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#232507 - 04/18/08 04:55 PM Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6040
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Ok, Ian. What's the deal. That new KX series of controllers looks really nice but how come the only offer them in 25,49,61,88 keys? What happened to 76? Is that number a jinx over at Yamaha? Curious minds want to know.

chas

correction on post title. "Does Yammy have a problem WITH 76 keys?"

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 04-18-2008).]
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#232508 - 04/18/08 05:49 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Chas,

Perhaps they do.

I do know they make a few 76 note synths/workstations...the Motif XS7 and ES7, but according to what I hear, the 88 note weighted hammer models, the XS8 and ES8, are far more popular.

There isn't a 76 note in the MO series...just 61 note LC and 88 note weighted hammer...and the Mini-MO has 61 only.

Could be they are finding the 76 note keyboards a bit slow selling?

I'm considering a KX8 to use with my PSR-S900...either that, or a P85...the CP-300, at 71 lbs, is much too heavy for me to lug around...even the CP-33 is 40 lbs.

25 lbs (approx) is my limit.

If I'm doing solo piano, 88 weighted is my preference...76 semi-weighted are awful...they work for some, but I want to feel like I'm playing a piano, not a synth.

I play piano every day to keep up my chops and the synth action wouldn't be good for finger strength.

I'm sure there will be much speculation to follow.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232509 - 04/19/08 01:58 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Of course they'll find them slow selling... They don't make them!

Tough to move product that doesn't exist

The majority of Motif 88's are used primarily as stage pianos, the majority of 61's are used in multi keyboard setups. But somehow, Yamaha still manage to make a 76 without going broke.

The trouble with not making a 76 in so many products is that you are forcing those that actually want a 76 to go somewhere else. Brand loyalty is important (or SHOULD be) to any company, and even if profits are slimmer from 76 sales, you are keeping the customer, rather than letting him get snatched up by the competition...

He may never return.

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#232510 - 04/19/08 02:23 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
DanO1 Offline
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Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
I know they offer 76 trombones...
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#232511 - 04/20/08 01:22 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
And I actually have one!

Bought my treasured Yamaha YSL 643 Bb-F back in '74. Still play it every day, and on most of my gigs...

34 YEARS of pro work on one instrument! Now THAT'S value for money!

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#232512 - 04/20/08 03:14 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Of course they'll find them slow selling... They don't make them!

......and even if profits are slimmer from 76 sales, you are keeping the customer, rather than letting him get snatched up by the competition...

He may never return.


Oh, they do make them...just not in every line.

My guess is that the profits are too slim to warrant production...remember we are dealing with a corporation where the bottom line is profit...not "slim profit".

From what I hear, the loss so far to competitors is negligible...76 notes aren't big sellers for anyone.

Beyond 61 notes, it would appear that 88 notes rule the roost.

Remember the Yamaha KX-88 controller?

Yamaha sold far more KX-88s than the 76 note version(KX-76)...in fact the latter is a very rare bird today, whilst the old KX-88 is still used by some players despite being out of production for over 25 years.

Check out live and TV acts...you rarely see any pros using 76 notes keyboards anymore.

I guess they don't wish to compromise...I know I wouldn't.

Anyone needing an instrument with more than 61 notes is most likely going to be playing piano on it, and 76 notes of wimpy semi-weighted action is not going to be acceptable to most, if not all, piano players.

Could be one of the main reasons, in my opinion, that 76 note instruments are not doing so well.

Ian
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#232513 - 04/20/08 04:00 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
kalimero Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Dubrovnik, Croatia
I don't get one simple thing. If 76-keys keyboard is so unprofitable to Yamaha, why don't they discourage their demonstrators (or et least one of them) to use them.

In all official Yamaha demos of Motif line (ES, XS) except Motif Rack, they use 76-key version. They might hook up 76-keys version Motif to the Rack as well, but it would seem strange, and I guess connecting it to Roland controller was out of the question, so they used S-90 ES. :-)

Another strange thing is, producing 88-keys hammer-weighted keyboard version of synths (Yamaha MO-8 and MM-8), and arrangers (Korg Pa-588). What's so good in having weighted keyboard for piano playing only, while having hundreds of other instruments virtualy unplayable because of keyboard?

Although 76-keys are compromise in both directions (less keys and lighter touch then 88, while being longer and heavyer then 61), it still looks better then hammer-wieghted synth, that lets You play piano only (and pads).

Recently, on more then one occasion I saw Yamaha Motif on stage in TV shows (here in Croatia), most of the time it was ES7 (and now XS7), and 88 keys version (ES8) I saw only once or twice when used exclusively for piano playing, and they always had other 76-keys synth for playing non-piano sounds.

