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#229149 - 03/18/08 09:10 PM Re: Audya video
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Dreamer,
I somehow doubt it, but that's only my humble opinion. Mainly because of the size of the files required. When you look at a simple 1 bar BIAB drum loop being nearly 1 megabyte.
Imagine the user memory required to deal with the various chords with an instrument like a guitar? Sounds like Ketron have managed to do it within rom , but user sounds? loops ? or whatever may be required might be a bit more difficult. Going to be fascinating to see what is available as far as user programability goes.
They did an amazing job with very little rom as far as the Real Drums go considering there's something like 70 to 80 (give or take) Real Drum sets in the sd1+, & yet to create a 1 bar sliced user drum audio loop for our Korg Pa's uses 1meg of user memory.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer:
Hi Rikki and others,

I cannot but wonder: BIAB 2008 happens to use for the first time not only Real Drums but also Real Guitars for their backing parts, so I ask: is there any similarity between the two systems? And, could it be possibile to load (or at least convert) BIAB loops inside the Audya?
This is not a secondary point, because, as all BIAB aficionados know, there are already many styles made available by PG Music (and more will no doubt be released in the future), so these would be excellent news for all those worried with the Audya "upgrade-ability".
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#229150 - 03/18/08 11:07 PM Re: Audya video
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Trident,
the Live Drums in my SD1+ has had me rather intrigued for quite a while.
The Sd can play 3 types of drums.
It has the normal set of midi drum kits like your Brush kits , Jazz kits, Standard Kits etc etc

It can also use USER audio drum loops in styles & midifiles ie 1 bar 2 bar etc audio drum loops ( ie Drums on Demand, you could even use BIAB's Real Drum audio loops with some editing) . These drum loops are loaded into the sd1 sampler, processed & can be used to replace the midi drums in a style or midifile. They keep in sync even at different tempo's ie the loop may be recorded at 80 bpm, the style may be 100bpm, the loop will play back correctly at the 100bpm speed.
Just say you have a simple 1 bar audio drum pattern like 1& 2& 3& 4&
Beat 1 bass/hihat 1& hihat
Beat 2 rimshot/hihat 2& hihat
Beat 3 bass/hihat 3& hihat
Beat 4 rimshot/hihat 4& hihat
The SD1 just loops this audio file & plays it back in sync with the style part.

Next up you have the Live Drums. From what I gather, these are a mix of audio & midi technology. & they are Rom based.
I have a feeling that they may work in a similar manner to my pa800 grooves, except that the PA800 grooves are user based audio loops wheras the Ketron Live Drum audio loops are rom based.

With the PA800 I load in a drum audio loop,
( same as for the sd1) process it. This is where they differ.
The PA800 slices the loop into segments & gives each segment a midi note no.

Beat 1 bass/hihat C1
1& hihat C#1
Beat 2 rimshot/hihat D1
2& hihat D#1
Beat 3 bass/hihat E1
3& hihat F1
Beat 4 rimshot/hihat F#1
4& hihat G1

If I leave the midi note track as is, the pattern will play back identically to what the sd1 loop would have played back,
but if I choose to edit it,
Beat 1 bass/hihat C1
1& hihat C#1
Beat 2 rimshot/hihat D1
2& hihat D#1
Beat 3 rimshot/hihat D1
3& hihat F1
Beat 4 bass/hihat C1

I can alter the pattern to a certain degree.
Doesn't make much sense to do it with a 1 bar loop, but if you strung a number of varied audio loops together, & sliced, you could come up with some interesting new rhythms.

This is the way I think the Live Drums work.
Ketron have used a multi bar rom based audio loop, that has been sliced. Each of the slices is assigned a midi note no. Certain midi notes trigger different slices of the loop.

Most of the Ketron SD1+ styles use a Live Drum Set & one of the midi drum sets ie in a Jazz brush style the Live Drums play the Brushes Swishes & Bass Drum, the Midi Drum set plays the hihats, cymbals, ride drums etc
this way the Live Drum track can be used thruought the style ( including some of the intro's & Endings, wheras the Midi drum kit provides the variety between the variations by adding cymbal crashes or altering the hihat rhythm etc.

Hope to do something similiar with audio loops for my PA800. Just a case of finding suitable drum loops.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#229151 - 03/19/08 01:29 AM Re: Audya video
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Rikki
thanks very much for the analysis....

If I understand, what they did was take a recording of a real drummer,
say a 4/4, duration one bar
and slice it VERTICALLY say at 8ths
so they come up with that bar cut in 8 pieces
which they assign into midi notes and finally
you can arrange their order.

Yep, I think I am getting an idea.

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#229152 - 03/19/08 01:55 AM Re: Audya video
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Trident,
basically that's the way the Korg works . I can work with more than 1 bar at a time, but it starts to chew up my available sample memory.

I think they've done something similar with the Ketron sd1 except that I would imagine the Ketron is based on more than the one bar , plus they would have recorded their loops specifically to suit, wheras I'm stuck with finding prerecorded drum loops.

I'm really only guessing, I've got zero inside knowledge, & it's not mentioned anywhere in the manual on what they really are, but Dan01 mentioned the word slices & audio loops.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]Rikki
thanks very much for the analysis....



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-19-2008).]
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#229153 - 03/19/08 11:53 AM Re: Audya video
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
What happens to the audio if you play the loop SLOWER than it was recorded at? Are there 'gaps' between the audio, as the slices get moved apart, or does the engine time-stretch them?

Most of the professional loop tools (Acid, Live, REX, Apple Loops, etc.) will time stretch the ends of the samples, to allow for slowing down the loop without creating holes in the sound. Does any arranger (apart from MS) do this?
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#229154 - 03/19/08 03:31 PM Re: Audya video
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Diki,
I gather you're refferring to the Korg??
It doesn't mention Time Stretching as such.
I don't even know what it actually means.
I've only been doing some minor experimentation with the groove files, ie I've put together some brush swish pads. I'll have to check & see if there is a gap if used at a slower tempo.

There is a note in the manual that says
"Gaps between sliced samples, when slowing down the tempo, can be automatically filled by the Extend function , smoothing out each sample's tail".
I've still got a lot to learn, but the difference in perceived sound between hearing midi drums play jazz brush swishes & hearing an audio loop play something similiar, will I beleive , make it worth the effort of digging in deeper.

Not enough hours in the day, between wanting to get stuck into figuring out guitar mode, & learning about the audio grooves.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]What happens to the audio if you play the loop SLOWER than it was recorded at? Are there 'gaps' between the audio, as the slices get moved apart, or does the engine time-stretch them?



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-19-2008).]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#229155 - 03/19/08 04:26 PM Re: Audya video
DanO1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
What happens to the audio if you play the loop SLOWER than it was recorded at? Are there 'gaps' between the audio, as the slices get moved apart, or does the engine time-stretch them?

Most of the professional loop tools (Acid, Live, REX, Apple Loops, etc.) will time stretch the ends of the samples, to allow for slowing down the loop without creating holes in the sound. Does any arranger (apart from MS) do this?



I would think that any product, by any manufacturer, would be designed to be musically correct. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of the manufacturing the product.
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#229156 - 03/20/08 02:03 AM Re: Audya video
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by DanO1:

I would think that any product, by any manufacturer, would be designed to be musically correct. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of the manufacturing the product.



All manufactures do the best with the technology available to them at the time, so while in an ideal world everything would be musically perfect, in the real world it may not be as accurate as you think. (Time stretch takes a lot of processing power)
A good example is the fact that most manufactures are now moving towards or are already using sound modelling for their sounds rather then sampling, (Giving a much more real sound) which requires more processing power then is available in hardware based boards, however Yamaha developed a Hybrid of the 2 called Super Articulation which while not accurate still gives a fantastic sound. (For Yamaha owners who think SA is perfect, ask yourself why Yamaha are bringing out SA 2 in the soon to be released Tyros 2 replacement)
Remember, due to the time taken to develop a new hardware board (2 3yrs) the technology is quite old by the time it is released. (As an example the Audya thread has mentioned a P3 CPU which is positively antique, and P4 has almost disappeared)

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#229157 - 03/20/08 07:08 AM Re: Audya video
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Bill great points & an eye opining post...makes you wonder eh?

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#229158 - 03/20/08 07:15 AM Re: Audya video
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Totally right Bill!
Maybe they can value to include this in the Audya for resolve the powe computing: http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=1315&maincat_no=388

Another video is available: http://www.mira-multimedia.de/video/Messe2008.wmv

I will not add comments anymore.... value yourself.
enjoy what you play

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