Hi,

I've been taking piano lessons for the past few months, right now I'm still playing on my 61-key Korg PA-60, which isnt really ideal for playing piano.
So, I've been thinking of getting a digital (stage) piano.
I've been looking around the web checking the different brands and models, and I've decided to either go for the GEM Promega 2 or Kurzweil PC1X.
Personally I think the Promega has the best piano sounds, but the Kurzweil offers more sounds and features (which are important, if I ever decide to play in a band).
I have played the Promega 3 a few years ago, back then I didn't like it that much, but I used really lousy headphones, So I can't really judge it with such bad headphones.
The online demos sound pretty good, however, it seems to me it sounds a little weak in the upper key ranges, but those are only online demos.
I'll probably visit a store in the near future to check the Promega out (This time with some decent headphones).
The problem is, I can't really compare it to the Kurzweil since no store in my area sells them.
If I decide to go for the Kurzweil, I'll have to rely on audio demos and order it from Germany (fortunately they offer a 14 day trial period, If you dont like it, you can send it back).
My question is: has anyone compared the Promega's to the Kurzweils?, or do you own one (user experiences etc.)?
And how does it compare to the Fantom X's piano? (I own the Fantom XR)
If you were in my position, which would you pick?
Any feedback appreciated.
Thanks in advance,

Greetz ,
Marcel

Have you tried Yamaha P series ?

It has 88 graded hammer action and I thought it was the best I have heard. It should be easily found in music stores. Many pros think it's the best out there.

Marcel,
the contenders for the title of best digital piano at the moment are:
- Gem Promega 3
- Roland RD 700 SX
- Yamaha P 250
(in alphabetical order!)

The Kurzweil is still an excellent choice, but right now seems one step behind the others.
My advice: try and play the first three (it shouldn't be a problem where you live) and then make up your mind.


[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 04-12-2005).]

Han & Andrea, Thanks for your reply's .

Han:

I've looked at the P-series as well, they sound pretty good too, but I prefer the Promega, probably because the Yamaha P-series use a Yamaha Grand Piano sample (Yamaha CFIIIS, as far as I know), and the Promega uses a Steinway and a Fazioli sample (I generally prefer Steinway grands over Yamaha's).
But I will try these as well when I get the chance.

Andrea:

As I mentioned to Han, I prefer the Promega's Steinway piano over the P250's Yamaha sample. I already own a Fantom XR, and the RD700SX has got the same pianos, at least one of them (The Ultimate Grand, I can always add the SRX-11 piano later).
What makes the Kurzweil so interesting, is its price, which is around 1200 euros when I order it from Germany, and it also has got some great non-piano sounds, and master controller features, but the Promega 2 piano sounds much bettter.

Tough decision . LOL.

Greetz ,
Marcel

[This message has been edited by Wazza (edited 04-13-2005).]

Hi Wazza,
Have you tried Clavia Nord Electro 2? http://www.clavia.se/nordelectro/index.htm

Check out this website. http://www.generalmusic.us/promega3.htm

Click on the video about DRAKE technology. I think you will find this most interesting. Then Compare.

------------------
Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

Hi,

Thanks for replying,

Silva,

Thanks for the link, I've looked at it, but I wasn't impressed by the acoustic grand pianos, but the organs and ep's sound nice though.
Another interesting product by Clavia coming out soon is the Clavia Nord Stage, From what I could hear, it has a really nice piano, maybe I should wait for that one .

Video: http://trio.harmony-central.com/ramgen/Musikmesse05/Clavia-Nord-Stage.rm

MP3: http://messe.harmony-central.com/Musikmesse05/Content/MP3/Clavia-Nord-Stage.mp3


Paul,
Thanks for the info, I've watched the video, these features are impressive, but what I did notice though, was that the release sound is clearly noticeable on the Acoustic, I could hardly hear it on the Promega, But I'll have to play it myself to really listen at it more closely.
BTW, do the RP700 & RP800 include the exact same piano samples as the Promega's?
I almost forgot, how big are these piano samples on the Promega's (The Steinway and the Fazioli)?

