offers the creative freedom to improvise & add a fresh interpretation & twist to my music, yet still allows me the option to preserve the overall feel (groove) of the original song if desired.

Karaoke parties can be fun amateur entertainment, but for pro level musical performance demands, I feel arranger mode playing offers far more creative flexibility to make our music & songs stand out as our own.

The only kind of music performance cheating I detest is "audience deception" ei: tricking the audience into thinking you're playing the keys when you're merely pretending to play them (with the keys muted), and the piano/keyboard solo supplied by the backing track (MP3/Midi) instead. I feel the same way about lip syncing singers.

Scott

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/indian-baby-tossing-ritual/1763784626

What? you mean WWF Wrestling is fake also?

If you walk away from your keyboard whilst IT IS PLAYING...meaning you aren't playing it at all...and you are singing over the SMF that is playing...THAT smacks of Karaoke to me.

You are still singing over pre-recorded backing tracks...isn't that what Karaoke performers do?

What makes it different?

I fail to see that having an opinion that this is Karaoke makes a person an elitist...I think it makes them a realist.

I don't have anything against an entertainer performing this way...not at all...several SZ'ers can do this very well, and, maybe they don't do for their whole performance...but I think it should be recognized for what it is....THAT'S ALL!

Ian

First of all... Welcome to Groundhog Day - again!

Secondly, I might point out that at those Vegas shows, you don't see someone PRETENDING to play a keyboard. The backing is flown in for the singers and dancers, and when they do BOTH, the singing is often flown in - you don't think you can run around like a madman and sing accurately at the same time? But even THAT is frowned upon even in Vegas when it is a 'headliner' doing the lip-syncing.

Use an arranger for this purpose, while you sing OR dance for your audience, chicken hat or not, and there is no 'cheating'. Your audience can see what they are getting.

It is when the majority of what they are hearing LOOKS like you are playing it, but you are not. That's dishonest.. IMO. OF COURSE they know the bass and drums are tracks... there's no drummer, and no bassist. But if the large majority of what they are hearing is tracks, and you are just playing a solo (if that!), you at least ought to be upfront with them. Or at least accept your 'karaoke' tag with grace..

There's nothing wrong with karaoke at all... as long as you admit you are doing it (even if only to yourself!). Traditional karaoke needs NO admission, because it is one singer, in front of a TV screen, with no instruments anywhere. The audience knows full well what they are getting, and, in truth, are expected to join in, not sit back and accept it as traditional 'entertainment'. It is the modern day equivalent of the 'pub sing-along'. The fun comes from joining in, not just watching!

But leave the vast majority of your show to a machine, while you play a minimalist part (if anything), and where, exactly, IS the difference between you and karaoke?

Do a LOT more, play everything you possibly can, use as little of the machine backing as you can humanly get away with, and for starters, the audience will SEE you playing that, as long as you don't hide away behind a shield of equipment, stands and laptop screens! Show them it IS you, and no-one will EVER come up and say you are 'cheating'. They never have to me, at least

I think a lot of the rancor comes from players that DO use a majority of machine backing, but would still LIKE to be considered 'players', at least on a forum full of arranger players that perhaps quite a LOT of them are skilled regular 'players' also. My take on this is basically just be comfortable with what you do, be honest about it's differences with traditional playing, and don't go looking for acceptance in a field that you don't actually participate in. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with what you are doing, NOTHING wrong with the field you ARE in, it just isn't 'player'...

It's 'entertainer', or maybe they just don't have a word for it, yet, it being so new. I don't know. But trust me, for those that CAN play without machines, for those that DO play the majority of what the audience hears, for those that DON'T pantomime the Intros (or anything at all), they are VERY aware that what you are doing is NOT what we are doing, and probably dislike it being called the same thing! I personally don't have a problem with anything you DO, but don't try to persuade me that you are doing the same thing!

That's all.

All we have in common is the TOOL we use for our particular skills, not the skill itself. You can use a screwdriver as an electrician, and you can use a screwdriver as a plumber. But if you are an electrician, DON'T try to persuade a plumber that you are one too, just because you have a screwdriver as well! You pretty much KNOW what that will get you!

One last thing... Before you rush out to hit that 'Reply' button, and start to castigate me, DON'T assume that when I say 'YOU' I am addressing YOU personally. It's the correct form of address to a 'General' forum, the plural of 'YOU' (don't you LOVE English!).

