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#231343 - 04/07/08 10:21 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
btweengigs Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2066
Loc: Florida, USA
Gain staging is not all that complicated. It simply coordinates volume mixes between your keyboard, mixer (if you use one) your mic and the Bose volume controls, which on Model 1 is a very basic remote with eq, channel volume and master volume controls.

For instance, without gain staging you could be red-lining on your keyboard but not on the Bose creating distortion prior to attaining the total output volume you want.

I can't speak for Model II which comes with the really cool T1 mixer, but on model 1 of the L1, there are 99 presets to choose from. Not all presets contain data yet, but there are plenty and a guide that comes with the unit recommending certain presets for specific instruments and brands/models of mics.

Shortly after I got my Model 1, Bose came out with another version of the presets, which I downloaded from their website and installed into the power stand. I have found four presets that I really like for my keyboard and vocals...and choose between... depending on the stage and room conditions I am playing on and in.

Okay...I know this sounds foreign to those who have been using conventional systems since their Garage Band Days. And, I am not saying it is everyone's cup of tea. But, for me and many I know who are using either of the models, Bose has created a system that, IMO, is superior to any conventional system I have used --- sound-wise, weight-wise, looks-wise...and has a smaller footprint for playing tight areas, decreasing liabilities from folks tripping on tripod stands. Easy to set up. Easy to transport. 180 degree sound dispersion. Feedback resistant. And, no need for floor monitors.

I'm not even sure why I am writing this. It would be okay with me if none of my competition ever got the Bose. But some have and all but one love it. The one guy who doesn't is a KJ guy who went overboard, bought two units and four subs...didn't take the time to learn the ins & outs, read the manual or ask questions of their amazingly helpful techs on their website... and thinks it has to be as LOUD and in stereo just as his conventional system is up on stage.

Since it is so different, I highly recommend you try before you buy...or take advantage of the 45-day return policy offered by Bose...and maybe GC...not sure about GC.

Follow the Gain Staging instructions. Experiment with the presets. And as silly as this sounds, when hooking up the sub, be sure to twist the "speak-on" connection at the power stand and the sub until it clicks. Even some of the sales guys at GC have been known not to do that and lose a sale because there was "no bottom end".

Yeah...I am hyped about Bose. But, I shall refrain from any more preaching. It is not the only good system out there...and certainly not perfect for everyone.
Eddie

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#231344 - 04/07/08 10:28 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
btweengigs Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2066
Loc: Florida, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
ITs only 300 watts so if it were to power a band I would suggest and it seems each player has their own system,


A quick correction: The power stand contains three 250 watt amps, one of which is dedicated to the sub. So while it has a total of 750 watts, I think I read it is rated at 1400...but I am not a watt expert and don't really care as long as it covers the small and large rooms I play.

Eddie

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#231345 - 04/08/08 11:34 AM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Well, no offense, but gain staging is something you have to do for ANY PA... Why does it make so much reported difference to the SOUND if you aren't red-lighting it? There seems to be a lot of anecdotal post about people that didn't like it, and the response is always 'well, he didn't gain stage it right'.

Which, apart from the distortion (which out to be apparent) ought not to affect the TONE of the PA, the perceived EQ balance. Why is this gain sensitive? My conventional PA sounds exactly the same at any gain setting short of outright clipping.

Flat is flat, no red light means no distortion... Why is it any more complicated than that?

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#231346 - 04/08/08 04:19 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Diki, I think what's being referred to is two things.

1. Gain staging to optimize the total output/volume of the system.

I remember my first few times with the Bose. I would run out of steam i.e. not be able to go very loud and very little headroom (I thought great, this damn system IS just an underpowered computer speaker system!!)

Then I Trimmed each channel correctly and could run things just as loud as I needed.

2. T1 Settings.

The mixing desk can be a tricky little beast at first - LOTS of options (which really means just more control over things, fortunately) and lots of presets. e.g. every channel has an optimized EQ setting for commonly used industry standard mikes and equipment.

For example:
I could set up Channel 1 for an SM-58, Channel 2 for MP3 playback (and several settings within THAT just for different types of music playback - soft/loud etc) Channel 3 Could be for Guitar FX/Amp Modeling (it even has specifics for things like a Line 6 Pod) Channel 4 could be for Keyboards.

So that's the output and tone optimization you can and should go through.

Hope that helps explain things.
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#231347 - 04/08/08 06:51 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14138
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
The Bose L1 is 750-watts RMS, 1,500-watts peak-power, of which 500-watts is dedicated to the tower, while 250-watts is dedicated to the subwoofer.

Coming from the old school of conventional sound systems, it took me a couple days to get used to not blowing my ear-drums out while performing. When the L1 sounds loud to you it's probably too loud for your audiences. Different concept, but you must keep in mind that it's not a conventional sound system.

As for the volume staging, I've always been a bit of a stickler for reading the instructions, step-by-step, and doing this with the equipment at my side. By doing this I was able to optimize the sound system and learned quite a bit.

Diki is spot on with his asessment of setting up a conventional sound system. However, with the L1 it is a totally different ball game. I know of a couple performers that did not set up their systems per the intstruction manual and they were disappointed with the results. In one instance I spent quite a few minutes, adjusted the system per the manual's instructions and he was amazed at how wonderful the system sounded. In another instance the performer kept trying to do things the way he did for the past several years and did not adhere to the system requirements. He sold the system and purchased something else.

As Eddie, DonM and I have said on many occasions--"This is not for everyone!" I've owned and tried so many sound systems it boggles my mind. For MY purposes, and MY audiences, the Bose L1 is the best thus far. Expensive? Not really. Especially when you consider how much money I've spent over the past several decades in sound systems that I was never really that happy with, and the list of those is quite extensive.

