Here is my view
Here Goes,

I've read lots of the posts and responses to this subject rehashed a dozen or so different ways. It seems the big debate and claim is that Most people that play arrangers and make a living with them are cheaters.

I think what some are forgetting is that we are entertainers first. I think an arranger KB is a great tool. I read some critical responses that some users play the wrong chords and use wrong tempos and voices. Some are accused of cheating by playing single finger chords. Some people are blasted for using Midi file backings.

If the activity directors stop calling, and the patrons stop coming to the gigs, and the country clubs stop calling to book. It's because the unskilled performers and entertainers were found out. They will be weeded out and probably become full time home playing hobbyists.


That being said, Lots of arranger kb players out there are very successful and great entertainers. They may know zilch about music theory, Some may play with midi files, Some may not know a more than 4 chords, Some may even use the 1 finger approach. some may even play every song in the key of "c" or might be singers with minimal piano skills just looking to play along.

The arranger KB allows you to sound like a full band. If you wanna perform a show on a grand piano just to prove your a chopin in training, thats fine. It may come across a little bland and not the best format at a dance or something upbeat

85% of the audience couldn't tell the difference between a dminor and a Zminor.

In my own experience I am a guitarist first. I've been playing for over 25 years. The arranger has allowed me to create my show at myspace.com/kidconcert (Mikey Maestro's Dance Party). If i tried to do that show with a guitar only it would flop. It would be dull and boring. The Tyros 2 has allowed me to take these famous kids songs and give them a polished in your face arrangment. I know for a fact that none of the key players in charge of booking me has ever said ...Hmmm. Mikey's Playing 1,4,5 progressions tonight.
I have managed to get peoples attention and be booked solid year round and asked to come back over and over again.

So I hope I didn't offend anyone.
Just wanted to add my two cents to this ongoing topic...

It's About people leaving your show ENTERTAINED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




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God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

Oh, not to fret. I think there are only a few on this forum that dis arrangers - I just ignore them and continue on

Right-on Mikey.

Don Mason was once a contestant on the hit game show "Play That Tune". His response was "I can play that song with 3 chords".

Tom

What is the third chord Tom???

Bebop

In country the third chord is usually "5".

At least that's how it is taught in Nashville.

Eddie

well said MICKEY///I think if you got the music in ya, and put on a good show, with your k.b and can play,thats great,I'm self taught, and proud of It,///my cousin who graduated from conservatory of music, and plays a huge pipe organ,in a large church,sure thought the music, I played was great,It's all about that wonderful gift ,some of us were given,as for me I do love to hear a good piano also...PAULA

Could not disagree more. I am not an entertainer so i dont fit in your category but i use an arranger and would choose it over any other keyboard. If you just want to entertain and get paid thats fine. I actually want to play well and develope as a musician. I play music for myself first.The music is what its about for me, not work,not fees, not popularity with patrons.

I have been on this forum for a while, now. Where on earth is there any credible post calling using an arranger 'cheating'?

You CAN'T cheat... A bad player doesn't sound ANY better on an arranger, except maybe to himself

Standing behind a keyboard, and not playing a note, but pretending to play, well PERHAPS that could be called 'cheating'. But if you sang, it could be called karaoke - or if you didn't, it could STILL be called DJ-ing!

Cheating implies the taking of credit for things you have not played. No-one here doing that, is there?

I swear, I have never hung around so many folks with a chip on their shoulder....

Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up.

I was playing the B3 in restaurants and honkytonks in the sixties, before arrangers were around. Am I now less of a musician because I play out with an arranger. I don't think so.
Bernie

Fully agree with you,Mikey

Impuls

Mikey, you're a kid's entertainer...you must be familiar with Dr. Seuss.

He said, "Do what you want and say what you feel because those that mind, don't matter and those that matter, don't mind"!

Continue on your way, my friend...you are obviously on the right path.

Ian

I would say the LACK of knowledge by the public & other kb musicians & beyond is the culprit that gives Arranger KB & players a bad rap. 99% of them have no idea what an arranger is or how it works.

You're right, John.

I also find that a lot of traditional players are actually intimidated by arranger keyboards.

Ian

I'm usually with you, Ian, but not on that. I can't think of any. A good player, traditional or otherwise, may be intimidated by another PLAYER, but not by a machine. JMO.

chas

I meant the instrument is intimidating to play, Chas...to a traditional piano player or even a B3 player, it is a whole different world, and a different approach.

I know...I try to sell these instruments to traditional players...most are boggled by the technology, and many refuse to embrace it.

You may be an exception, as are a few others on this forum (this IS an arranger forum), but for the most part, arrangers (and related gear, like workstations) are quite intimidating to traditional players.


Ian

Errrm- well, possibly.
I'd have thought anyone who plays with Styles; those riffs, designed by others are automatic, with the entertainer providing only guidance, not actually doing the playing of them.
Not that I would go around calling it cheating, but since the question was asked.............

John (Ty2 player)

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 04-20-2008).]

They get intimidated by the talent it takes to perform well with an arranger keyboard for sure. They know its more complicated controlling all that is being heard to them. Most straight KB players need other people to do their thing or use SMF backing tracks via a WS versus having all that & most importantly Live STYLES also to play in real time too.

Just where on earth is this coming from...? I have been playing arrangers for 15 years. No-one has EVER come up to me and bad mouthed arrangers, or arranger players. EVER...

Are they bad mouthing YOU? Or your arranger? If not... move on. Get over it.

If they ARE, record yourself and figure out WHY...

99% of the public has no idea how a Hammond or a Steinway works, either. THEY don't have a bad rep... It's time to stop acting the victim, and look around for WHY (or even IF...) the arranger actually has this reputation. I haven't seen or heard it myself...

And PLEASE....! Don't give me that intimidation bull... You want intimidation? Sit down at a MotifXS, or a Kurzweil K2500, and try to figure out quickly how to do anything but call up ONE patch and play it!

Arrangers are DESIGNED to be operated by beginner players. Workstations are NOT. Any keyboard player that is intimidated by an arranger has probably played nothing more complicated than a piano or an organ (and some of those are as complicated as an arranger!). Sure, they take a little while to learn to operate them. You didn't get the entire concept the first time YOU played one either, did you?

But 'intimidated'.... Get real!

Yes, bud...they are intimidated....really!

The problem lies in the cheap craftsmanship and design of some arrangers. Silly colored buttons, color schemes and funky cheap plastic cases. Put the same crappy arranger in a great looking package and you'll solve half the problem. The other half is the player himself. Get good.

Cassp I agree arrangers like the 13,130,G1000, G70 really look professional & were built like tanks.....but somehow they have slipped downhill in craftsmanship even though it doesn't effect their sound for the most part like my plastic Psr3000 which to me still sounds excellent. But I would prefer a better build & less of the things Cass is stating.