But it IS a reply to those that think that there is NO distinction between ANY form of entertainment, and everyone should be labeled the same. I don't want anyone turning up at my shows, expecting to see karaoke. They might actually WANT it, and I would hate to see them disappointed! Be proud of what you do, and don't try to label it something it is NOT. Find a label that is different (because it IS different) and be proud of that. If you don't like 'karaoke', invent one for yourselves...

Then be proud of THAT, and defend it from others that call themselves it, but are something else altogether...

You know, the 'Circle of Strife'... (thank you, Elton John)
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Now, can you see your shadow...?

Some of you guys must have a whole lot of free time on your hands to come up with BS like this. Why don't you consider spending more time performing and less time bitching about the semantics of it? I think you might find that much more fulfilling.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

And yet, magically, you found the time to join in, Joe...

Surely the high road would have been to not post at all (because you were practicing?) if you are SO against it

Amen Joe!!!!

Jim and Joe, I can see your point. I am not exactly overjoyed to have to re-hash the same (or slightly different spin on the same) all the time...

BUT... let's face it, if you are not keen on these kinds of threads, instead of just simply bitching about it, why don't you start your own, fascinating threads that will divert everyone's attention permanently away from this topic? You know, be a part of the solution, not part of the problem?

And then, when most of the members ignore them, and go back to this tired topic, just basically recognize that, no-one cares about your fascinating topics, useful tidbits, stuff that interests YOU (or me!), and either join in or hit "back' without comment. But complaining about stuff without offering an alternative strikes me as...

One two cha cha cha.

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

But leave the vast majority of your show to a machine, while you play a minimalist part (if anything), and where, exactly, IS the difference between you and karaoke?

For one there is no TV screen with displayed lyrics. In fact here is no music video or CDG.

No members of the audience can select a song to sing.

The backing tracks are MINE..not recordings of the original arrangement

I guess its that people who feel they are "excellent players" have to separate themselves from the rest with semantics in order to support their elitism. In the end the money is the same and the everyday club audience doesn't care how many years one took lessons. The just want to hear Margaritaville and Sweet Caroline. Not Paganini. they don't care if one is playing or wandering the room.

Karaoke requires more than just a background track.

by definition: an act of singing along to a music video, esp. one from which the original vocals have been electronically eliminated.
-Random House dictionary

a device that plays instrumental accompaniments for a selection of songs to which the user sings along and that records the user's singing with the music; also : a form of entertainment involving the use of a karaoke machine

-Websters

By shear definition leaving the keyboard and singing cannot be described as Karaoke at all.

You can put your boots in the oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.

If you're singing over a background track...AND you're not playing your keyboard...it is Karaoke...in MY opinion...you can call it whatever YOU want.

You seem to want only one, and only one, response.

You should realize that people learn, and benefit, from many replies.

There are no elitists around here...just realists.

There's NOTHING wrong with singing over a backing track...but it is what it is.

Ian

Or you could just POST a posting where every occasional word is in CAPS so it seems like someone is SHOUTING those words into your face to make you think that what they SAY has got to be the TRUTH.

And by the way singing to backing tracks really is not the definition of karaoke. There are live bands around that offer karaoke services where people sing the songs they pick to live music played against a click to allow the lyrics display to sync with the music. Karaoke is simply unpaid singers singing. Paid professional singers singing to backing tracks really isn't the same thing.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 05-04-2008).]

We could call it "Professional Karaoke"...since the singer is being paid.

Call it whatever you wish...perhaps "Karaoke" is the wrong term...but it is still singing over a backing track whilst not playing anything.

I do know that I wouldn't pay to see it.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-04-2008).]

All this just makes me realise an ultimate truth.


There's no Black and White - just shades of Grey.

(or, if you're an optimist)

"all the colours of the Rainbow!!!!"

And the singer's performance is different in what way ? Singing over a backing track versus singing over a live track ... isn't the only difference the musical backing ?

I think you will find that all professional singers have sung to backing tracks at some times during their career.

( I was tempted to type ALL in caps there but resisted the temptation lmao ).


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 05-04-2008).]

I'm talking about the absence of "playing" not the singing.

To see someone playing the keyboard and then walk away from it whilst it is still playing...can you tell me, honestly, that it doesn't look phony?

Certainly any playing you do from then on will be under scrutiny, and what's to say you haven't been faking it all along?