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#232514 - 04/20/08 04:26 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I just finished watching an Eric Clapton concert of a few years ago...both keyboard players, Billy Preston and David Sancious were using 88 note keyboards(Billy also had a B-3)...Sancious even did a "Sax" solo (using a breath controller) on his 88 note weighted hammer instrument, so I guess that some are capable of using other sounds with weighted keys.

The sound I find hardest to use on an 88 note weighted action controller/keyboard is organ (slides and smears are difficult)...61 unweighted are perfect for
that technique.

Sure, if you have to use one keyboard for it all, I imagine a 76 note semi-weighted instrument would do...but, it would most definitely be a compromise if your main axe was piano.

I still see far more 88's than 76 note instruments.

Ian
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#232515 - 04/20/08 09:27 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
The entire point is compromise, Ian...

You CAN'T play a full piano part on a 61, and you CAN'T play good organ parts on an 88...

Now, I don't know about you, but just about every single job I play involves BOTH sounds. I can't justify taking two keyboards when one can do both tasks adequately. Hence the 76.

And I'm sorry, but every pro in my area that doesn't play primarily piano on an 88 uses a 76. Yamaha recognize this fact in their 'pro' line, the MotifXS. Sad they don't recognize it on their arranger line.

Oops! Is it Groundhog Day again...?

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#232516 - 04/20/08 10:04 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Now, I don't know about you, but just about every single job I play involves BOTH sounds. I can't justify taking two keyboards when one can do both tasks adequately. Hence the 76.

And I'm sorry, but every pro in my area that doesn't play primarily piano on an 88 uses a 76. Yamaha recognize this fact in their 'pro' line, the MotifXS. Sad they don't recognize it on their arranger line.

Oops! Is it Groundhog Day again...?


Well, Diki, I don't compromise when it comes to piano.

It feels plain AWFUL to play two handed piano on a 76 note semi weighted instrument...but, if you don't mind compromising, hey, that's okay...but I won't.

My little S900 works perfect for arranger play...61 notes are plenty and since Piano is only one of the many sounds I use, the action is perfect.

I don't know much about your area, but in my neck of the woods those who do have to play with one keyboard (especially if they are in a band) are using 88 note workstations or digital pianos ...mainly Roland and Yamaha...of course, these guys ARE piano players first and foremost.

Oh well, whatever works for you.

Ian
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#232517 - 04/20/08 10:00 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Bachus Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6861
All i want to say is that yamaha lost a lot of potentiall customers because of Tyros not having 76 keys version..

They all went for Roland or Korg..
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#232518 - 04/21/08 04:08 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:
All i want to say is that yamaha lost a lot of potentiall customers because of Tyros not having 76 keys version..

They all went for Roland or Korg..



That's a great assumption Bachus...but is it really true?

Perhaps the music dealers are telling you something different from what I've been hearing.

Roland 76 note arrangers are selling very poorly...so maybe it must be Korg that is taking up the slack.

Well, time will tell just how many Korg PA2Xpros are sold...then we will see.

I feel the demand for 76 notes is overstated....except here on SZ, of course, where nothing is ever exaggerated.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232519 - 04/21/08 07:33 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 6861
I think the demand for 76 key arrangers (or even 88 key weighted all in one arranger workstations) is bigger then ever, but only in the top class boards...

Overhere in europe, arrangers have a broader market share then synths..... And i personally can't just imagine that people can work with only 61 keys...after having tasted the possibilities of 76 keys or more... I can effectively have 3 zones on a 76 keys board.. Or even have a better range when playing piano style...

Ever after switching from a 76 key GEM to a 61 key tryos i have been seriously missing those extra keys..

But you might be right Ian... My vision might be tainted because of my own experience, and many people like me stick to 61 keys, because they allways have had 61 keys and don't even realise how 76 keys really makes a differenece
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#232520 - 04/21/08 08:28 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
It will be interesting, Bachus, to see how well the PA2XPro sells...maybe if it does well, Yamaha will make a 76'er on the Tyros-4 or even a Tyros-3 1/2

I like the 61 note S900 because it is not only very light, but it is also quite compact...great for gigging.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232521 - 04/21/08 01:42 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I like the 61 note S900 because it is not only very light, but it is also quite compact...great for gigging.

Ian


As long as gigging doesn't involve playing a full(ish) piano part. Remember, Ian, a LOT of people use SMFs AS WELL as arranger mode. Put a rhythm section behind you that doesn't require you to input the chords, and all of a sudden there's that temptation to play a piano part (or Rhodes, whatever).