I guess my best meaure of sound quality is the responses from both my audiences, and my spouse--a woman who after nearly a half century of nuptual bliss has absolutely no qualms about expressing her opinions to me. If she doesn't like what she hears she tells me in no uncertain terms. She LOVES the Bose L1. So does my audiences.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
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PSR-S950, Bose L1 Compact, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, Morgan 33 Out Island Sailboat, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#231348 - 04/08/08 07:15 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
That's the key. Many using conventional PA's are stuck on "is it loud enugh?" and "IS it Stereo?" Those are the two major hurdles is the PA paradigm one has to jump.

Stereo is not good in a room where there are people sitting outside the sweet spot. The others will hear the left or right side of the music directly and other side coming of the far wall a few milliseconds later...Can you say MUD? Discrete panning makes this even worse. Also the dispersion area is a lot narrower and focused in equal amounts up, and down causing people to hear the whole mix in reflections off the floor and ceilings (which the Bose does not do)Again, not clear.

For those reasons people usually say the Bose sounds "clear" and they can hear themselves talk AND the Music becasue theres are no harsh hot spots. People on the sides are not asking to turn it up while people in the front are asking to turn it down. Of course the performer has no idea what they hear becasue he is using a monitor that is sending reflections off the ceiling and back wall.....All the sound waves bouncing around the room becasue the system has to be LOUD enough ti fill the room cause MUD and are eliminated with the BOse becasue the sound is evenly dispersed in a 180 degree area. Ironically, You can actually play louder with the Bose becasue you don't have all these reflections to deal with. Clarity and Volume. The Holy Grail of a good PA Set up and mixer. Clarity in the ROOM. not just coming from the system.

I can walk around the room and not really hear the "source" of the sound. The precise directionality of conventional PA systems is eliminated as well as monitors.

If a club owner passes us over because of the Bose, I would rather not play in his establishment because he just wants "loud" He equates big speakers as loud......
We don't do "loud" anymore. I have seen jaws drop looking around for the "PA" when my wife kicks in

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-08-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-08-2008).]
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#231349 - 05/18/08 06:18 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
So, Mr. Creely COULD have said something like:

I feel the Bose PAS and it's performance cannot be compared to the JBLs (or other sound reinforcement brands) for the following reasons....

Or

Bose as a Company doesn't measure up to the standards I expect in my line of work because...

Or

Bose is considered by myself and many of my colleagues as unsatisfactory compared to many other manufacturers as far as.....


but all he said was:

"The JBL VRX should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Bose. The JBL is a serious speaker, and bose is a joke in live PA"

Do I have a problem with him (or anyone) criticizing the Bose?

No - as I've said clearly before - no (and neither should anyone else) but I do have a problem with an offhand derogatory and non specific remark that has naturally offended people on this forum (me for one) and I don't think it's asking too much for him to discuss it rationally - or....is it?
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#231350 - 05/18/08 07:03 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by hellboy44:
I do have a problem with an offhand derogatory and non specific remark that has naturally offended people on this forum (me for one) and I don't think it's asking too much for him to discuss it rationally - or....is it?


Hellboy44: Perhaps on other forums, but on
Synthzone? . . . not a chance !

Many of us have had to endure similar derogatory offhand abuse about Yamaha arrangers, and which offended many people here as well (me for one), so I seriously doubt anything's going to change on that score. I've come to realize that just about anything goes on Synthzone, of which is probably a big part of the appeal of this forum for some members here.

Scott
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#231351 - 05/18/08 07:30 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Well let's look at the emotional response to the dig...

'Live PA' can have SO much difference to one person or another. For a start, the VRX's are designed for 'live PA' applications, which for many people (other than maybe here!) probably means the amplification of a live band.

Just the clean amplification of a REAL drummer to close to concert levels requires more than a PAS system for him alone! In fact, look at all of Bose's literature on the PAS system, and you will see their recommendation of an entire PAS system for each member of the band, including the singer(s)... Now, I don't know about you, but there aren't many bands in today's economy that are willing to pony up $2-3k EACH for a PA, each of which has to be operated independently (what does the sound-man do, run all the control boxes offstage for each one individually?). It's all very well to say you each operate your own mix, but experience has shown few live musicians have the technical chops (or the self control!) to mix themselves correctly night after night in different venues.

You see, there can be very different interpretations of 'live sound'. If you look at it in this light, it is perhaps easy to say that the PAS is indeed a 'joke' for this kind of application (no more than using a VRX would be a 'joke' in a country club situation, though!).

For the amplification of pre-canned backing, whether arranger, SMF's or MP3's, with their DRASTICALLY reduced dynamic ranges compared to 'live', the PAS can do a far better job, IMO, but if you do a mixture of some live gigs, some arranger based, some indoors at low volume, some outdoors at very high volumes, one of these things is just not going to cut it. At $3k a pop for the new L2's, and a stack of bass subs, you could buy an equivalently loud conventional system AND a TOTL arranger for that!

But I'm sorry, perhaps you ARE on the edge of the future of live sound... The VRX's are in fact a line array design like the Bose's. But built and spec-ed for an entirely higher level of performance and usage. Joke or not? That would depend on what you intend to use it for, and how loud you want to be....

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#231352 - 05/18/08 09:32 PM Re: Why so emotional about the Bose PAS???
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Thank you Diki - that's the kind of reply I was hoping for.

What I really want to know is whether or not Mr. Greely was thinking along similar lines when he made his statement.

He's probably just another troll, (that was his first and only post - wasn't it? I could be wrong) but I would like to know exactly what he meant.
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