Darn - I can't remember the last time I have been paid this well to be a "cheater". Laughing all the way to the bank.

hammer

I kind of see the issue, and kind of don't.
(yeah - fence sitter...or open minded to both sides of the argument maybe).

One question though - basically on topic:

What's wrong with playing with Midi Files?

I personally don't use them, but I see nothing wrong with using them if they fit a person's needs.

What about playing along with an MP3?

Is it that much different?


Ian

This is amazing. In all the years I've been an entertainer, NO ONE--NOT A SINGLE PERSON, has ever come up to me and said anything derogatory about my guitars, keyboards, amps, mics. No one has evern said anything about the build, weight, color, size, number of keys, speakers, the seat I sit upon, or for that matter made any statements other than complements about the performance. And, I have been approached my hundreds of musicians, many of them professionally trained.

I had Peabody trained players come up to me and stand off to the side to watch me perform, then after the performance tell me how much they envied someone who had the technical knowledge to be able to play, switch instruments, hit the correct fills, sing, and at the end of a song be able to instantly select the next song. And to be able to do this on the fly.

A retired concert piano player said to me last week "How in the world did you ever learn to use such a complex instrument? It has so many buttons, different screens, and menus that it looks more complicated than the cockpit of a commercial airliner." He also complemented me on the performance, and said how wonderful everything sounded throughout the venue. I don't believe he was intimidated in the least. I was performing two feet in front of the facility's Steinway Grand--I wasn't intimidated either.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

I think for non-entertainers, there is a difference in attitudes. In my circle of players, the majority of the people using arrangers now did not have the skills to work before, atr least in this area. They were sort of "hangers on". It generally had to do with timing problems. They work now and I'm happy for them.

Talented entertainers are a delight. I'm not one.

I think any criticism of arranger players comes from within. It's not the public or purists but the players themselves trying to justify what they do.

We all just need to play whatever we want to, however we want to, and enjoy the benefist or suffer the consequences.

A while back, several long-time member/entertaines said in effect that anyone can play, but only the real talent can entertain. You know what my reaction to that was.

I own 4 arrangers, plus my old auto orchestra, which still works, so I don't have any room to criticize.


Russ

OK, let's take this back to the start, shall we?

I am SO TIRED of this 'victim' mentality. Where is this big debate? Where is the claim of 'cheating'? Where, EXACTLY, is the post that says this?

This is a self perpetuating thread, that apparently has NO beginning, and obviously, due to SOME with a thin skin and an overdeveloped chip on their shoulder, no friggin' end!

Now, if someone comes up to YOU personally, and tells you you are cheating, well, go ahead and post about it. Of course, you need to be able to describe WHAT sort of a person it was, did they have any credibility at all? Were they an out of work drummer? Were they the head of a record company? Were they some drunk without the slightest clue?

Look, it's a very impolite world out there, these days. A lot of folks feel they have the right to come up to you and tell you the first thing that pops into their brains, hurtful or not. But you don't honestly take any of this seriously, do you?? Do you really have THAT much respect for drunks' opinions?

Criticism AND flattery... You have to take them with a pillar of salt. Someone comes up to you and gushes "You are the best keyboard player I have EVER heard!" You don't, for one minute, actually walk away thinking you ARE the best keyboard player, do you?

So why, when another idiot comes up and goes "You suck, You are nothing but a cheater!" do you actually walk away thinking THAT applies to you either?

Grow an epidermis, gents. There's only ONE indicator of if you are doing a good job or not. If the audience is still there at the END of your show...

And make your OWN mind up about whether you are 'cheating' or not. If you stand behind the keyboard, don't play a note, and keep your audience, only you can decide for yourself if you are 'cheating'. Obviously, the audience doesn't care....

But ENOUGH WITH THE SOURCELESS 'QUOTES'....

Wait until an ACTUAL wrong is done to you before you spend all this energy getting indignant. As I said, no-one has EVER come up to me and accused me of 'cheating', or has EVER bashed my arranger. Or, at least, no-one who's opinion I cared enough about it to actually worry

Only a few times have I been approached with real criticism, and these were by out-of-work drummers and such saying I was taking their jobs. YES I AM! ... is all I can say.
It does bother me some that a lot of people think everything is recorded, or that "the computer does it". Almost every night someone will ask "Do you have (song title) in there?" Not, "can you play (song title)." This doesn't bother me so much if I remember that the reason they are saying that is that the music is good enough that they think it's a CD.
I also have heard the comments such as "man those computers can do everything now."
Sometimes I take the time to explain how the arranger works. Other times I just smile and keep playing.
Last Saturday night, a young couple sat very near the bandstand, where they could see the keyboard and everything I was doing. They both watched very closely and didn't say much. After a few songs, I turned around and said, "Please don't tell anyone I'm really playing; they think it's recorded". This got a big smile. Turns out one of them was a piano teacher and the other a clarinet player. They were amazed at what I was able to do with the arranger and they were extremely complimentary. I believe they had no idea such technology existed.
I don't think any of this means anything much, just observations from one who is in the trenches every night.
DonM

THAT is good. Hope you don't mind if I steal that line.
Eddie

Knock yourself out Eddie!!
DonM

Yep, that is good, Don...I must remember that one.

Ian

Ok!
Let me clarify some things from the post.

1. Maybe I wasnt careful enough when using the word "cheaters" The intent wasn't to lash out, cry or act as if I have a chip on my shoulder.

How I should have worded the opening paragraph was .... I get the impression some posters from the KB forums on the net seem to feel that people who couldnt sit at a piano or workstation and put on a performance were fudging their way around using an arranger to make up for their lack of keyboard talent and performing gigs making the music biz look bad.

I wasn't trying to single anyone out. I wasn't trying to put anyone down.

Some posted as if I were writing as if it was from personal experience and had thin skin. No one has ever put my skills down. I'm very comfortable with my ability and my very busy schedule. I was speaking for all arranger players in general.

I meant that from a gigging standpoint entertainment was the key not who knows the most chords and who plays the best LeftHand runs. I think everyone should strive to get better and learn as much as they can about their instrument.

This post was just to give my honest opinion and read it with an open mind.

I love this forum and appreaciate the input and comments from everyone. I've learned so much about arrangers on here.

Thanks to all of you who spent countless hours with me on the phone or skype or by email giving me pointers to make the arranger work best for me and sharing styles,midis etc.

Hope I clarified some of that Post.



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God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

Good post, Mikey.

I am more impressed by what feeling a player gives to the audience than by a technical display of their keyboard skills.

And, contrary to the belief of some forumites, the arranger keyboard can convey many emotions.

All you have to do is look at the kid's faces in your videos...that's proof enough for me.