Which, of course, if you got yourself a 61 to save you maybe 5 lbs or so (probably the difference between an S900, and an S900 with an NP30 action) and about five inches (difference in width) is completely out of the question. Now, I admire your purity of spirit, and your contention that any piano part MUST be played on a weighted 88, but I've got a sneaky feeling that you probably DO play at least a RH piano pert on your S900 from time to time. Oops! There goes THAT rule!

So, for those that want n arranger, but also want to use SMF's and free the LH from time to time, the 76 is the best tool to be able to do BOTH. It's not the BEST at either, but it's the only thing that can do BOTH.

I am not certain about your shows, but every gig I have ever done since I started using arrangers involves both Piano AND organ parts, sequences, arranger play AND full live play. No one method does it ALL successfully. So, I either take a 61 AND an 88 (apparently, no concern for weight with THAT rig!) or I use a 76. And, apparently, so do a LOT of others, here.

The funny thing is, Ian (well, it's ALL funny, really ), I guarantee, if Yamaha DID make a 76 S900, that's what you would be playing, rather than haul that 88 around. Just like us, you would admit it wasn't perfect (oops! sorry... Forgot who I was talking to! ), but it would be the best compromise between the two.

I can only hope Yamaha help you out of your dilemma, Ian, and you can join the rest of us 'home keyboard' players with more options in our playing style...

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#232522 - 04/21/08 06:09 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
As long as gigging doesn't involve playing a full(ish) piano part.


It usually doesn't Diki...I always gig using arranger mode.

The 88 note piano is for my personal stuff and for keeping my chops up...I don't see me taking one on a gig in the near future, unless it calls specifically for some solo piano...that's why the P85 is so appealing...it's less that 25 lbs and has graded hammer action...not a problem if I needed to take it with me.

Just think...both my keyboards together weigh about the same as your G70...and I have the benefits of SA and mega voices...plus 88 notes of terrific hammer action IF I choose.

Not bad...eh?

IF S900 had been made with 76 keys, I doubt if I'd be using it for solo piano...semi-weighted just don't feel right...that's not that hard to understand, is it?

I'm glad for you that your G70 does it all, at least for your needs...so rejoice with me in the fact that the S900 does it all for me as well.

Ian the Contented
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232523 - 04/21/08 06:22 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
It usually doesn't Diki...I always gig using arranger mode.


Kind of makes those sequencers and audio file playback features equally useless, then, doesn't it..?

Why don't you try to get Yamaha to drop THOSE features, too, if their feature set is supposed to be what YOU would use, only...?

Or do you think that the scream of indignation by those that DO use them for Yamaha to return them would be harder to ignore than the noise being made by the MANY that would use a 76 if they made one?

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#232524 - 04/21/08 06:33 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Kind of makes those sequencers and audio file playback features equally useless, then, doesn't it..?

Why don't you try to get Yamaha to drop THOSE features, too, if their feature set is supposed to be what YOU would use, only...?



I like it when you're on a roll.

Yes, my G70 laden friend...the S900's sequencer and audio recording are wonderfully useful to me...I make CDs with them...great for promotion.

They are truly terrific features...that's what makes the S900 such a great bang for the buck.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232525 - 04/21/08 07:36 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
76 keys is a compromise for playing piano parts, no doubt about it. You would be missing a whole octave worth of keys i.e. 12 extra that are on an 88 key keyboard. Playing piano parts on a 76 key semi-weighted keybed is a compromise also, especially if you've been accoustomed to fully weighted keys. It is a compromise Ian, as Diki stated also, but least it "is" an 'option' with Korg and Roland, who apparently seem hell bent on providing their customers with other choices in arrangers than just 61 keys even if it means, God forbid, that their bottom line might take a small hit because of it. It's what they call in the business world as putting the needs of your customers as top priority and above everything else, including your "bottom line". I know you are unfamiliar with the term because you work for a company who has indoctrinated you into their financial corporate policy and belief system which is survival above all and at all costs and the customer be damned type of mentality. I for one am glad Roland and Korg have chosen a different 'path' to meet their customers expectations and needs and give them what they want i.e. a 76 key option, for the simple reason that there are many of their customers who have a strong desire for and need 76 keys and who won't settle for a mere 61 regardless of the features or sounds..

Getting back to the question as to 76 keys being a compromise: yes, it is a compromise, but semi-weighted is better than nothing especially when the manufacturer in question doesn't provide an 88 key mid or high end arranger option either i.e. Yammie Central no less.

Although the 76 key may be semi-weighted they are usually substantially lighter than their 88 key cousins and narrower as well, which makes for easier manuvering and placement inside a vehicle, or on stage for that matter. There are other benefits of 76 keys over 88 keys as well, like costing less for one.

When one company so arrogantly chooses to snub a good portion of their customers and/or fan base and relegates them to either 61 keys or 'nothing' can you therefore see why there may be so much rankle among so many because of what they perceive as Yamaha's bottom line driven 'financial' incentives with total disregard to their customer base and/or potential customers? Okay, maybe you don't Ian. Nevertheless, that ever present reality is still staring you and Yamaha in the face however you or Yamaha wish to deny it or say it isn't of any relative consequence. Don't be too sure my friend.

Best,
Mike

PS: It has been estimated that up to 80% of the population cannot adequately handle or properly appropriate negative input or feedback. I hope you are not in that vast percentage of population Ian and I apologize if I have somehow offended you in any way. More importantly, I hope your Boss isn't in that category either because ultimately these comments and feedback are not directed at you personally but rather at your Boss who is headquartered in Japan. You are just the punching bag that has been given and bestowed upon us by your superiors and we're really sorry that you have to take the brunt of the blows as the go-between of there original intention and ultimate destination - i.e. Yammie Central. We do thoroughly appreciate and enjoy your company though and hope you continue to stick around.

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-21-2008).]
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#232526 - 04/21/08 08:52 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Wow! Makes me look like a Yamaha lover, doesn't it, Ian?

Mind you, I an QUITE sure that NONE of Ian's bosses have in any way whatsoever encouraged him to come here and 'take one for the team'. He seems perfectly happy to take it on the chin for no other reason than sheer bloody mindedness. Perhaps an admirable Canadian trait... who knows?

It's pretty obvious that Yamaha Japan would not choose a part time demonstrator of arrangers from a small area of Canada, and a user of their middle of the line arranger series, no less, as their main spokesman to the arranger community. Although sometimes he makes it SEEM like he is speaking for them, and knows insider secrets of the Yamaha Illuminati that we mere plebes will never fathom, the truth is, just like everyone else here, he is merely speaking his OWN opinion. And, truth be told, has no more FACTUAL knowledge of WHY Yamaha make corporate decisions than you and I.

So keep a tablet of salt handy for his posts. I sure do...

But he sure seems to ENJOY being our whipping boy, doesn't he?

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#232527 - 04/22/08 03:37 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by keybplayer:
We do thoroughly appreciate and enjoy your company though and hope you continue to stick around.

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-21-2008).]


Certainly I do intend to stick around Mike...if only to read more of your exercises in wordiness.

Long and dead-end posts like yours remind me of a great Cape Breton saying...in Gaelic, "Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim."...in English, "Where the stream is shallowest, it is noisiest."

You should try directing your tedious posts to someone who might take them seriously...I don't anymore...and your ineffective attempts to kick me in the ass prove only one thing...that I am ahead of you...invidia is a cruel taskmaster,

So many words....so little substance...my, you really must love to read your own posts...too bad you're the only one that understands them.


I certainly can "adequately handle or properly appropriate negative input or feedback"...but it has to be from someone I respect and who actually knows how to express it...you presently aren't in either category.

Sorry if my directness offends you, but if you can dish it out, you surely must be able to take it.

Ian

PS...Judging from your comments about playing piano on a 76 note semi-weighted keyboard, you obviously aren't serious about your piano playing...that's IF you do play piano....perhaps not.

AND...if Yamaha isn't makin' what YOU want...buy elsewhere...get a Korg or Roland or a Mediastation...nobody is going to be mad at you or miss you...least-ways not me, and certainly not Yamaha.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-23-2008).]
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#232528 - 04/22/08 04:04 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But he sure seems to ENJOY being our whipping boy, doesn't he?



No problem, my diminutive buddy...I can handle it...even the more obnoxious(heavy on the "noxious" part) posters like Mike, are of little consequence in my comfortable and peaceful world.

It's easy to see neither of you are anywhere close to being content with your lot in life...hence the overly long, boring and arrogant posts.

I have a suspicion you were both picked on when you were children...hence the constant picky-pickyness of most of your posts.

You have to get a life, guys...please!

Perhaps you could work as a team...like Mutt and Jeff or Abbott and Costello...Dumb and Dumber?

Just joking.

Peace to you both...you surely need it.

Ian

PS... yes, Diki...my job with Yamaha is small and relatively unimportant...at least in your estimation...but, then again, what you do means very little to me.

I am quite content with the work I do...Yamaha is a great company, and has stood by me through some difficult times.

Yamaha is composed of very hard working and compassionate people, and I'm proud to be associated with the company.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-22-2008).]
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#232529 - 04/22/08 08:45 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2428
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Well... Interesting conversation..
I just ( 3 weeks now) bought a PA2XPRO.. WOW, I love it. 76 keys AND the great quality of the keybed itself is one reason I got it. It is a compromise to an 88... BUT it's geat weighting and feel is pretty darn good. Lots of others too. I have my Tyros 2 (basically new) now for sale. Don't get me wrong the T2 was super and had some super sounds...styles, and I enjoyed it very much. But for me the PA2 is a better PRO quality board. It also has several features I have asked Yamaha to provide in the area of controlling external sound modules, real sliders, touch screen, MIDI functions etc. that the T2 doesn't. Yamaha did not listen. They don't care about me. I'm nobody to them. True I may be looking for some more advanced things the way I use it. I have a full 76 note MIDI keyboard on the bottem (lower) that fits like a glove and I use a 13 note pedel board. Also I control my Kurzweil sound module INCLUDING bank/program change right from the PA2 performances ad song book entrys.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I own a small company, if I didn't listen to my customers, try to get them what they want/need and take great care of them, instead of giving them what I want them to have... I would be gone. But that's a disadvantage of a small CO. vs a super Corp....or is it?

Lee
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Lee S.

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#232530 - 04/22/08 10:13 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by leeboy:
It also has several features I have asked Yamaha to provide in the area of controlling external sound modules, real sliders, touch screen, MIDI functions etc. that the T2 doesn't. Yamaha did not listen. They don't care about me. I'm nobody to them.


Well, Lee...did you actually ask Korg for the sliders, touch screen, or MIDI functions or did they just happen to be on the instrument when you got it?

Did you actually contact Yamaha and ask for these features?

Remember, each manufacturer has their own approach to doing things(which they believe is best)...if you don't like how they do things, you can always go elsewhere...which is what you have done.

Good for you...wise move.

I'm glad you're happy with your purchase...the PA2XPro seems to be a great instrument, although I honestly haven't had a chance to try one.

The local dealer only carries Yamaha and Roland arrangers.

A bloomin' pity.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232531 - 04/22/08 03:52 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Hey, Ian... Sorry, my post wasn't meant to diminish what you do in any way, merely to point out to those that go around ASSuming that what you say, and your opinions, are in any way an official communication from Yamaha (as that prior post seemed to do) or a statement of their official position.

You are always the first to point this out, but somehow the point seldom gets through, does it!

Let's face it, anyone doing this at Yamaha's bequest would be pushing the T2 primarily, not their lower models! We BOTH work and play in little backwaters (I don't worry about that!), so it wasn't meant as a slight. How could it be, if I am in the same position..? There's no bitterness towards you personally, you just tend, because you DO jump in with a 'pro-Yamaha' opinion on just about ANY thread (Yamaha related or not ), to get a lot of the flack and bitterness that is really MEANT for Yamaha.

We're sorry for that, but at times, you DO seem to relish it, in good humor...

Trust me, my recuperating friend, what I posted wasn't meant as a put-down, simply as an acknowledgment of your 'non-official' Yamaha booster stance. I thought you were unfairly singled out in that post, and sought to address it, but I obviously threw the baby out with the bathwater....

Neither of us back off much in our posts to each other, and that's a good thing, as long as we BOTH know it's in a friendly ribbing mode. But occasionally, one or the other (or sometimes BOTH) will get a bit carried away and leave a bad taste... But I know that it's in good faith, and I hope you remain feeling the same way...

Sorry if this one upset you. It wasn't meant to (I THOUGHT there were enough smilies! ). We BOTH toil along in obscurity, and, as much as we both love our particular choices of arrangers, both of us only speak our personal opinions. I represent Roland Corp. as much as you represent Yamaha Corp.

As fans, NOT official spokesmen!

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#232532 - 04/22/08 04:30 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Hey, Diki...I'm not one for taking this forum too seriously...you know that quite well by now.

But neither of us enjoy a disrespectful comment even when it's handed to us followed by an army of smileys...and it's hard not to respond with more of the same.

That's generally how things get out of hand on SZ(and other forums) and it's too bad when that happens as a lot of good information gets overshadowed by a usually silly slap fest that no one really wins.

Whether an individual feels that Yamaha is good or bad means diddly squat to me...I just don't care...it is not my concern.

But, through it all, I am enthusiastic about the company because I know it at a level that most of you don't...and so I am loyal.

I did feel that Mike's post was a tad disrespectful, but it is more a reflection of his accumulated dissatisfactions with himself than it has to do with me...and that's something he has to deal with on his own.