Thanks ,
Marcel

Hi Wazza,

Thanks for replying. What your opinion about RD700SX?

Hi Silva,

The RD700SX seems to be a really good piano, I haven't played it though, but I do own a Fantom XR which has got one of two main pianos included on the RD700SX (The Ultimate Grand sample).
I think this sample is one of the best I've heard, I prefer it over the Yamaha's (Motif ES & P-series),I can't really comment on the Superior Grand sample as I haven't played it, but the online demos sure sound good, I might have considered the RD700SX if I haven't had my Fantom XR.
Also, the RD700SX costs a few hundred euros more than the Promega 2(2000 vs. 1695).
The advantage of the RD700SX is that it includes a lot more sounds than most stage pianos, would be really useful if you need more than just piano sounds.

Greetz ,
Marcel

Hi Wazza
At moment I have Korg PA1X (61 Keys) and also I've been taking piano lessons for the past few months. So I need a stage piano too. I have to decide between RD700SX, Clavia Nord Electro 2 or P250.
Regards
Franky

lets clear up a few things...firstly the Pro mega 2 and 3 use piano PHYSICAL MODELLING...not sampling..which makes it the best (with daylight a clear second and third) digital piano, and whilst the big three continue to used compresses samples with shitloads of DSP, it will always be so..the point made about it not havinf the range of sounds is valid, BUT it IS a digital piano first and foremost, not a synth..you guys really need to do yourself a favour and check these out, form half pedalling on the damper pads, to sympathetic resonance, to oh goodness lots more...i am sayinthis as a person who has owned and played X8, Korgs and yammi's, in the piano stakes, its a no brainer..kurzweil's imho ar laughable when compared in an A/B test, plus theres all that shit about their tie in with young chang and the very real possibility there'll be no support when the bite the dust.....wazza if piano playing is your gig, you gotta get the promega 2 (if you like a slightly faster weighted action) or the 3 if you prefer the concert grans sorta feel, wieght and damping...

Hello Marcel,

I was planning on letting this thread play out a little before getting involved. But since Paul decided to jump in and suggest you watch the DRAKE video demo, and since you have made comments regarding this video it seems that it is time for my to say hi.

I watched the original .avi file of this video and the soundboard/string resonance is clearly discernable on the Promega 3 though not as loud as on the acoustic piano due to the lapel mic I was wearing, the lid being fully up and the room ambience reverb).

BTW - The point I was making in the section where I held a silent D chord while striking the same chord one octave up staccato and then doing the same thing but playing an E chord in the higher octave, thereby energizing the open strings of the silent chord is this;
When the D chord was played, the open strings of the lower D chord created the complete harmonic spectrum as if the hammers had actually struck those strings. But when the staccato E chord was played over top of the open D chord, the harmonic content was entirely different. The primary frequency heard was that of a single E note TWO octaves above the open D chord. NOT a full E triad like on other instruments that simply transpose a sample or use reverb to create the effect of resonance. I ask that you please listen to this section of the video again and try and hear what I am referring to.

I made a point in this video in saying that I had the effects processor and the internal EQ turned OFF on the Promega 3 so the sound heard is completely dry. Due to your comments I am re-thinking that idea. It was not really a fair comparison since the acoustic piano had the advantage of the natural sound reflections of the large room, wood floor and low ceiling of the studio I was in during the recording of this video while the Promega was more like an acoustic grand piano with the lid closed and sitting outside in a field with no possibility of sound being reflected back into the microphone.

I do appreciate your comments about the video and maybe I should redo the NSR sections. But I don't want to cheat by using internal or external effects processing so the Promega sounds better than the acoustic piano. It really wouldn't be unfair to use the effects and EQ of the Promega since those are shaping the sound just as the room dynamics shaped the recorded sound of the acoustic grand piano. But then that could lead someone else to say "sure, but what does it sound like dry?"

