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#222341 - 12/03/07 11:48 AM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Don't forget that the G70 (and E80) has a Roland VK-organ built right in, along with sliders for drawbars (got to keep the Nord haters happy!). Add to that the G70's action, which I completely disagree is of any detriment to playing organ well.

To be honest, you can play organ well on just about any semi-weighted keyboard as far as the weight goes (especially if you have piano-strengthened fingers!) but the primary thing that makes piano sized keys unsuitable for organ techniques is the sharp edges and corners. There is such a lot of glisses and smears involved that any sharp edges will hang your hand up and make it difficult to run through the keys without tearing your skin off! (I used to have a terrible Boosey and Hawkes combo organ in the seventies that would cut my hands every night - but the crowd would go wild when I tipped it over and showed them all the blood on the keyboard at the end of the show!).

This is where the G70 action, above all others, makes such a good combination of both touches. All the edges are rounded off JUST enough that organ smears are easy, but still piano enough like to make very little transition necessary. It isn't in the weight, IMO, so much as the shape.

If any of you HAVEN'T played a G70 (or an A70 or G1000/800 - they all had basically the same action), try to run your hands over one if you get the chance, and see what I'm talking about (don't worry about whether or not you love the arranger, this is just about key feel and shape). It is rare, but you CAN find keyboards that do a great job of being a piano action, AND an organ action...

But 61 is too short, no matter WHAT shape the keys are in, if you want to play piano parts.
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#222342 - 12/03/07 12:27 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Hammond organ clones do not have semi-weighted keys. Why would that be?
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#222343 - 12/03/07 01:12 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:

If you want to see/feel what an 88 note Tyros2 would be like, just go and spend some time playing a Yamaha CVP-409,(the Roland aficionados can try the KR-series).

In my opinion, the weighted keys are superb for PIANO, but are really clunky for other sounds, especially organ, Saxes or other instruments where a lighter action would be desirable.

Ian


I haven't played the CVP-409 but I thought the CVP-309 was superb for not only Piano parts but other instruments as well. Of course, I've been told I have really strong hands (must be from years of construction type work I did I suppose ) so I experienced no fatigue or trouble playing any of the CVP-309's sounds including piano. But that is the catch. The weighted action has to be such that it provides the perfect blend for playing piano parts and all the other sounds too. I'm sure Yamaha could accomplish such a feat in an 88 note TOTL arranger. If they could plunk in a CVP-309 or other similar action keybed without making the overall weight too extreme, I for one, would be happy. But I have no inkling if Yamaha will undertake such a feat. Even if Yammie won't consider an 88 fully weighted TOTL arranger I hope one of the other manufacturers will venture out and build one down the road in the near future.

It also may be possible at this juncture in time to make a fully weighted keybed without traditional weights but rather instead use some sort of torsion/tension or other technology that would allow a person to adjust the keybed from a heavier weighted action feel or a lighter synth action feel either electronically or perhaps manually with some type of knob, etc. I'm sure the manufacturers, whether Yamaha, Korg, or Roland or some others have already considered this or are now in the process of creating such a thing. It may be top secret and consequently nothing has been leaked about it yet. But if we the consumers are talking about something like this in the public arena I would think keyboard manufacturing engineers have also discussed it too no doubt.

Best,
Mike
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#222344 - 12/03/07 01:33 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
Impuls Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 614
Loc: Netherlands
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Don't forget that the G70 (and E80) has a Roland VK-organ built right in, along with sliders for drawbars [QUOTE]
I played both of them,and i use with my Tyros 2 the VK8M,and i find the sound of the
G70/E80 not even come close to the realisme of the VK8M.
Before the VK8 i owned a XK1,i have more pleasure and a better sound with this VK8M.

Impuls
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#222345 - 12/03/07 01:37 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Good points, Mike.

It's strange that you mention an action with adjustable torsion...a Yamaha buddy of mine and I were discussing that very same concept yesterday by phone.

It would be great to adjust physical resistance by just turning a knob.

I have fairly strong hands as well from years of martial arts, but I still like the lighter touch for everything but piano...it's not the tiring but the amount of control I get playing solo piano on weighted keys.