Ian

Yes...it sure is hard to resist using caps.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-04-2008).]

OF course not but plenty of club owners would rather pay $200 to one person rather than $800 to four playing essentially the same music. They have no issue paying someone to get off the keyboard and walk around the room whilst the music plays on as long as their patrons are having a good time and spending money. Thats what really counts. Not some keyboard elitist's opinion of what should and should not be worthy of respect or "tacky".

I live in one of the most busy entertainment areas of the US for OMB and duos. Someone with an Arranger and Bose System gets a lot of calls.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-04-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-04-2008).]

At one time or another I've seen many famous singers sing to tracks. For instance, on Regis and Kelly and other similar programs, there's no band or anything, so the singer sings to their recorded tracks. Most people figure that out and accept it.

As for one of us leaving the keyboard and working the room, it depends on the situation. In retirement community shows, it's an awesome thing to do because you can have intimate contact with the audience. And I do sit right back down and tear it up on the KB. I would never ever do a whole show to tracks, but a couple of great, well chosen arrangements can really be effective. I usually do my own with the arranger and background vocals, ect, however, if you want to end your show with New York, New York, there's nothing better that Frank's arrangement. Again, just my humble opinion.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Careful where you point that finger, Mr.Frog...you do have three pointing back.

My opinion is from how it looks to me...you obviously don't agree...that's fine...and even though my opinion is clearly the right one(for me)I still think you're a great guy.

You fail to see the difference in someone being an "elitist"...which I am not...and a "realist" which I certainly am.

I just think that the whole business of walking away from the keyboard whilst it is playing(after you've just been playing it) is phony looking...that's all...and it is just a peeve of mine.

It ain't gonna change.

And look...no caps.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-04-2008).]

Funny, I pay all the time to see a singer that plays nothing in bands. What's the difference? If you are a singer, as I am, your craft includes your voice and a mic...what I give with my hands is a bonus.

When I saw Tower Of Power 2 weeks ago, LB just sang, and no one thought he was doing Kara..... well, you know.

As a singer, fronting a band (digital or live) is something I have always done.

If you sell yourself as a "singer", and not as a "one man band" or "one person orchestra"...then it doesn't matter what you use as as a backing track, or if you play at all...the sole purpose for you being there is to sing (and entertain).

I know I would not pay for, or be interested in, seeing a singer perform over a pre-recorded backing track...no matter who they were.

It's professional karaoke, plain and simple.

I would not attend a concert where the singer showed up with canned backing and no visible back up musicians.

Waste of time and money.

You guys are watching too many of these talent shows on TV...

Ian

Ian, I agree completely. I see a microphone and no instrument...I walk away.

Russ

Careful Russ. You might get labeled an 'elitist'.....like that other guy who was raised by a single mom on food stamps. (Remember, this board is just a microcosm of our society.....well, the Republican side of it, anyway ).

chas

Singing over a backing track is no different to singing with a band? Or playing your own accompaniment? This is what you are trying to tell us? You honestly think that no-one cares, no-one notices...?

You had better pray that this is NOT the case... Because that audience probably doesn't care if they have ANY live music at all, and that includes you! I am sure some young pretty thing would 'entertain' them just as well lip-syncing to a CD. After all, how are they to know if it's live or not?

In fact, why not get a Platstation, and 'entertain' your crowd with Rock Band or Guitar Hero III. Same difference, as far as I am concerned. I'll tell you one thing... I am gaining a whole new lack of respect for some of our members just lately. C'mon Nigel. You can't start that Karaoke, Lip-syncers and Pantomimers Forum soon enough for me...

And then some of you are confused as to why some arranger players feel the instrument gets no respect... Come on... you are reading the VERY thing that engenders this attitude. Both from the public (who are nowhere NEAR as dumb as you make them out) and from other musicians (you know, those mythic creatures who PLAY music instead of performing 'pro' karaoke - what idiots they must be!).

Maybe the next time someone comes over and says you are 'cheating' even if you DID play most of it... You'll know who to blame.
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BTW... Seeing as this forum does NOT provide the UBB tools to underline, make bold, italicize, colorize or change font and type size conveniently (like many forums do) rather than having to memorize the code for this, when I want to make a PARTICULAR emphasis, I will use what is most convenient. You don't have to shout to change your emphasis when speaking, but you have to so SOMETHING when typing...

In America, of all places, I am PROUD to be an unashamed CAPITALIST....