Thanks for your post and I'll conclude by saying that you should know me well enough by now to realize that the only way I would be somebody's "whipping boy" is if I'm holding the whip.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232533 - 04/22/08 04:45 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Diki,

Regarding recuperation...I did get a bit of disappointing news today...I had to cancel my Mother's Day gig at my old haunt...doctor's orders...after two major surgeries within a year, he is a bit wary of me doing any lifting at this point in my recovery...yes, even the little S900 is too heavy.

He figures sometime after the end of June would be a more realistic starting point.

I'm quite disappointed as I miss playing immensely....doing demos is not the same.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232534 - 04/22/08 04:50 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Cool...

I certainly hope this isn't going to stop you from trolling around and getting a dig in at Roland whenever you can...

I need all the humor I can get, these days!

I've got a nasty feeling I am going to be able to get a dig in on the T3 LONG before you ever get a chance to flame the G80, though...

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#232535 - 04/22/08 04:55 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Diki,

Regarding recuperation...I did get a bit of disappointing news today...I had to cancel my Mother's Day gig at my old haunt...doctor's orders...after two major surgeries within a year, he is a bit wary of me doing any lifting at this point in my recovery...yes, even the little S900 is too heavy.

He figures sometime after the end of June would be a more realistic starting point.

I'm quite disappointed as I miss playing immensely....doing demos is not the same.

Ian



Sorry, my last post was before I saw this one...

So sorry to hear this. I would be climbing the walls by now under the same circumstances...

Can't you find a little grommet to help you move things? Some kid that might like to move a bit of gear to get to hang out at the master's shoulder and learn a few things?

Even a kid could move that PSR... It was designed for them, after all..! (Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one )

And then there are those plastic plate speakers, surely the doctor won't object to those? Bring your own hamster, though...

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#232536 - 04/23/08 07:40 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3714
Loc: Motown
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Oh, they do make them...just not in every line...

Check out live and TV acts...you rarely see any pros using 76 notes keyboards anymore. I guess they don't wish to compromise...I know I wouldn't.

Anyone needing an instrument with more than 61 notes is most likely going to be playing piano on it, and 76 notes of wimpy semi-weighted action is not going to be acceptable to most, if not all, piano players.


Ian, I think you finally turned the light on in my head regarding this wornout discussion. If I was a REAL pro playing stage concerts and such - or even playing regularly for mucho dinero - I'm pretty sure I would be carting an 88 and a 61 of something or the other.

The 76 keyboards seem to be a convenient compromise for some of us in less than perfect situations. That doesn't reduce the argument that there should be a niche for 76's, but now I certainly understand the 88 argument better.
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#232537 - 04/23/08 11:44 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
But you can't make the argument for a lightweight AND easily transported rig, AND insist that you use an 88 AND a featherweight 61...

And, let's face it, if you WERE a 'real' pro, at least in Ian's definition, you wouldn't be playing an arranger at all! You'd be playing a big old stage piano/WS in a live band...

You know, Ian... I am tired of all this 'arranger-bashing'. Are you saying that arranger players are not 'pro'. That you have to play an 88 or a multi keyboard rig to be considered one? That you have to be on TV in a live band?

No, OF COURSE you are not...

I just thought I'd get in on the idée fixe of the week...

Mind you, I might bring up the fact that just about every 'pro' in my area, if they are NOT playing an 88 stage piano (no arranger 88's in my area) are playing a 76, whether WS or arranger...

Weird, isn't it?

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#232538 - 04/23/08 12:44 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Yes, a light weight and easily transportable rig...that would be a 25 lb P85 piano(or equivalent), and a 61 note 25 lb S900...I'd set them up in an "L" configuration....piano on the right.

If I was in a band, I'd still want two keyboards...but I'd set up differently...one above the other...and I'd replace the arranger with a B3 clone(XK-1 probably)...then I could use the second keyboard as another organ manual if I wanted.

That's pretty light..and the extra stand would be negligible...using lightweight cases both would easily fit in my Honda Accord.

BUT, since most of my playing involves ONLY arranger,(in arranger mode...auto accompaniment) the 61 notes are just perfect for my needs.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232539 - 04/23/08 01:18 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
But also, 100% arranger mode ALL the time is about the only time when a 61 IS sufficient for a gig...

How many of us play ONLY in that mode? Not many, by the number of requests for MP3 players, dual sequencers, etc. that get tacked onto your 'pure' arranger.

Live band? You'd take TWO keyboards. SMFs or MP3 (if you used them)? You'd take TWO keyboards...

A LOT of us want just one. And there is ONLY one choice if you do do more than just play in arranger mode. A 76.

The numbers in the poll showed just HOW different many, if not most, of the members here feel about this issue from you, Ian...