I can live with 61 light action keys on the arranger, and have no problem playing piano parts, as long as I'm in arranger mode....it's when I play solo piano that I need the the range and weighted action.

It would be pretty cool if one keyboard would satisfy all my needs, but, alas, there isn't one yet that will fulfill them...I think, no matter what, I will still need two keyboards, but if I can get a light enough digital piano, I'd be tickled.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#222346 - 12/03/07 01:55 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
As someone who has owned a Hammond M3, Voce3b, Roland VR-760 & G70, Yamaha PSr 2k & 3k - I feel that I can confidently say that NONE of these keyboards sound as much like the B3 as my new XK-1.

The M3, of course, had all the guts in a compact pkg. and definitely would/could do the job. The Voce was an experiment in using modules and I never used it much, but it was OK. The Yamahas do an alright job for those who just need to have a drawbar sound here and there, but they're not in the same leaugue as these others. The best of the bunch have been the Rolands and their VK8 engine. Not having owned an actual VK8, I can't really say just how close it is, but the VR760 and G70 have the best drawbars and rotor sims (until now). What is lacking in the Roland engines I owned is the real feel of the Hammond vibrato and chorus. The Vr760 was better in this dept., but the G70 v/c was one of my big disappointments. That pretty much killed the clone thing for me.

Now, this XK-1 is so simple to play and sounds so much like the Big Boy that I scream for joy every time I sit down at it. I can adjust the reverb to go before or after the Leslie effect and I can in/decrease the time it take for the Lelie to speed up or slow down - it's freaking great! And the vibrato/chorus section is second to none; it actually sounds like the old Hammond v/c - and it too is adjustable, if you want.

I briefly looked at the Nord clones, but the buttons were a downer for me. And the guy I bought my XK-1 from has a C1, B3 and Nord Stage 76 and he felt that the Nords were close, but not as good as the Hammonds.

Anyway, I'm really happy with my XK-1; and it doesn't even come close to 426 lbs.
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#222347 - 12/03/07 01:56 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Impuls:
[QUOTE]
I played both of them,and i use with my Tyros 2 the VK8M,and i find the sound of the
G70/E80 not even come close to the realisme of the VK8M.
Before the VK8 i owned a XK1,i have more pleasure and a better sound with this VK8M.

Impuls[/B]


I've played them both too, Impulse, and I agree...the VK8 is much better than the G70.

Perhaps it has to do with the action of the keys which are perfect for organ, or perhaps the sound engine has been upgraded since the G70 came out.

Just to fair, I did like the XK-1 a lot, too...really great Leslie sim.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#222348 - 12/03/07 02:02 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
AND...

for me there's something to be said for the self-contained, all-in-one units. I'll give you that a VK8m or the Hammond equivalent are great too, but now you have to deal with a different keyboard and off-keyboard controls - that doesn't work for me. If you have or find one you like, great. I haven't been able to find (or maybe just adjust to) a controller I'm comfortable with.
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#222349 - 12/03/07 02:08 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I've played them both too, Impulse, and I agree...the VK8 is much better than the G70.

Perhaps it has to do with the action of the keys which are perfect for organ, or perhaps the sound engine has been upgraded since the G70 came out.

Just to fair, I did like the XK-1 a lot, too...really great Leslie sim.



I agree that the Roland keybed, ala G70 is great for organ and most piano playing. But, Roland really screwed up when they inserted the VK8 engine into the arrangers. They didn't use the complete guts - and that sucks. For me, the lackluster performance of the G70's drawbars (which are still better than most)took away almost all my need and desire for the G70.
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#222350 - 12/03/07 02:11 PM Re: Another Hammond Clone due for release
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
And the vibrato/chorus section is second to none; it actually sounds like the old Hammond v/c - and it too is adjustable, if you want.



Yep, I gotta agree Cassp..the XK-1's vibrato chorus is a killer...I had a B3...it's pretty well identical.

The lack of a realistic vibrato chorus was definitely sorely missing item on the G70...it is vital for that true Hammond sound.

I also thought the XK-1 had about the best Leslie sim I've ever heard...really convincing when you run it in stereo.

Glad you like your new instrument...you sound content with your purchase.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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