This one uses Native Instruments B4 VST and so is also open. Release date 15-12-07. http://www.hamichord.com/
Talk about Organs making a comeback, everybody seems to be launching new ones. (And not just Hammond Clones)

Bill

Bill, that could be an interesting organ/controller..for today's organist..

If my math is right ..it comes in around 45 pounds..

One thing without hearing it...it sounds good.[Native Instruments B4]..

Drawbars Yeah!!!!!

I think the Hamichord is going to be an interesting entry into the fray of Hammond clones. A dual manual with a reasonable weight and something that also looks pretty cool and that sounds good gets my vote. We know that B4 II software sounds great but it would be interesting to know which M-Audio sound card they are going to use in it. It's also interesting that they're going with Windows XP as oppossed to Windows Vista. Although with Vista's still mediocre driver support in the area of various audio applications and the other numerous bugs it still is infested with I can certainly understand their choice and reasoning for using Windows XP.

I wondered if they were actually going to sell the Hamichord in the States so I fired off an email to them and here was their reply:

Hi Mike

Surely during 2008, maybe in march or April, you will be able to buy Hamichord in the States, for now I can only tell you that 2 of our instruments will be at Namm together with another Italian Brand.
Bye

Dr Agnoletto Andrea www.hamichord.com

I'm ecstatic that the Hamichord will indeed be sold here in the U.S. Depending on the street price and how it actually sounds in person and whether or not the OS will work seamlessly with all the various features and functions are my most important considerations. But it will definitely be worth a serious looking into by me if all the criteria I listed are met and/or exceeded. I hope it has a USB 2.0 interface too but you would think if it did they would list it as such on their web site.

Best,
Mike

45 lbs...add a good road case, which would have to be quite large, and you got a lotta weight for one person.

Ian

Hi Mike
Like all the other computer based instruments (Wersi, Lionstracs, TMS etc) it will most likely be a standard desktop computer inside, (Without the case of course) and so will have all the latest features, including USB 2.
If it helps to put your mind at rest, the B4 VST has been used without any problem on Wersi instruments since they were introduced in 2000. (Wersi instruments run on XP)

Bill

I still think the Nord C1 is the better deal...far less complicated and lighter, too.

Also, it's got those cool combo organs as well.

Ian

That's reassuring to know Bill.

As far as the weight is concerned I wish it would've been lighter too Ian. But considering that it is a 'dual' manual with 'physical' drawbars and what looks to be a very solidly constructed outer shell I really think Hamichord did an excellent job keeping it as low as they did weight wise. For instance, the Yamaha Motif ES7 weighed over 42 lbs and has a single keybed. I owned one and although I noticed a little strain upon lifting it I could relatively easily carry it around, and with proper lifting techniques (bend the knees, keep the back straight, keep the object close to your body upon lifting, etc.) that I personally experienced no real problems moving it about with or without its case. And of course if a case has wheels and is ergonomically designed it would make it that much easier and convenient for a person to transport the Hamichord too. So the 3 additional lbs of the Hamichord vs. the Motif ES7 shouldn't really be that big of a deal to me. Considering the Hamichord is the lightest dual manual Hammond clone with physical drawbars out there I would think it should sell relatively well at the 45 lbs they are offering it at. Considering the original B3 weighed a ton (figuratively speaking ) the Hamichord is a welcome relief and a sight for sore eyes. And one for strong steady backs I suppose too which can't hurt.

PS: Maybe down the road the subsequent model to the Hamichord will be even lighter than the original. Probably have to wait a few years for the successor though. Just like we're doing on a 25 lb 88 note fully weighted, fully blown arranger workstation keyboard too eh Ian? Waiting that is. Although if they build it people will come out of the woodwork to buy it that's for sure. Including me. After all technical aspects are considered and evaluated of course..

Best,
Mike

I'd be happy if someone...ANYONE, would make a 25 lb digital PIANO with 88 weighted hammer action keys and three killer sounds...Piano...Strings and a B3 with virtual drawbars and a great rotary sim.

It is possible...whether it's probable...time will tell.

Ian

Although you just want an fully weighted 88 note Digital Piano at that weight and not necessarily an 88 note arranger at that weight but I would really like to see someone come out with an 88 note TOTL arranger at the proverbial 25 lbs too Ian.

Best,
Mike

Oops! You beat me to the draw.

Best,
Mike

No Drawbars will always keep people away

On second thought, I could do without the B3 sound...would only really be good for chording anyway, as weighted action is not so cool for organ leads and smears etc.

If you want to see/feel what an 88 note Tyros2 would be like, just go and spend some time playing a Yamaha CVP-409,(the Roland aficionados can try the KR-series).

In my opinion, the weighted keys are superb for PIANO, but are really clunky for other sounds, especially organ, Saxes or other instruments where a lighter action would be desirable.

That's where Hammond XK-1/XK-3c and clones like the C1 really shine...the action is IMMEDIATE...like a B3 IMMEDIATE.

Just like a weighted hammer piano action as opposed to semi-weighted, there's no substitute for the real organ action like the C1 and others.

Ian

This discussion is so interesting and refreshing. Now that I have my XK-1 it seems everyone wants to get on the drawbar bandwagon. Would any of us give up our arrangers to go clone + hammered 76/88. What about all those styles?

Hammond has (had) some sort of spinet or keyboard with styles. ROland has that karaoke keyboard and Yamaha has some double keyboard thing out there in Asia. Maybe we are seeing a peek of a new direction in arranger design.

Couldn't disagree more, Ian...

There are perfectly good SUBSTITUTES for the extreme actions of organs and pianos. What's in the middle of no weight and heavy weight? That's right... semi-weighted.

Light enough to play organ, heavy enough to play piano. Long enough to play most piano parts, short enough to get in most cars.

They are called 76 note keyboards, and every manufacturer makes them (including Yamaha). Every manufacturer makes all their keyboards in EVERY size and feel, EXCEPT Yamaha, who somehow seem to feel that ONLY arranger players wouldn't find 76 semi-weighted plastic of any use. Of course, they don't feel that way about workstation users. Somehow, they have more needs than us... They must be MUCH better players, eh?

You seem to have managed to accept the awful PSR action as a SUBSTITUTE for all other actions. Don't tell me you NEVER play a piano line or two on that no-feel 61... In fact, you play every single sound in the entire instrument on that action, Rhodes, organ, clav, piano, you name it. So please don't tell us there is no substitute, you seem to have found one you can live with. And most of us that DO play quite a lot of piano AND organ on the same keyboard feel that a 76 semi-weighted is at least as good a substitute for the real things as that PSR action. And the majority that have played them, I am QUITE sure, recognize they are actually FAR better substitutes than the one you currently use.

76 semi-weighted plastic... probably (at least for me) the ONLY type of keyboard you can play piano AND organ on, and come VERY close to fooling everyone (except yourself!). A 61 is just too short, an 88 wood is just too stiff. I feel like the baby bear... 'This one is JUST right!'

What ever works for you, buddy.

Light action PSR is perfect for me for arranger work, AND, I only have to please ME...no one else.

Never liked semi-weighted keys...horrible for organ...wimpy for SOLO piano.

I adhere to the old saying by Dr. Seuss...
"Do what you want because those that mind, don't matter...and those that matter, don't mind!"

Make sense to you? Works for me quite well.

Ian

I think I have nirvana for my Hammond B3 sounds. I have been using the Roland VK8M Drawbar module for a few years. I use this in combination with a wide variety of midi capable keyboards; from the Tyros 2 to the Korg Triton Extreme. The sounds of the Roland are amazingly realistic and perfect for live gigging. The module weighs very little.

I can't see just bringing a Hammond on a gig unless I'm playing Blues all night, so I need a variety of sounds for different songs. That makes this module very handy.



------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

Al,

I tried the VK8m on my old PSR-3000...worked exceptionally well....the PSR's action seemed to compliment the VK's organ sound, and I was able to use the auxiliary ins on the PSR and avoid using a mixer.

Very realistic Hammond clone...really liked the nice crunchy distortion you could get...nice Leslie sim....great product.

Ian

Ian,

How cool is it to turn the Leslie speaker on and off with just the wave of the hand using the D-Beam controller. Just make sure it's on the Leslie setting and not the BRAKE!!!! Which I've done a few times to the dismay of the audience. hehehe.

Regards,
Al

------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

Al,

Yep the D-beam is pretty freaky...a friend of mine has a VK8 organ...he tells me he gets all kinds of comments, from people thinking he's chasing flies away, or he gets people looking at him curiously, and then waving back at him.

The Roland VKs definitely have the "sound" pretty well nailed, but it's that distorted, warm, ballsy tone that really impressed me.

Ian

Don't forget that the G70 (and E80) has a Roland VK-organ built right in, along with sliders for drawbars (got to keep the Nord haters happy!). Add to that the G70's action, which I completely disagree is of any detriment to playing organ well.

To be honest, you can play organ well on just about any semi-weighted keyboard as far as the weight goes (especially if you have piano-strengthened fingers!) but the primary thing that makes piano sized keys unsuitable for organ techniques is the sharp edges and corners. There is such a lot of glisses and smears involved that any sharp edges will hang your hand up and make it difficult to run through the keys without tearing your skin off! (I used to have a terrible Boosey and Hawkes combo organ in the seventies that would cut my hands every night - but the crowd would go wild when I tipped it over and showed them all the blood on the keyboard at the end of the show!).

This is where the G70 action, above all others, makes such a good combination of both touches. All the edges are rounded off JUST enough that organ smears are easy, but still piano enough like to make very little transition necessary. It isn't in the weight, IMO, so much as the shape.

If any of you HAVEN'T played a G70 (or an A70 or G1000/800 - they all had basically the same action), try to run your hands over one if you get the chance, and see what I'm talking about (don't worry about whether or not you love the arranger, this is just about key feel and shape). It is rare, but you CAN find keyboards that do a great job of being a piano action, AND an organ action...

But 61 is too short, no matter WHAT shape the keys are in, if you want to play piano parts.

Hammond organ clones do not have semi-weighted keys. Why would that be?

I haven't played the CVP-409 but I thought the CVP-309 was superb for not only Piano parts but other instruments as well. Of course, I've been told I have really strong hands (must be from years of construction type work I did I suppose ) so I experienced no fatigue or trouble playing any of the CVP-309's sounds including piano. But that is the catch. The weighted action has to be such that it provides the perfect blend for playing piano parts and all the other sounds too. I'm sure Yamaha could accomplish such a feat in an 88 note TOTL arranger. If they could plunk in a CVP-309 or other similar action keybed without making the overall weight too extreme, I for one, would be happy. But I have no inkling if Yamaha will undertake such a feat. Even if Yammie won't consider an 88 fully weighted TOTL arranger I hope one of the other manufacturers will venture out and build one down the road in the near future.

It also may be possible at this juncture in time to make a fully weighted keybed without traditional weights but rather instead use some sort of torsion/tension or other technology that would allow a person to adjust the keybed from a heavier weighted action feel or a lighter synth action feel either electronically or perhaps manually with some type of knob, etc. I'm sure the manufacturers, whether Yamaha, Korg, or Roland or some others have already considered this or are now in the process of creating such a thing. It may be top secret and consequently nothing has been leaked about it yet. But if we the consumers are talking about something like this in the public arena I would think keyboard manufacturing engineers have also discussed it too no doubt.

Best,
Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Don't forget that the G70 (and E80) has a Roland VK-organ built right in, along with sliders for drawbars [QUOTE]
I played both of them,and i use with my Tyros 2 the VK8M,and i find the sound of the
G70/E80 not even come close to the realisme of the VK8M.
Before the VK8 i owned a XK1,i have more pleasure and a better sound with this VK8M.

Impuls

Good points, Mike.

It's strange that you mention an action with adjustable torsion...a Yamaha buddy of mine and I were discussing that very same concept yesterday by phone.

It would be great to adjust physical resistance by just turning a knob.

I have fairly strong hands as well from years of martial arts, but I still like the lighter touch for everything but piano...it's not the tiring but the amount of control I get playing solo piano on weighted keys.

I can live with 61 light action keys on the arranger, and have no problem playing piano parts, as long as I'm in arranger mode....it's when I play solo piano that I need the the range and weighted action.

It would be pretty cool if one keyboard would satisfy all my needs, but, alas, there isn't one yet that will fulfill them...I think, no matter what, I will still need two keyboards, but if I can get a light enough digital piano, I'd be tickled.

Ian

As someone who has owned a Hammond M3, Voce3b, Roland VR-760 & G70, Yamaha PSr 2k & 3k - I feel that I can confidently say that NONE of these keyboards sound as much like the B3 as my new XK-1.

The M3, of course, had all the guts in a compact pkg. and definitely would/could do the job. The Voce was an experiment in using modules and I never used it much, but it was OK. The Yamahas do an alright job for those who just need to have a drawbar sound here and there, but they're not in the same leaugue as these others. The best of the bunch have been the Rolands and their VK8 engine. Not having owned an actual VK8, I can't really say just how close it is, but the VR760 and G70 have the best drawbars and rotor sims (until now). What is lacking in the Roland engines I owned is the real feel of the Hammond vibrato and chorus. The Vr760 was better in this dept., but the G70 v/c was one of my big disappointments. That pretty much killed the clone thing for me.

Now, this XK-1 is so simple to play and sounds so much like the Big Boy that I scream for joy every time I sit down at it. I can adjust the reverb to go before or after the Leslie effect and I can in/decrease the time it take for the Lelie to speed up or slow down - it's freaking great! And the vibrato/chorus section is second to none; it actually sounds like the old Hammond v/c - and it too is adjustable, if you want.

I briefly looked at the Nord clones, but the buttons were a downer for me. And the guy I bought my XK-1 from has a C1, B3 and Nord Stage 76 and he felt that the Nords were close, but not as good as the Hammonds.

Anyway, I'm really happy with my XK-1; and it doesn't even come close to 426 lbs.

I've played them both too, Impulse, and I agree...the VK8 is much better than the G70.

Perhaps it has to do with the action of the keys which are perfect for organ, or perhaps the sound engine has been upgraded since the G70 came out.

Just to fair, I did like the XK-1 a lot, too...really great Leslie sim.

AND...

for me there's something to be said for the self-contained, all-in-one units. I'll give you that a VK8m or the Hammond equivalent are great too, but now you have to deal with a different keyboard and off-keyboard controls - that doesn't work for me. If you have or find one you like, great. I haven't been able to find (or maybe just adjust to) a controller I'm comfortable with.

I agree that the Roland keybed, ala G70 is great for organ and most piano playing. But, Roland really screwed up when they inserted the VK8 engine into the arrangers. They didn't use the complete guts - and that sucks. For me, the lackluster performance of the G70's drawbars (which are still better than most)took away almost all my need and desire for the G70.

Yep, I gotta agree Cassp..the XK-1's vibrato chorus is a killer...I had a B3...it's pretty well identical.

The lack of a realistic vibrato chorus was definitely sorely missing item on the G70...it is vital for that true Hammond sound.

I also thought the XK-1 had about the best Leslie sim I've ever heard...really convincing when you run it in stereo.

Glad you like your new instrument...you sound content with your purchase.

Ian

I completely agree that the G70's VK sim is crippled in comparison to the real thing, and also that probably the best single manual B3 sim is either the XK-1, or even better (now that Ian reports the Leslie from the XK-1 has been ported), the XK-3.

BUT.... I realize this is the General ARRANGER forum, and, as such realize that most of us are primarily interested in playing with arrangers, and from the constant whining about weight, generally accept that most of us are looking to gig with the minimal setup possible. So, although the G70 lacks a little in the B3 comparison department, I feel that a) of all the arrangers, it's B3 sim is still the best (but could definitely be improved), b) the keyboard feel and size, tied to what I feel is still the best grand piano sound of ANY (non-software) arranger, is the most versatile for ANY of the included sounds with the LEAST compromise in action (and can always trigger a Roland, Nord or Hammond clone rack for more authenticity if needed).

Most of us probably gig with ONE keyboard. In fact, most of the posts here involve the acceptance of at least SOME compromise to achieve this. If you ARE looking to play piano AND organ as main sounds, whether with arranger section on or not (I do most of my full band gigging and a bit of studio with just the G70), I can testify that the G70 action (whether you like the OS, sounds, styles or not) is by FAR the best action to be able to use your well-honed traditional techniques on, with the least compromise across the board.

OF COURSE you can find specialist keyboards that push the authenticity to the limit. But if you chose the arranger route, you'll have to accept that just ONE keyboard is going to have to cover ALL the bases. Rather than bring an arranger, a B3 clone AND an 88 woody to every gig, I simply find the one action of the G70 covers it all...

I've got to agree with 95% of what you say, Diki. The G70 keybed is exceptional and so is the piano sample. But, because the drawbar section is handicaped, I feel that brings the G down a few notches in the "gotta have" category. Keeping in mind what you said about us wanting one light keyboard, I would have to say that at least the Yammies and probably the Korgs for that matter give equal or better sounds and styles in many areas. For me (that's me only), the great G70 keyboard and it's piano were not enough to keep it in my stall. It's way too heavy and awkward to cart around. I can translate what Roland styles I need and the pianos are pretty darn close. That leaves the heavy keyboard - no thanks.

But in all, you are pretty right in in your observations. I do need the drawbar sounds, and the XK-1 is the best yet IMHO.

Yep... If you are prepared to lug around two or more keyboards to a gig, there are LOTs of ways of getting a good sound with little compromise.

But I am talking primarily if you have to use just the one.

I ALWAYS use strong ATA cases for all my keyboards (just too used to road conditions to risk anything flimsier) so a multi keyboard rig, even if using pretty light keyboards (which the XK-1 is not - 15kg - way more than a PSR!) once you add in the road cases is WAY more than my G70 alone. Some feel that multiple medium weight cases are better than one heavy case. I feel the opposite (opinions vary!)...

But, whatever floats your boat. At least the choice exists, other than a 76 from Yamaha...!

What's great about the VK-8M is that you can tweek the tonewheels, amplifiers, Chorus, and reverb using hardware control surfaces:

[img]http://www.arrangerworld.com/files/pictures/1/1/20071204081530_1_1_rs.JPG [/img]

------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

Yep, Al, the VK8m is cool...what were your feelings on the chorus vibrato?

Did you feel it was a good replication of the Hammond?

Ian

I've got a feeling, as soon as Hammond Suzuki upgrade the XM2 with the new Vib/Chr and Leslie from the XK-1/3c, it is probably going to be the über-clone rack, too...

BTW, has anyone tried using either the Hammond or the NI B4 drawbar controllers on Nord's? If they can be made to work, it might bring a few more hardcore B3 guys into the C1 camp...

Reading all this stuff about the VK8m really has me thinking again about using midi modules. I think if you are an arranger player who is happy with his board and just wants to add better drawbar realism than your arranger supplies, then the VK8m or XVm would be great additions.

Personally, I shy away from modules; probably because I'm not too good at midi controlling techniques. But there's is so much to be said for matching the keyboard size, feel and quality to match the sounds you are playing.

Nothing is worse than playing a great sample/sound on the wrong keyboard. It just doesn't sound the same. that tactile feel of the right keyboard is essential. I feel Kurzweil did that with their PC88 and other products. The keyboard sold me on the sounds, more than the reverse. I think it's much the same here in our discussion of Hammond clones. If you can match a clone sound you are happy with, with a keyboard action the satisfies you, then that's the key. I think Hammond, Korg, Nord and Roland have done great jobs with their clone keybeds. The keytouch is different than a regular synth action of most sorts. The close have that immediate contact that is essential to that B3 jazz attack.

I'm rambling, so I'll quit here, but I think I've made most of my point that sounds and keyboard should go together. I guess if I really had to settle on playing just one keyboard and having to have my drawbars, then the G70 was best for me, BUT I don't have to settle for that and I didn't.