I assure you that the features I described in this video do exist and really do make a huge difference when playing the Promega under normal circumstances where the EQ and effects processing is active.

If you have specific questions about the Promega series our any of our products, please feel free to contact me via e-mail, at the GEM Community Forums or here on the synthzone.

Regarding the RP700 and RP800; Yes both of these instruments offer the EXACT same Steinway and Fazioli concert grand samples/physical models as the Promega series.

Best Regards,

Dave


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 04-14-2005).]

Thanks Dave for your reply.

But I wasn't actually referring to NSR, but to Advanced Release .
While on the acoustic grand, this is clearly noticable, I could hardly hear this effect on the Promega (Or maybe I have to visit a doctor to check my hearing lol).
But like I said before, I can't really tell unless I've played on it myself.

Greetz ,
Marcel

Ah Ha!

There are two separate issues to discuss about Advanced Release;
1. The sound of individual dampers being returned to the strings by releasing struck keys without the damper pedal being depressed.

2. The other has to do with holding all dampers up via the damper pedal. Playing a note or notes and then releasing the damper pedal.

Point #1 - The larger strings take some time to come to rest after being struck by the hammer and then dampened by the felt damper. This results in certain frequencies continuing to ring out for a short time. The frequencies present depend on how hard the string was struck, and if other notes were played at the same time creating additional overtones or harmonics on the vibrating strings.

Point #2 - With the damper pedal down, the number of frequencies amplified by the soundboard and open strings is much richer since all of the strings in the piano are responding. Releasing the damper pedal quickly will result in a faster silencing of all strings (except the very upper register that has no dampers). However releasing the damper pedal slowly will mute the frequencies of the sound at different rates.

NOTE: The damper pedal within the Pro Pedal unit features a continuous controller damper pedal allowing the Damper Physical Model to control the variable dampening of strings much more authentically than a simple momentary footswitch as is used on most other digital pianos.

As you said, this really should be experienced first hand. The purpose of the video is to simply point out the unique abilities of the Promega and RP series instruments made possible by our DRAKE microprocessor and the physical models running in that processor. Obviously a compressed mp3 file isn't the most effective way to determine the true sound of an instrument.

Anyway, I do hope you get the chance to test drive a Promega 2 or Promega 3 in person. I think you will be impressed once you actually play them.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 04-14-2005).]

Thanks Dave for replying so quickly, the big three could learn a lot from Gem's support.

I've yet to see another keyboard manufacturer having such good online support (this isn't even GEM's forum ).

You know what, I have to admit something, I don't know anything about acoustic pianos, I actually just played a few times on an acoustic in my 19 years on this planet, and I have yet to buy my first digital .
I've also watched the RP-800 video, very impressive sound, and fabulous playing.
What I would like to see though, are some higher quality WMA files of the Promegas (preferably at 128-192 kbits WMA V9.1), I think people will get a better impression of the sound quality .

Greetz ,
Marcel

Thanks for that. All while I am knee deep in editing the next video "QuikView Video of the Genesys Ensemble". It helps to take a break every now and then from video editing to clear my head and rest my eyes. And that also gives me the opportunity to check on things here and the other forums and e-mails.



Thanks again. this is turning into a nice editing break.



We do have Promega 3 WMA demos on the website but I am not sure at what resolution they were rendered. If they need to be re-done, that is a pretty easy request. I'll check into it.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

I am now the owner of a Promega 2 (and the superbe new Genesys XP) and wazza it is a truly great keyboard to play..when I got it home out acme all my old piano charts that I hadnt played in years, and about 4 hours later I surfaced for dinner..it is a joy to play and listen to and that Fazioli 10' grand? beautiful, and you may or may not be into them, but the Rhodes takes me back to my days with the Stage 73, it is that accurate, even to the little "twang" you get when you overstrike the key...if you like wazza i could sample up the promega 2 at say 320kb and send it to you if you have broadband, or maybe even a cd..in any case you will be very happy if you go for the Promega 2 (or the 3 if you prefer a slightly heavier feel on the keys)

Hi,

Dave, I'm looking forward watching that video, the Genesys is an excellent keyboard, unfortunately too expensive for me.
What would be really cool, would be a smaller, cheaper version of the Genesys (without the CD-drive, mp3, heavy speakersystem, vocal harmony, Harddisk etc.), something that would be able to compete with the PSR-3000 for instance, would be great IMHO.