Ian

I was enjoying a youtube vid the other day of Pat Metheny with Herbie Hancock and Jack Dejohnette. Incredible players. From another room, my girlfriend asked "What's the weather today?". She thought I was watching the Weather Channel! Different ears.

While I personally find it excruciating to sit and listen to some guy rock out on an arppegiator all night long, he's got every right to do that. Earn a living doing it? Why not! The level of variety in music is incredible. Snobbism is a drag.

Well said and welcome to the forum

Someone asked “What’s wrong with playing MIDI files? I’m surprised no one responded to that? What I find wrong with them is they strip you of your creativity (if you’re one of the lucky ones who possesses “creativity”). The arranger doesn’t entertain the audience…the player does. The music doesn’t emanate from the keyboard…it comes from inside the player. The MIDI file doesn’t identify an artist…the playing style does!

I’ve been resisting using MIDI files for that very reason (though I can see the day where that will eventually change). What distinguishes each one of us, to the audience/listener, is our musical individuality. I’m trying to retain mine and not fall into the convenience of pre-recorded material. Sure I can give my audience a bigger, fatter sound but I’d rather give them ME and what I consider to be true emotionally charged and improvisational music.

At home, for practice, I often take a song and try and play it 20 different ways: different key, different tempo, style (ex: play any 4/4 as a tango, bossa, swing, even a waltz, etc)....I’m sure you get my drift. I do this to keep my mind active, creative and searching for new ideas. I bring that to my performance and could never do this with a MIDI file.

Which brings me to my second point. I play everything “out of my head.” I’ve memorized everything I do. Hence, I’ll change direction in the middle of a song in accordance to where the arrangement in my mind is taking me. Maybe I’d like to tack on a different ending? Or maybe the folks are still dancing to the current tune? Maybe I want to do a medley of songs? Quite often I’ll do theme’s as I feel it (patriotic..holidays…different countries). MIDI files would limit me severely in that context.

Again, this is MY choice and what works best for me. But I like to consider myself not just a musician but a THINKING musician.

As for arrangers being “intimidating,” they are analogous to computers (which they actually are) and just about anything technological. All electronics (TV remote, garage door opener, dashboard radio, etc) look intimidating until you LEARN them. If you view them as complicated and never open the manual, they will remain that way.

What helps a lot is to learn and understand how computers work. With that knowledge behind you, everything you then encounter you will have a head start on, including...ARRANGERS!

I couldn’t end without saying what particularly irks me. Those arranger artists who leave the thing running while they sing. They don’t bother to play an instrumental “ride” in between, and NEVER concern themselves with fill-ins, breaks, playing “around” the break, “silent” breaks, pitch bending or modulation for instrument realism, changing styles in the middle of a song. In short, many OMB’s I listen to just…….leave it running!

Lucky

Careful, Lucky... That last paragraph has been labeled 'arranger bashing' many a time.

But, primarily, by folks that think it comes a little uncomfortably close to what they admit to themselves they actually do...

You might also consider that SMF's, now they can be tagged with Markers that you can Jump to spontaneously, allow a certain freedom that never used to exist. It's easy to fall into old habits of thought, but technology moves along, whether we follow it or not... Dual, synced sequencers, Mark/Jump points, on the fly Part soloing an muting, synced sequencers AND arranger sections. Many TOTL and lower arrangers allow this flexibility...

'But why would we use this when the arranger section is so capable?' you might ask? Well, as I've been trying to point out for a while, there are almost as many things you CAN'T do in arranger mode, as things you CAN'T do when using an SMF. Both systems have their shortcomings... One of which, as you mentioned the bender, you must have already run into. If you use the lever (only way to bend up AND down, AFAIK) you CANNOT do a bend when you have to play a chord on the same beat. And a LOT of really juicy bend techniques happen ACROSS chord boundaries, not after them or before.

That's just ONE thing. There are many others. This is why I don't go all purist, and play EVERYTHING in one mode. The SONG and the music calls you to do things... Sometimes, only arranger mode gives you the freedom to do it. Sometimes only SMFs gives you the ability. Sometimes a combination of BOTH... Railroad yourself into any one arbitrary system, and you limit your potential.

Let the MUSIC dictate how something gets played, rather than some kind of philosophy...

Even worse...they walk away from the keyboard whilst singing or playing another instrument....very tacky...reeks of Karaoke.

Ian

Yea leave the KB running with a Midi file put on your Chicken Hat and head out to the audience......you'll make so many people happy & put a big smile on their faces.
It's so rewarding spiritually & monetarilly also.

Mmmm...let's see...karaoke chicken...sounds like a dish on the menu....when do we eat?

Egad, Martha! He's not playing! Must be one of those newfangled I-pods with keys!

Just funnin'

Ian

Playing anything MORE then a solo instrument will always leave the audience thinking......cassettes, backing tracks, computer,midi files,mp3's,karaoke, DJ, & any assorted multi faceted music making contraptions inspired by what they all see at bars, functions, catering halls, NH's, etc, etc, ....its the way of the musical world today, your NOT fooling anyone. If you want to see "unautomated" players go to a Jazz club & enjoy.
What ever you do ....
DO IT WELL & make it Sound GREAT & they can never knock you. It is.... what it is, period

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-23-2008).]

Yes... That's about it in a nutshell (again)!

You don't think for one minute the audience thinks you are playing the drums, the bass, the guitars, the horns, strings and synths all at the same time, do you?

You are the conductor of this band, NOT the player... And whether you 'conduct' this orchestra in advance (SMFs, mp3's) or on the fly (arranger mode), the audience is pretty much aware it's NOT all you... I guarantee that not one of them cares either way!

The only thing you'll get credit for, if you can make it flashy enough, is the actual solo part. And, in truth, that IS the only part YOU play, unless you use SMFs that you make yourself, or styles that you have created.

This is why I often use SMFs, even for tunes I COULD play in arranger mode. Want to give them something visual, that they can see beyond a doubt that YOU are playing? Give 100% to the solo and keyboard parts, use both hands, play like every other keyboard player (in a band) that they have seen... THEN (IMO) they 'get it'. It's YOU, not the machine that's playing that...!

At least once or twice a set, give them some flash, let them know who's in charge... you, or the machine

I think there is also another dimension. there are patrons who know the difference between an arranger player who does all three chord tunes in C with simple single note lead lines (or maby no solos at all) and one who uses more complicated structures, variations on basic lead lines, modulations, tasteful solo tone selections, well delivered vocal treatments and harmonies, etc.

All arranger players are NOT^ created equal!


Russ

Careful, Russ. There's that 'arranger bashing' again!

Didn't you know...? That's all you need to know to be a 'pro' and entertain a crowd. Why bother learning all that other stuff if the audience doesn't care one way or the other?

(Still don't know what the smiley for 'tongue in cheek' is )

Of course the audience knows it's not ALL you...BUT they'd have to be pretty dense to not notice you ARE playing SOMETHING...even if it is just LH chords and RH melody, or with a SMF, a two handed piano part.

It's when YOU (not me...I stay put) walk away from the keyboard while it's STILL PLAYING...to sing amongst the audience with your little hat thingy(or wig and evening gown...or whatever ) or pick up another instrument to play...THAT's when they will begin to wonder if you were EVER playing anything at all, or just doing the Milli Vanilli in arranger land....and you know what happened to those guys.

To me, that's what gives arranger players a bad rap...not what, or how they play...but IF they are playing.

Just my little peeve...there I said it...now I feel better.

Ian

A good point, Ian, but, like I said, play with enough flash when you ARE playing the keyboard, and make sure it doesn't 'flash' by itself while you pick up a secondary instrument (there's NO WAY I would ever walk away from the keyboard and sing... I don't book myself as 'karaoke'), and they pretty much 'get it'.

As long as when YOU stop playing, YOUR parts don't continue, it's pretty obvious what is happening... In fact, one more reason to play as much as humanly possible yourself, and only use the basic rhythm section of the arranger, or SMF of the same. Show them that it's YOU playing it by the simple fact that it STOPS when you do something different...

But walk out into the audience while NOTHING changes in the backing, and they have every right to assume that's all you are EVER playing...

I still feel it looks bad to walk away whilst it's playing...I think they'd (the audience)still think you (not you, specifically) had been faking it no matter how much effort you put into it...the fact that something (anything) is still playing without your hands on the keys, is kind of a dead giveaway.

You and I might know the difference...but the average listener would feel that it was a fake.

And...we do play for the average listener or the "common ear" as I like to call it...and once they get the idea(even though it's wrong) that you're not really playing, their opinion of arranger players has changed for the worst.

You might get away with it if only the drums were playing...but not if there is a bit more happening, like a bass line or chords playing.

Again..it's just my peeve, and it's sure not to matter to many other players.

Ian

Nothing wrong with letting the arranger play by itself or smf player....pick up a sax trumpet or even a trombone or play some congas & timbales along with the song who cares its all music & you the entertainer.
There are no rules...make it fun & it will rub off on the audience instead of them sitting there yawning no one want to see a lump on a log.

Not too many years ago, I used to fire up the keyboard using a third-party style, pick up a wireless, hand-held mic, hit a Cm key and walk among the bar crowd singing Fever to the ladies. They absolutely loved it! It was the only time I left the keyboard, and I told them in advance I was putting the keyboard on Auto-Pilot just to do this special song for the ladies. This was at the Havre de Grace, Maryland American Legion, a smoke-filled bar room where nearly everyone was blasted by 10 p.m.. I've since sold the wireless system to a friend who loves it. I could probably get away with this in some of the retirement communities I perform at, but the ladies would be groping me--UGH! I havn't been groped in nearly a half-century, and I'm not sure if I could still handle it. Might be fun, though......

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Wouldn't matter if you set yourself on fire and had someone put you out with a hammer...you'd still be away from the keys...and the music would still be playing with no one at the controls.

Diki is fortunate to be in a duo...at least there is someone else moving and playing when he plays his trombone....I don't think it would have the same effect in a solo situation.

If you stared the evening by not playing at all, and only sang along with the instrument, then they'd have nothing to compare it to....and it probably wouldn't matter.

AND, there are several players on this forum who entertain their audiences quite well without ever leaving the keys...they don't seem to be putting anybody asleep...do they?

But, obviously, it is not a peeve of yours.


Ian

Donny, that approach is evidently fine for some people here...entertainers where the show is the main thing, I suspect.

I'd get run out of the room if I pulled something like that. Of course, I have a narrow area of specialization and a small but very loyal following. Mine are music hardliners who would immediately catch a fumbled change or a wrong lyric. And I'd be fired at the first sight of a chicken hat.

Thank goodness they're around!

You and I (and many others here, actually) have 180 degree differences in every aspect of how we work...from equipment, to material to presentation. I'm glad things work out....for BOTH of us. I wouldn't know how to, and would have no interest in doing it your way. And, you'd probably hate the way I do things.

It's cool that people with such drastically different approaches can still share information and experiences where the only "right" answer is the way it works for each individual.

R.

Correctomundo, Russ...it is truly an "each to his own" forum, but we can still enjoy and learn from (and poke fun at) the different musical approaches shared on this site.

Ian

Russ the music world would be a very boring place if all we had were hardliners out in the audience...each audience is different & each venue calls for a different approach.....all of them are correct if you read them right and perform to your best ability...again If the situation calls for it I will jump off the stage and put a chicken hat on the most "macho guy" in the Circle of Dancers & stick him in the middle to do the Chix Dance if it means making them happy, and 99.9% of the time it results in extra bookings, tips, & a very good time had by all involved especially the kids. Do I do it every show?... of course not, its just another tool in my bag of tricks to make my gig a success amongst many other things. Sure we can discuss various approaches, but I would never say I "hate" what you do or any other musician, in fact I got bashed by many here for having the balls to even ask for the most important thing that we do ....."HEAR SOME OF THE PEOPLE HERE PLAY SOME MUSIC" of any kind....why? because I love to listen and learn from others no matter what they play at any level but somehow thats TABOO. Being a well rounded all acceptable player makes for a good recipe in my book always has & always will be.
I was so disappointed not to be able to make the Jam in Shreevport for that very reason...to hear others play their style of music and learn from each other. Russ its worked for me 40+ years I dont intend to stop doing what I do but I will always add to it to make it better. Good luck with your music & I hope to be in the audience someday with those hardliners sipping a Tequila and listening to some of your great Jazz licks for sure..

carry On

Dp



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-23-2008).]

Donny,

It pains me to agree with you on something:

“I got bashed by many here for having the balls to even ask for the most important thing that we do ....."HEAR SOME OF THE PEOPLE HERE PLAY SOME MUSIC" of any kind....why? because I love to listen and learn from others no matter what they play at any level but somehow thats TABOO.”

WHY is this taboo? I’ve seen this phenomenon on every music site I’ve visited on the Web (save the Roland group). I mean…no one “trades” music ideas. And, I find, very few even have any original music ideas to begin with (but I hope I’m wrong on this one….maybe I’m shopping in the wrong stores?).

But the lack of music ideas! Is it selfishness, self-absorption, ego, jealousy, insecurity, fear of someone usurping you?

I can’t remember the last time I heard a piece like Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody. Every theme in that song could have been used to make another complete song and yet they threw them all together. Why not? They and every other 70’s group were brimming with ideas for their next gem.

Even in the 50’s….the great music they came up with having only 3 and 4 chords to work with in the whole tune.

So I ask the question again. How come no one talks music talk? Example: Save The Last Dance For Me: after playing the original “strings” line in the release and BEFORE coming back in again with vocals, I like to improvise alternating between Eb and Bb7 on the steel drums using trills. Then somewhere in the song I’ll bring in a cowbell pattern from an external drum machine synched to my arranger and play it through a separate speaker off to the side of the main ones for an added dimension. Well…..to be honest, I used to do that (the cowbell part) but not nowadays.

So….can I hear some of YOUR ideas for playing music? Like Donny said….on ANY level!

Lucky

There's only ONE reason anyone ever refuses to post an example of what they are talking about... INSECURITY.

Whether you feel you won't get a fair shake from the forum, or whether you just feel, once you actually bother to record yourself and realize, well, perhaps there's a way to go, insecurity lies at the heart of this.

Lot's of people 'talk the talk', but let's face it. This IS a musician's forum. What good is the 'talk' without the 'walk'..? We connect, we UNDERSTAND what each other is trying to say by musical example. A monkey could type a lot of these posts! But he couldn't play an example.

Talking about music is like dancing about mathematics...

It's the wrong medium to illustrate your point.

Maybe even a recording is not enough..? Some of the 'entertainers' here really need to be seen on video before some of their views become apparent. Me, I'd pay good money to see that chicken hat routine

No, Diki...there are TWO reasons...insecurity is one, no doubt, but there are others who are SECURE enough not to need or want to post.

Given some of the long term animosity shown on this forum between certain members, there probably is a third reason...COMMON SENSE.

Usually, the ones(not all, mind you) that are yammering away about posting are singing over someone else's SMF anyway...so what's the point...they aren't really "playing" anything...it provides nothing but a peek into how well (or not so well) they can sing.

If someone is kind enough to be interested in what I play...I send them an MP3...or a MIDI if they wish.

The "chicken hat" thing sounds like it borders on animal abuse to me(look where it has to sit )...but I suppose it's better than a gorilla suit.

Here's an idea? Maybe Nigel can create a SONG POSTING ONLY Forum on SZ so that the people who want to post can do so & people can discuss musical styles no matter what level, or the way its performed, SMF, Mp3, Video, Singing or whatever they play. I see on the PSR Tutorial people post songs all the time with great results. After all it would be nice to actually hear all the so called "Talkers" music as Diki said above so we can learn from what they are all talking about.

Lucky2Bhere, your post makes a lot of sense also.

I'm a SINGER/SONGWRITER (acoustic guitar/keys)and I've written close to 50 songs using basically only all the major/minor chords sprinkled with a 7th here and there....Physically it is impossible for me with my limited finger dexterity to do the others....And you know what ????? I got a couple of really special tunes...

I SAY WE MAKE THE MOST OF THE TALENTS WE'VE BEEN GIVEN AND LET THE AUDIENCE DECIDE...

BTW....I do not own an ARRANGER but to get to the original theme on the thread I personally would play the full chord....But if someone wishes to use these boards to their advantage I see no problem with it....Are one finger chords cheesy???Probably....Does it help them musically ????Probably not....Does it get the job done on these boards???? Apparently....And I think thats why people get mad....they look at that as not real musicianship...

I know rappers who know absolutely nothing about music but use WS for their beats....Does it bother me??? Probably....is it cheating???? Yeah...

Is it todays technological reality ?????? ABSOLUTELY
------------------
Steve A
http://www.soundclick.com/stevealtonian



[This message has been edited by Steve A (edited 04-24-2008).]

I couldn't agree more. Amen, Amen, Amen.


chas

Donny, it's really amaising how different we are. You're a generalist/entertainer who reads each audience and delivers what's appropriate. I'm a specialist. People who come to see me know what they're in for. If they don't like it, they need to leave.

Anyone who pulled out a chicken hat at the places I work would be hurt. Pulling an audience member out to join a circle of dancers would cause a riot, and I'd be the first one to participate (read "kick ass").

And, to tell hard line jazz people that what they listen to is boring would generate a lot of ridicule, at the very least.

Most of my people would think you're appealing to the lowest common denominator with mindless rubbish.

Most of your people would think that I'm an arrogant, snobbish misfit who plays junk.

You've been doing what you do for 40 plus years. I've been doing what I do for 52 years, with 9 weeks off.

With you and your croud, it's it's all about the entertainment/enjoyment. With mine, it's all about the music, music history/culture, etc.

Your potential audience is large. Mine is small. My great honor is associations with Ella Fitgerald, Ray Brown, Clark Terry and the like. You and Fran fondly mention Brenda Lee and Frankie Vallie (sp?) (yuck!).

You revel in the feedback you get from your work. I resent the fact that the big portion of my income comes from doing film scores, not live performance.

The good news is, we're both working in a field we love.

I would come see you as a friend, but would never take the time to see your kind of act for any other reason.

Let's make sure we visit when possible in the near future.

And let's ALL resolve to respect the choices others may make. In spite of the differences between us, and we differ on EVERYTHING about this business, I'm glad to know Donny.

And I'm glad we ALL have Synthzone to enjoy.


Russ

This is really a fun thread! I can recall having these conversations 50 years ago with fellow musicians who were always judgmental about other's playing or act. Unfortunately, I was not one of those blessed players with above average talent but I managed to play with a whole lot of them. It always struck me as strange that many of those really gifted players had a hard time making a living in the music profession while guy like me did rather well.

So it goes - do we create music master pieces or do we "entertain"? Nowadays the public just doesn't seem to give a you know what - they just want to be entertained when they attend an event. Truth is, most wouldn't know the difference between a really gifted player and all the rest of us.

Hammer

Well said Russ..........thats the bottom line.

Stay well

Just sounds like more insecurity to me...

I don't know where the trepidation comes from. What was the last decent posted song that got any flack? Who, exactly, has been singled out and slammed here for posting a tune, lately?

You know, in all my time of coming here, the only thing I can remember ever getting lambasted is when someone that tries to come off as a real 'pro' and expert in all things posts examples that were radically different in ability than you would have gathered from their written word.

Since then, many members have posted, and not one of them gets anything other than a pat on the back, a 'well done', and occasionally, a little well meant advice about how to have a go at making it better next time...

Anyone scared of that? Didn't think so... So why the aversion to ILLUSTRATING what you are talking about..?

Look, lots of folk 'talking the talk'. No shortage of that here. But many of the points, for one thing, make little sense without an example. And quite a few have, let's just say, well developed senses of their own abilities. But without an example, just how much stock can you put in their advice and opinions...?

If someone advises you about equipment, playing techniques, arranger operation, etc., wouldn't you like to be able to hear for yourself whether they actually have this so-called knowledge right? I'll also add that just about every other arranger forum DOES have PLENTY of people that post music examples. This is NOT some universal trend. Just here, for some reason...

If other forum's members can summon up the testicular fortitude to display their abilities, warts and all, why are we so testosteronely challenged here?

Maybe it's just that a whole lot of strutting might have to be dialed back (another of our differences with other forums) if you actually had to illustrate it... A ten year old kid could come here and offer seemingly 'expert' advice and we would be none the wiser. And a sixty year old One Finger chord player that just bought his first PSR could do the same. Without some way of finding out whether they can back up what they say, it kind of makes ALL the posts here an exercise in futility.

Unless you actually AGREE with the poster, that is... It basically makes this a WRITER'S forum, not a musicians. Because music is how musicians communicate... They PLAY music, not write about it (that's a critic's job!).

BTW, I know the dig wasn't personal, but for the record, my postings (mostly at Roland-arranger) have ranged from entirely arranger play, live no edits, to original music that the arranger has participated in the orchestrations, to arranger live play that only uses the drums, to SMF's that have all but the B&D muted, to more full arrangements. These are just SOME of the ways you can use an arranger, and I wanted to illustrate them. The singing? Well, I hope most can get past that! On a singer's forum, you'd hope they could get past the PLAYING...!

But there's a LOT of opinion and advice offered here at SZ. In fact, other than to just kibbutz, I come here to LEARN, and trying to do that involves a certain degree of having to find out whether the advice offered is coming from someone I can respect, at least musically. Without playing examples, who do you listen to? The one who crows the most, or the one who's posted examples illustrate they ARE talking from experience?

And, in the meantime, of course, PLENTY of members have posted music here with nary a bad word or destructive comment... So WHY are we using this as an excuse?

Why SHOULD SZ be the ONLY arranger forum where (at least SOME of) it's members are AFRAID to post?

Whenever these discussions come up, hardly anyone ever mentions what defines 'success' for them. The attitude of most of the 'entertainers' is that whatever makes them the most money (they may call it 'pleasing the crowd' or 'keeping them on the dancefloor' or 'number of bookings') is what is important. For them, music is not the primary thing (and that's ok). For others, music is the ONLY thing, the source of their satisfaction, their primary goal. That's ok, too, because they are willing to make some financial concessions (but not musical concessions). Each views the other with suspicion, distrust, and sometimes even anger.

The musician assumes (sometimes falsely) that the 'entertainer' is incapable of playing good music. The 'entertainer' thinks the musician is a snob loser, and can't understand why anyone would deliberately minimalize their employment opportunities in order to play that 'weird' music that nobody likes anyway.

Until we recognize these different attitudes and approaches to the business, we will continue to have these debates with no possibility of a resolution. Still, I'd pay to see Russ do 'Round Midnight' in a chicken hat (I think).

chas

Diki, I understand where you're coming from. For me,however,I think recording anything on an arranger is a waste of time.

I just got the Zoom Chas uses and will record something live this week-end, but he, you and possibly Boo and Bebop will be the only ones who will even be remotely interested. I think posting it on an arranger form would be impolite. There will be no arranger used, and the material will be about as hardline jazz as it gets (piano, electric violin, upright and drums).

It's fine for others to post music created on an arranger here. My use of an arranger, however, is for ONLY those jobs where I have no alternative but to use one.

Always enjoy hearing what others do, however.
And, I appreciate the feedback from you, Chas and others on the soundscore rough Don posted for me a few months back. I don't mind posting the material I have the right to share; it's just not appropriate for this forum. And, with liscensing agreements, there's not that much I can post anyway.

Live stuff will be as far removed from arranger music as it gets.Be glad to send it to you and Chas directly, though, if you're interested. Promise, I wouldn't "chicken" out!


Russ

Quite the merry-go-round we got going here.

Personally, I think posting ANYTHING is still a choice, and a person's reasons for not posting should be accepted...whatever reason or reasons they may be, they are legitimate to that person.

Inferring they are "insecure" or "afraid" is so childish...reminds me of the "I dare you" tactics in a schoolyard.

I say if someone does not want to post, be polite and leave them be.

Ian

Diki (and others),

“Testicular fortitude?“ ….Diki, that was good!

I really have to thank you (Diki and others) for your series of postings here. This is the first time I’ve been able to get a handle on the dynamics that go on in this room. Good for you telling it like it is:

“Lot's of people 'talk the talk', but let's face it. This IS a musician's forum. What good is the 'talk' without the 'walk.”

Now I’m starting to understand why there is NO musical exchange of ideas…it all comes down to human nature. Kind of like the Internet dating sites. You can be anyone you want to be as long as you don’t show yourself!

Still I’ll continue reading because there IS the equipment reports which as you said are enlightening if you use a certain amount of discernment. I’m still trying to digest how you can play to an audience 500 strong using a sub designed for your living room hi-fi set or your computer.

Other side of the coin. EVERYONE brings SOMETHING to the table. A few months back I heard a demo of someone doing a really awful version of Tico Tico. I could have learned a foreign language in the time it took him to complete the song! I was about to put it in the paper shredder when I heard him do an octave shift in the middle of a phrase. That was catchy…I adopted that idea and afterwards made it a point to listen to just about anything because you always pick up something if you’re astute (I even learned from Donny, though it pains me to admit THAT too!).

Next thought: Showering praise on everyone who posts a song! Isn’t this kind of living in the Twilight Zone? If everyone tells everyone else how wonderful they are, then there is no more benchmark to compare them with. Now look what’s happening in our schools. Students are falling so far behind that the only eventual solution was to “shower praise on everyone” and tell then how wonderful they are! Does that make the kid any smarter? It only gives him delirium about his capabilities!

When I was a child, my father came down on me so hard about “not putting on a sterling performance in EVERYTHING I do” that I told myself one day that “no one will ever say that to me again” and I proceeded to learn my music and everything else inside and out. I have to thank him for never patting me on the head and “showering” me with “undeserved praise.” I experienced phenomenal growth after that.

Finally, a few weeks back someone posted a link to a demo. Chas critiqued the tune and tried to offer constructive criticism. I remember thinking someone finally had the nerve to buck the “great job, Joe” routine and explore new territory by suggesting the performance could use some “touching up.” I personally thought Chas offered good, honest advice but, if I remember correctly, he caught H___ for that! And no one backed him up for using his own style of “testicular fortitude!”

Speaking for myself, I always tell people something like “I didn’t play this song to show you how GOOD I am, I played it so you can bring up some suggestions you might have to make it even better! I’ve always found humility to be an unassailable ally! If I had the proper recording equip, I’d certainly post a song…NOT to show my skills but to hear ideas from other musicians on how THEY would play it (or are MY now living in the Twilight Zone?).

John DiLeo’s idea is a good one. Set up a “music room” for the exchange of ideas. Unfortunately, it would probably go bankrupt within a week. I‘m going back to equipment watching!

Lucky

Si, in effect, you are saying that those of us who do not want to post...Chas and myself, for example, are insecure.

Pretty big assumption.

Actually, I did post a few tunes quite sometime ago.

Ian

Oh My! Look what started. I didn't expect it to go crazy, I thought some may get cranky. This might just be the biggest thread I ever created.

Thanks for all the different opinions!
I didn't intend to divide anyone



------------------
God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

And did the sky fall? Did the ground open up? Did legions of Yamaha haters rise to bite you on your butt?

No, they did NOT...

So why the reluctance now? You didn't feel it back then, what changed? To be perfectly honest, I WANT to hear these custom styles of yours. I WANT to hear what a real Yamaha demonstrator can do with the incredible sounds and OS of the current Yamaha's. I want to hear stuff played on Korg PA800's, PA2XPro's, Ketrons, Wersi's, Mediastations.

I want to hear what skill level is needed to be able to play 500 shows a year, to get booked solid in jazz clubs or political rallies... I want to hear how well some of us progress on our new equipment... and whether it actually DOES sound better in their hands than their last arranger.

All I can do now is READ about it. And that, my friends, is NOT the same thing.

Look, in a way, this IS a community of friends, or at least colleagues, and many I would call BOTH. You know what? There isn't a single musician in my area I would not invite to a gig of mine. Whether they would want to come or not, well, that's up to them. But, to be perfectly honest, there is NO-ONE who I would tell 'do NOT come to my gig, do NOT listen to me...'

But that is, in a way, what we are saying to each other. 'You CAN'T listen to me. It wouldn't be appropriate, I don't feel you deserve to, the dog ate my homework, whatever'

So, I'm still curious... Why NOT here, but other forum's members are OK with it?

Look, I'm fine with anyone choosing NOT to... Their choice, and nothing anyone can do about it. But I'd simply like to point out that SOME of the assumptions made about why one shouldn't post here are quite patently false. This is, in fact a very diverse, loving (in a dysfunctional family kind of way ) and interesting bunch of musicians, and it pains me that few of them want to be heard.

This is NOT 'double dog daring' you all. This is a genuine desire to hear WHAT you can do, HOW you do it, and whether it's arranger or kazoo, I don't give a damn...

Anyone that WOULD like to share that still feels unwilling to post publicly, well, my profile lists my email. Send it to me privately if you prefer. But I urge you to reconsider how hostile you think this place is... Sure, we get rambunctious, even testy at times. But we keep talking to each other, no matter what. That's a sign of true friendship, IMO. If I HATE somebody, I just won't talk to them, period. We see so little of that here, I hope some of you reconsider your positions.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-24-2008).]

That's nice, Diki...glad you feel that way.

I'm content to keep things as they are for now.

Ian

I think when someone challenges you to "put up or shut up" that kinds of sets the tone for the reception you can expect from your postings.
As I remember Diki it took quite a bit of prodding for you to post something and there was a few that weren't impressed.
Not because it wasn't good, don't get me wrong, I liked your stuff and I commented on the other forum.
But you were prodded into posting in the middle of a heated discussion and of course once sides have been chosen nobody is gonna back down.
Same with Charles and Ian well I guess all of us at one time or another were told to "put up or shut up"
Ian has sent me some stuff by email and he can send me more anytime he wants I enjoy it.
Charles I'd like to hear your stuff I'm not sure if I'm into hardcore Jazz but I'd sure enjoy the performance.
Same for Capt. Russ if you ever get around to it.
And of course I always love to hear from DonM and Uncle Dave. (I did not purposely leave anyone out)
I always love to hear talented individuals doing what they do. But I can understand why you don't want to post to an adversarial environment.

My usual disclaimer...

Diki,

You can hear some examples of what I do by going to my website at www.travlineasy.com and clicking on listen to the music. It ain't Jazz, but it's what I do. As for some examples of custom, Yamaha styles, you have mail. I think you'll have fun with them, and most are excellent examples of what can be done with style creation programs, both on the keyboard and on the PC.

Enjoy,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary....

I really enjoyed listening to your songs great job! You have such a soothing natural voice combined with excellent playing.
Is that the Psr3000 or S900? I wish more people would post links to their websites also to listen to songs.

Thank You

Thanks John,

Everything was done with the PSR-3000, Crown Cm-311A headset mic and recorded directly to the PC using Acid Pro 4.0.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Firstly, you KNOW I'm not the one going 'put up or shut up'... I'm the one going 'put up', but if you don't, keep posting anyway!

Secondly, my only initial reluctance to post arranger music was I had none to post! At that time, I was hardly EVER using the arranger section other than strictly drums, and that's not what people wanted to hear. So I made a posting at the old G70 forum with a simple bossa done completely OOTB arranger style with OTSs, to help dispel the G70 slamming. As I recall, it was pretty much universally accepted.

The rancor came later, when I posted it a SECOND time during a heated time with Donny, where it got lambasted primarily for not being new, nothing to do with the sound!

And since then, I have posted occasional work, to illustrate different aspects of arranger use (none of which has taken any flack). So, obviously, a little rancor hasn't exactly scarred me!

If I can accept the slings and arrows of public exposure (heck, we do it live every day, why is a forum so much scarier?!), surely some of you can, too?

Diki could it be that when someone offers so much opinions & criticism about arrangers good or bad it logically would be assumed that that person knows what he is talking about & can certainly play as good as his talk? I for one love to listen to other players. Why do people always try to down play the fact that they play in arranger mode? That's where the strength lies in an arranger keyboard isn't it? This whole thread is very confusing if you read it back. What have we really gained from the replies on this? I'm trying to put it all together.

Give up John - the most qualified pyschiatrist couldn't make sense of the complex personalities here...just read and enjoy

Zuki, I am starting to realize what you are saying is very true unfortunately. But I still try to read between the lines and extract what I can in bits & pieces & from doing searches on posts from years gone by too. There is a wonderful wealth of information here on the SZ.

Thanks

A friend of mine, a psychiatrist was walking down the sidewalk with me one day and another psychiatrist was passing by ,and he turned to my friend and said, "Hello."

My friend said to me, "I wonder what he meant by that."

It’s all about “ego,” isn’t it? I read and observe a lot (even when I’m entertaining) and one recurring thing I noticed is that when someone says something or writes something (here, there….anywhere), even if it’s a good idea someone else will feel they have to offer an opposing view or a “superior“ rebuttal to show that they are much smarter…even if they disagree with their OWN view! I’m not sure why this happens but it’s called “the ego takes charge.”

I do it too and I have to catch myself regularly or I’d be here forever posting my thoughts (I don’t write as well as you guys do so it goes slowly for me).

I got into Science of the Mind many years ago and this is what they teach you. How to run your life, your career, even your wife “more efficiently!” The point being that if you can override that ego, there’ll be room for positive info going in and out of the brain, such as the “exchange of musical ideas.”

Trying not to get too deep or it will close this thread down!

Zuki wrote:

“just read and enjoy.”

John wrote:

“I am starting to realize what you are saying is very true unfortunately. But I still try to read between the lines and extract what I can in bits & pieces & from doing searches on posts from years gone by too. There is a wonderful wealth of information here on the SZ.”

Correctamundo again on both counts…especially: “There is a wonderful wealth of information here on the SZ!” A few days ago that’s the decision I made…”read and enjoy” (as Zuki said) unless I have something to post that I think will genuinely help someone. In the meantime, I’m spraying myself down with “anti-ego repellent!”

Hi Zuki,
I think that's what makes this site so entertaining haahaa. The mix of personalities.

best wishes
Rikki

Lucky, after I saw this post just now (yeah, I've been away...) I was all set to reply with great vengeance and furious anger etc etc, but I won't for two reasons.

1. Re-read Diki's reply to your post - says it all and says it eloquently.

2. I've just realised that you may have thought I meant only PLAYING the Midi file - i.e. singing Karaoke style over it. I actually play full 2 handed parts with solos and change instruments (if appropriate) and sing as well as I can (which unfortunately ain't too well *heh*) during each song.

I hope that clears things up for everybody.

are there any minor chords in that nashville thing.
i never heared a country song fron hashville in minor key.


[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 04-30-2008).]

those that use audio loops, arpegiatos, lipsyncing cheat also.
of coarse Arranger keyboard gives users more apportunity to cheat, especially with the Intro, Ending buttons, preprogrammed 'Styles' 2 finger chord recognition and the whole Auto-Accompaniment thing !

You also can use Arranger-keyboard for fair, non-cheating stuff like:
Producing Songs (from sratch), playing live(without using styles)

it doesn't matter what format is the prerecorded material midi, mp3, wave... etc

if it's the backing music music for your playing, it's ok,
but if you're playing with keyboard turned off, and cd-player on, than it's not ok



[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 04-30-2008).]

hellboy44,

To be honest, I'm not sure what you're talking about. What I wrote about MIDI file usage was a blanket statement about whoever "leaves the machine just running." I'm not even sure of what YOU posted about your own musical performance regarding MIDI files. Feel assured my writing had nothing to do with you.

You wrote: "I've been away...) I was all set to reply with great vengeance and furious anger etc etc, but I won't"

Why the defense system bigger than NATO? Is it possible I hit a nerve?

"You wrote: Re-read Diki's reply to your post - says it all and says it eloquently."

Please don't preach to me. I've been entertaining on stage longer than many of you have been playing. I don't believe I got to where I am by not knowing what I'm doing. And I learned a long time ago, to have convictions and state them as I did here.

You wrote: "I've just realised that you may have thought I meant only PLAYING the Midi file - i.e. singing Karaoke style over it. I actually play full 2 handed parts with solos and change instruments (if appropriate) and sing as well as I can (which unfortunately ain't too well *heh*) during each song."

Repeat: I don't even know WHAT you posted, but if you "play full 2 handed parts with solos and change instruments" and "sing as well" then you're doing more than many OMB's do these days. Good for you!

You wrote: "I hope that clears things up for everybody."

I write: "I hope that clears things up for everybody."

P.S. You might want to consider a name change. That's a very agressive moniker!

Lucky

I agree...if a person is playing with the keyboard "off" and/or pretending to play along, then they are a big phony.

Fakes are flakes.

Ian

I see little difference in whether your backing comes from you having prepared it in advance. and you play full two fisted keyboard over the top of it, or you play it from triggering the arranger with your left hand and play ONE fisted over the top of it..!

IN NEITHER of those scenarios are YOU playing everything that comes out. Your contribution is the stuff you play LIVE. Looked at this way, for all but the best arranger players, that's HALF of what you could be playing if you used SMFs...

Now, sure, you can re-harmonize, rearrange, change song structure, all on the fly with an arranger. But, let's be honest with each other... How many, other than the top few arranger players, actually HAVE the knowledge or skill to use chord substitution effectively? Darn few, I'd be prepared to say.

'Ah, but I can change anything I want in the middle of a song', sure you can, but you must be careful... Half the 'cheese' I've heard coming out of arrangers has come from some using this ability poorly, and making on the fly decisions I'm sure they've regretted later! In all fairness, there's only ONE thing the arranger can do that an SMF can't... Cover for YOUR mistakes! I'm sorry guys, but one of the things I hear a LOT of players with arrangers do is screw up the chords, or structure, get lost in the middle, miscount a section, whatever, and the arranger keeps patiently chugging along, making the best of what, in a sequence, would be a total train-wreck! Maybe this is why some refuse to countenance SMF's, in truth! Screw up a sequence, and you are toast!

But, OTOH, arranger SMF players now have Mark/Jump abilities, that allow song restructuring on the fly (used to be an arranger mode exclusive), the Roland's, at least, have their Song Cover abilities, to allow a complete re-voicing of the SMF (change a rock band into a jazz band, for instance), once again, formerly an arranger only ability, and dual sequencers or pretty instant SMF loading can give you the 'medley' ability that used to be another arranger exclusive.

Used carefully, most of what USED to be arranger mode's exclusives now CAN be done, at least a certain way, in SMF mode, and some of it can be improved (FINALLY, you can have bass-lines and other Parts that LEAD the chord changes, not just follow them!). But one thing the SMF gives you is the backbone of being able to play with others... The ability to play well with BOTH HANDS...

Particularly if you are learning on an arranger, or are just getting back into music after a long break, this MIGHT be a skill worth working on. You know, just in case you get an opportunity to play with something OTHER than a machine!

Arranger mode has it's charm, and skill-set, and done well is very effective. But be careful of dismissing the humble SMF. It has powers that many do not realize it could do now, and it DOES give you the opportunity to DOUBLE the live playing that you are actually playing (and trust me, the audience WILL notice that!), and practice up skills that will pay dividends if you ever sit in with a live band...

First of which will be the discipline to learn your tunes correctly... because a live band MIGHT hang around while you miscount a section or play something wrong, but you won't like those raised eyebrows as they do!

Diki.....in reality a Style file is a SMF file. There is nothing wrong with playing SMF songs of which Roland does it best IMO....I have done jobs with 90% SMF all night too & play over the top....it all depends they all have their strong points....just another tool to use.....so If you have on-board Styles/SMF/& Mp3's you pretty much cover all bases ONLY IF THE NAVAGATION between all these modes can be achieved SEPERATLY at the SAME TIME like on a MIDJAY module.