But, of course, you are right and we are all wrong, aren't we? We must be idiots for wanting a smaller, lighter, more easily transportable rig than an 88 AND a 61. And the larger stands, more wiring, and MIDI issues between the two (wouldn't you like to trigger the arranger in pianostyle mode from the 88?), a mixer, blah blah blah..!

Oh, hold on a minute... you are the one touting the PSR BECAUSE it is smaller, lighter, and more transportable...!

Once again, you want it BOTH WAYS....

ANYTHING to avoid that recognition of how useful a 76 could be, huh? Doesn't all this spin make you dizzy?

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#232540 - 04/23/08 01:45 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
And there is ONLY one choice if you do do more than just play in arranger mode. A 76.



But...I only play my S900 in arranger mode.

It means nothing to me what others use...that's them, not me..I don't have to please anyone else but me.

You need a 76 note arranger...I don't.

You lug around a big heavy keyboard...I don't.

You make money playing...so do I.

Different approaches...but the same result.

Simple, eh?

Gee...I sure miss playing.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232541 - 04/23/08 02:12 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3714
Loc: Motown
Well you two... let me squeeze a few words in here. I have the E-60 arranger which I use for styles and SMF's. Stacked above it is my XK-1. The organ sounds on the E are also good enough to use and work effectively with the XK-1 for double manual stuff without having to midi up.

Just boasting ...
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#232542 - 04/23/08 02:20 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
Well you two... let me squeeze a few words in here. I have the E-60 arranger which I use for styles and SMF's. Stacked above it is my XK-1. The organ sounds on the E are also good enough to use and work effectively with the XK-1 for double manual stuff without having to midi up.

Just boasting ...


Yep, that's a cool set up...show off!!

That XK-1 must be a real joy to play...I envy you...it's got the B-3 nailed.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-23-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232543 - 04/23/08 03:43 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3714
Loc: Motown
Thanks Ian,

The only problem right now is... I think the trio is pretty much dead. We have no work and the future doesn't look good for us either. I must decide if I want to look for another group, go solo or hang it up. Building new clientele is not something I look forward to.
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#232544 - 04/23/08 05:31 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41891
Cass....Hang it up? What? go SOLO my man & dont look back there's a whole wide open world for ya to perform at....if you need suggestions talk to me, Gary, Zuki, Beakybird, Fran, Dave, Don M, Eddie, Scott Yee, Bill C & many more OMB acts...we'll get ya going! But quit is never a good option in my book.

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#232545 - 04/23/08 11:06 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Yeah... and the hell with playing music with other people, anyway. What did other musicians ever do for YOU, anyway?

Other than teach you how to play, how to interact with others musically, and show you stuff you would have NEVER thought of yourself... But hey, f*ck 'em. You've got an arranger...!

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#232546 - 04/24/08 06:12 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41891
Yes Diki SOLO work baby .....is what many people here love to do why knock it?....& most have performed 20 years or more with other people, bands, and what have you & come from good musical stock. Yes yes YES thank goodness for arrangers, & just because very good players CAN play arrangers as a OMB act is a blessing versus all the BS that goes on with bands in today's day & age. Sure there's a place for bands .......but now we have choice something we didn't have years ago before computers in music. Personally I wouldn't want to ever go back to playing with others after doing & managing, & directing it for 25 years. OMB is my thing now & has been very successful for the last 17 years & I look forward to making my act better every day & arrangers let me be creative enough to do that. Sorry for teh rant but I will defend OMB playing to the hilt when I hear or read a "DIS"...sorry I gotta run to another double with my OMB today, Oh Gee, was I supposed to put a smiley in there tongue & cheek?

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#232547 - 04/24/08 11:19 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Donny, it isn't that I'm putting down solo work (do it myself from time to time), it mainly the tone of GLEE that it is often recommended with that irks me.

I have usually considered that HAVING to work solo 100% of the time is basically a tacit admission of the fact that you CAN'T get work in a combo, so at least for me personally, I don't consider it quite the 'step up' that you hear it described here as...

Once again, I remind everybody this is the GENERAL arranger forum, not some OMB site, so please don't get upset when alternative views get aired. There are quite a few here that consider playing in an ensemble the HIGHER achievement, not the cast-off remnants of your musical education that the OMBs would have you believe...

It's a great way to make MONEY... but not necessarily the best way to make MUSIC. I guess it kind of depends on what your priorities are.

What is the smiley for 'dead serious'?

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#232548 - 04/24/08 11:24 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
BTW, only got a single with my duo today but have doubles with a four piece on Friday and Saturday (that makes more than I get as a solo!) and my duo picked up 14 engagements in the last two days...

What is the smiley for 'brass in pocket'?

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#232549 - 04/24/08 12:43 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 41891
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
BTW, only got a single with my duo today but have doubles with a four piece on Friday and Saturday (that makes more than I get as a solo!) and my duo picked up 14 engagements in the last two days...



Diki I'm glad you understanding both view points..and at the rate your booking someday you might catch up to Zuki & Beaky The mere fact that an Arranger KB is SUPER VERSATILE is its power also. & that is what makes all this argumentative discussion so frequently happen. So many use the arranger for so many things & everyone thinks their right. They just might be "FOR THEM" personally.....but its the flexibility & personality of teh musician who uses it & how & where & with who which is where the Arranger KB rises above many other pieces of gear for sure.

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#232550 - 04/24/08 02:04 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Well, I guess I just hoped everyone would remember that I DO use an arranger for solo work, as well as using it for other things. It would make assuming that I'm slamming the OMB's a bit harder to do... Oh well

Diversity, musically and in the 'process' is what I personally think makes us continue to grow as we get older. I haven't yet got to the point where I consider music strictly as a form of income, to me, it's still hopefully an ART, and one that overwhelmingly (other than here) is practiced by ensembles. You COULD go out and watch a guy wave a baton at a CD player, but it wouldn't be 'listening to an orchestra', even if there were software (which there is!) to make the CD follow him...

Likewise the OMB. It's the FACSIMILE of music, except for what you actually play (not conduct). And while I WILL use it from time to time, I don't pooh-pooh the legitimate performance of music (you know, where EVERYTHING is being performed live ), and crow about how many NH gigs I can get by performing with machines. No offense to Zuki, or anyone who plays those venues at that pace (good for you!), but you won't find ONE artist who's work you cover, who's music you admire, who's playing you try to emulate, that would consider doing that as a full time career.

It's a JOB.

Some of us want to paint the Mona Lisa, and some of us want the contract to paint a block of apartments. Both of us use brushes and paint... But the apartment painter will usually work more, and make more money in his lifetime.

But who is the ARTIST?

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#232551 - 04/24/08 02:06 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I have usually considered that HAVING to work solo 100% of the time is basically a tacit admission of the fact that you CAN'T get work in a combo, so at least for me personally, I don't consider it quite the 'step up' that you hear it described here as...



Diki,

I hope you meant that this applies to you, and not to the many players on this forum who play solo arranger 100% of the time, and who are more than capable of playing in a combo...but CHOOSE not to.

I consider solo arranger playing neither a "step up" or a "step down" but rather a "step in the right direction" for many keyboard players that can manage to perform solo and make a good living at it.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232552 - 04/24/08 11:02 PM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Always the talk about making a living, seldom a word about making music...

There ARE some here that, no matter WHO called up and offered a post in a good live band, would turn it down. There are some here that always recommend playing solo, even to those who actually LIKE playing with others. There are some here that haven't played anything but solo for ages. There are those that 'never look back' and appreciate their band experiences as anything other than a pain they are glad to have cast off.

And then there's me...

And, I suspect, quite a few others who consider music making as more than a job, and other musicians as more than competition, and making music WITH something other than a machine as one of life's great pleasures.

I can only hope...

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#232553 - 04/25/08 04:30 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10597
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Always the talk about making a living, seldom a word about making music...


Making a living is a terrific by-product of making music.

I first played arranger at home, just for the sheer joy of having a back-up band "on call" at any time I wished to perform.

And, basically, that's how I got into playing an arranger professionally...some people heard what I could do with it, and I got hired to play some gigs...I didn't look for it...it came my way.

The Yamaha thingy happened much the same way..I didn't look for it...I was asked.

I still play for the joy...and money is never the bottom line, although it is important now that I do music full time.

I still do sessions with some good buddies who play guitar, Saxophone, and keyboards...it makes a difference, to be sure. I always learn something from these collaborations.

AND...I still enjoy playing piano...again mostly for my own pleasure, and to keep up my chops.

Lately, because of restrictions imposed by my Doctor, I'm focusing on making some CDs, purely for my own amusement.

The music will always come first to me...I can't see that changing.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#232554 - 04/25/08 11:12 AM Re: Does Yammy have a problem 76 keys?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Yes, Ian... that's very much how I feel about things, and it is great to know that you actually look forward to playing with other musicians AS WELL as enjoying playing your arranger solo.

Would that others could see that, too. Play 100% with an arranger, and your only collaborator is a machine. Domo arigoto, Mr. Roboto....! (Domo! - - - Domo! )

I hope your recuperation speeds along so you can get back to playing out, either solo or with friends... Just remember, friends will carry your gear, your arranger will insist on you carrying HIM!

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