I was just toying around recording piano stuff on my Korg, and I heard how awful I played .
Waay way bad timing, I don't think there's anything to do about it, I just suck .
On moments like that you just want to give up playing, for good .
Oh well...


Manic,
Thanks for offering to record some mp3's of the Promega, But I only have 3,5 MB's of e-mail space, and I don't think thats enough, Do you have an FTP-server? You would be able to upload those files to it.
Or you can send me these files thru MSN (e-mail = wazza@ismaf.nl).

Thanks & Greetz ,

Marcel aka the lousy pianist


[This message has been edited by Wazza (edited 04-14-2005).]

hey wazza, you are correct that is too small, files at that rez take about 8meg depending on time, not much point sending you one that only lasts for 30-50 seconds...dave may yet be able to get a higher rez demo up and as it is already on their server it has the advantage of streaming too...

peace, out

I will work on getting higher resoulution Windows Media files online over the weekend, and post after it is compleated.

Best Regards,


------------------
Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

In my opinion the Superior Grand of RD700SX is much better than Ultimate Grand.
Mainly they are different sounds: Ultimate is Yamaha-like, Superior is Steinway-like.
The only competitor that I find to RD700SX is Promega 3 (or SRX-11 expansion from Roland).

Okay, so I arranged this eariler than over the weekend. Now on the Generalmusic website is the complete Demo CD of the Promega 3 in 192k. Hopefully this will give you a better idea of the power of the Promega 3 and the DRAKE processor.
www.Generalmusic.us/Promega3.htm

Best Regards,

------------------
Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

Thanks Paul for putting these demos online, they sound much, much better.
It really shows how great the Promega sounds, I knew it sounded good, but I didn't know it sounded this good , Superb!
Thanks again ,

Greetz ,
Marcel

[This message has been edited by Wazza (edited 04-15-2005).]

Wazza, You are most welcome, honestly once you sit and play the instrument for 1/2 hour you'll fall in love (some it just takes minuates). Make sure you play with the FLT and the EQ to make it to your likings. Also, I would suggest putting the instrument on either Stretch Piano 1 or 2, as the default tuning is mean tone, which isn't as pleasing to the ears.

Best Regards,


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Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

o3bor: you seem very knowledgeable about Roland keyboards, and I have a feeling that you are related to Roland Italy. Nothing wrong with that, but if that's true maybe you can comment something about the analogies or differencies between the RD700SX Superior Grand and the piano sampled in the SRX-11 card: are they the same multisample or not? Marcel wrote that he could buy an SRX-11 and add it to his Fantom XR and thus have more or less an RD700XS: is he correct in his assumption?
Final question: if the Superior Grand and the SRX 11 new piano are NOT the same, is it at least true that they have the same number of samples (four stereo samples for each key, making a total of 8 samples x 88 keys, that is 704 samples?)
Thanks!
Andrea

FYI, Those video Demo's that Dave was working on, for the Genesys are now online.
http://www.generalmusic.us/GenesysEnsemble.htm

Best Regards,

------------------
Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

very very good job Dave.Most impressive. Did you record the sound from the instrument via the Camera's internal mic or was it plugged in direct through your system ?

Thanks. I am glad you liked it. The stereo audio outputs of the Genesys were plugged into a Mackie 1402VLZ mixer along with my lapel mic. However, the EQ was flat on the Genesys channels and no external effects processing was used so you are hearing the Genesys as pure as possible. The audio output from the mixer was plugged directly into a Sony mini-DV recording deck.

Best Regards,

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums