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#196753 - 10/27/06 09:41 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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If Yamaha did not intend the T2 to be a 'professional' instrument, they would not try to charge $4k for it. For that money, you should get a professional build quality, something that Yamaha have no problem finding for their MUCH less expensive Motif line. Face it, guys, you've been had....... Roland, Korg, Ketron, Wersi, nobody else expects you to put up with an inferior build quality on their top of the line arrangers....... As to Donny's used G70, all I can say is GET A CASE.... My G70 has been gigged extensively for over a year, up to 10 gigs a week, and looks like it came out of the box. No amount of build quality will help you from breaking knobs and sliders if you don't transport it safely. No wonder dnj goes through so many arrangers - he has to keep replacing the ones he's broken?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#196754 - 10/27/06 01:21 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
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O.K. You win. Nothing is as bad as Yamaha and nothing is as good as Roland. No matter what. Build quality, sounds, styles, songs, key feel, price, vocals, harmonizer, available peer support, on-line forums. Who needs multipads anyway? Who needs a break/fill button? I don't REALLY mind having to remember which two buttons to press for the ending I want. And I don't REALLY mind lifting 50 pounds every night. I don't REALLY need lyrics function for use with syles. I have a laptop. And a pretty good memory. I don't REALLY need a hard-disk recorder built-in. I can use the computer or extra hardware. I don't REALLY need a really large adjustable screen, I can wear glasses. I don't REALLY mind the one-touch settings resetting the keyboard mode to "beginner" every time I touch one. I don't really need any of this, but some of them are nice to have anyway.
Yamahas are mostly plastic, but I've never had one leave me stranded in 20 years, so I no longer even keep a backup. Ketron never went out, but I was always afraid it would. The G70 has locked up and had to be rebooted three times, all while I was in the middle of saving things to User Programs. But I don't REALLY mind doing it all over again, because I know that Roland is infallible. It must be something I'm doing wrong. I just hope it doesn't happen on the job while I'm using it.
I like many things about both lines, and dislike a few things about both lines, and have so stated, but obviously certain people don't want to hear my opinions, all coming from real-life experience, so for God's sake quit reading them. It's for sure I don't pay much attention to anyone else's opinions after I have used the kb in question myself.
This wonderful forum is wearing me out. I seem to be sinking to the level of "mine's better than your's". However that can't be true because I don't even own an arranger right now. ALL the mid and top-end arrangers are wonderful. None are perfect. None are terrible.
It's time for a short break. DonM
_________________________
DonM
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#196758 - 10/27/06 02:51 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Member
Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
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Fran,
When I spoke to the Roland tech support complaining about the OTS button on my G70 forcing single-finger chord recognition on me, the support person said that the G70 is mainly intended for the home users, who would typically use single-finger chords the most. I replied to that that their promo materials tout the board as the high=end professional instrument. The Roland guy did not reply to my statement, but after listening to my arguments about the fact that "memory" is supposed to recall only what it stores, he reluctantly said that he would file a report with Roland Italy, and my concern may or may not be addressed. So, even in Roland't thinking just because something is big and heavy, it does not automatically become a pro-quality instrument.
You said, shipped three times... Out of curiosity, how many times a month do you take your instrument to gigs? A professional instrument should withstand years of rigors of being moved to and from gigs without losing knobs or sliders. My G70 is practically new (I have not gigged with it yet), but I too am not feeling too comfy about the feel of the sliders and knobs.
I believe that the G70 still has the best keyboard bed out there, but the rest of it begs to stay home, rather than be taken to gigs.
Regards
_________________________
Regards, Alex
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#196760 - 10/27/06 04:12 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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DonM, I was in no way knocking Yamaha any harder than I knock all the others....... I simply commented on build quality. If I pay $4k for an instrument (especially one as studded with buttons as the T2) I want it to last as long as I play it. Hell, I can buy a REAL piano for that much that will last forever..... As anyone who reads my posts will know, there ARE many things about the T2 I (and most others) DO like. This does not make it perfect, and if you can't take anyone calling a spade a spade, you might not want to get involved in a thread where a member ASKS FOR OPINIONS. Mine is as valid as anyone else's, here. My G1000, after 9 years of constant gigging, was just sold to a friend in better condition (almost showroom) than the one he has now, which he has had for less time than me. My G70 will be sold in years to come, and I guarantee it will still be in tip top shape. A pro flight case is worth every penny you spend on it...... (and don;t move your keyboard if you are drunk! ) AlexK, you should know better than most that the chord recognition problem has been addressed in the E80, and is on it's way to us (along with many other fixes and enhancements) in a VERY shortly forthcoming new OS. I gig my G70 in and out of the car during the season (Mar-Oct) at least twice a day, many gigs a week. I play on a deck by the Gulf of Mexico 3-4 times a week. My G1000 did this for four years without a hint of corrosion or unreliable buttons and jacks. Take it from a full-time professional..... build quality is not there just to make you feel like you bought an expensive instrument. It matters.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#196761 - 10/27/06 06:37 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
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Diki, if you paid $4,000 for the T2, it was about a fourth too much. Mine was less than $3,000, delivered, with no tax and free financing. I was responding more to Fran than you. He can take it! Probably should have just been quite, as nothing constructive was to be gained. Peace, DonM
_________________________
DonM
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#196768 - 11/01/06 04:56 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Well said Nick, and I agree wholeheartedly. In all these years I've never had a button go bad, replaced a keypad or cracked the case on any of my Yamaha keyboards. And, I've never dropped one. BTW: A $60,000 Corvette is made of plastic (fiberglass), and no one every complained they were not built well. Cheers, Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#196770 - 11/01/06 08:57 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
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I was driving my 66 Vette, years ago, and got hit by lightening. Don't know if it was good that it was glass, or bad. But all the wiring was fried, and I wasn't! Back to keyboards, I'd rather have lightweight plastic than heavy metal (even in music), but then I don't keep 'em very long either way, and I take really good care of my gear. I've found that if a fight breaks out you can get more speed running with the plastic ones under your arm. Wasn't it metal parts that blew off the space shuttle? Maybe if they'd used plastic . . . Naw, that's not even relevant!
DonM
_________________________
DonM
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#196774 - 11/01/06 01:10 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Fran, Lexan is actually stronger that steel for it's weight, which is one of the reasons that many inner city schools now use them as windows. You can hit them with a concrete block and they will not crack or break. Most of the space-age plastics are much stronger than steel as well. Combinations of boron, graphite and fiberglass are now used in aircraft manufacturing because it's lighter and stronger than traditional aluminum. I think the only reason some keyboard manufacturers still use steel for their housings is because steel is a hell of a lot cheaper and can be stretch formed--not for strength. Cheers, Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#196777 - 11/01/06 03:33 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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DonM...... that's my whole point, but you certainly wouldn't get that impression from the rabid defense of ANY criticism of the T2 here at SZ. Build quality, closed format for the sampler, 61 keys, very slow sampler load times (comparatively), the T2 has it's flaws. If you want to look at my wishlist for the G70, go here; http://www.selskabsmusikeren.dk/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=60&board=13.0 They ALL have flaws and areas that deserve improvement. I'm just a little tired of T2 lovers that can't admit there is room for improvement. Hell, I'd buy one in a flash if it had 76 non toy-like keys, and they fix the sampler (I need Akai import like Korg and Roland and Kurzweil and just about every software sampler does). Maybe there is a secret site on the web they don't tell anyone else about, where they can vent THEIR frustrations, and no others get to hear it, thus propagating the myth the T2 is PERFECT! Anyway, please ignore this post, because my opinions ARE garbage.....!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#196778 - 11/01/06 06:16 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1107
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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Originally posted by Diki: DonM...... that's my whole point, but you certainly wouldn't get that impression from the rabid defense of ANY criticism of the T2 here at SZ.
Build quality, closed format for the sampler, 61 keys, very slow sampler load times (comparatively), the T2 has it's flaws. If you want to look at my wishlist for the G70, go here; http://www.selskabsmusikeren.dk/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=60&board=13.0
They ALL have flaws and areas that deserve improvement. I'm just a little tired of T2 lovers that can't admit there is room for improvement. Hell, I'd buy one in a flash if it had 76 non toy-like keys, and they fix the sampler (I need Akai import like Korg and Roland and Kurzweil and just about every software sampler does).
Maybe there is a secret site on the web they don't tell anyone else about, where they can vent THEIR frustrations, and no others get to hear it, thus propagating the myth the T2 is PERFECT!
Anyway, please ignore this post, because my opinions ARE garbage.....!"Hell, I'd buy one in a flash if it had 76 non toy-like keys" If thats not garbage then what is?
_________________________
Yamaha PSR SX900 / Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Korg PA700 / Roland GW-8L / Roland Fantom O6
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#196779 - 11/01/06 06:27 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Hey Fran, There's one other plastic product I forgot about--kevlar. They make lightweight boat hulls and bullet-proof vests from this stuff. Much stronger and lighter than steel, easy to work with, and it can be molded into any shape or form. Neat! Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#196781 - 11/01/06 11:23 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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Nick, I'm not really sure what your beef is......
Have you actually PLAYED a G70 (or G1000 or A70 or G800)? Do you honestly mean to tell me that the T2's keybed doesn't feel lightweight and flimsy in comparison?
Now, you may prefer a much lighter action, no problem with that, but even most G70 detractors will grudgingly admit that the keyboard FEELS nice.....
Perhaps, to the very best players out there (and the worst!), the feel of a keyboard doesn't make any difference, but me, I like all the help I can get! Having to play one for 8 hours a day in season, the feel and response of a key-bed makes the difference between playing your keyboard, and just hitting the keys.
BTW, Nick, it's difficult to tell from your last two abbreviated posts at me whether you are just being combative, or whether you actually have a point to make other than 'T2 good..... others bad.....' Perhaps you could string a couple of sentences together and explain why you prefer flimsy keyboards?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#196782 - 11/01/06 11:52 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1107
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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Originally posted by Diki: Nick, I'm not really sure what your beef is......
Have you actually PLAYED a G70 (or G1000 or A70 or G800)? Do you honestly mean to tell me that the T2's keybed doesn't feel lightweight and flimsy in comparison?
Now, you may prefer a much lighter action, no problem with that, but even most G70 detractors will grudgingly admit that the keyboard FEELS nice.....
Perhaps, to the very best players out there (and the worst!), the feel of a keyboard doesn't make any difference, but me, I like all the help I can get! Having to play one for 8 hours a day in season, the feel and response of a key-bed makes the difference between playing your keyboard, and just hitting the keys.
BTW, Nick, it's difficult to tell from your last two abbreviated posts at me whether you are just being combative, or whether you actually have a point to make other than 'T2 good..... others bad.....' Perhaps you could string a couple of sentences together and explain why you prefer flimsy keyboards? Im not here to fight with anyone, I dont pick on keyboards or other brands. Im sure on alot of occasions most people in their heads really want to say something but they hold back becuase they have whats called respect and thought for other people. I too am one of those people, but it takes someone to speak up sometimes in order to get a point accross and something to generate. Ill tell you what I honestly thought of the roland demo of the new OS v3? The acoustic guitars from the marvellous "guitar mode" sound like the 10 year old XG 12 string guitar patch, most Yamaha owners will know exactly what i am talking about but will probably have a quiet chuckle to themselve knowing im right... But I originally did not go and post that purely for the fact that there are a lot of proud owners who would be highly offended, and I have respect for that and other peoples'choices and preferences. You on the other hand constantly voice your opinion to bash the yamaha 'build quality'. Voice your opinion as much as you want it is a free world and this is the internet. But by posting something on a forum you are vurtually saying it directly to alot of people who read this forum every day, and most in their minds are thinking "JUST SHUT UP MATE". But they dont post it becuase they dont want to cause any trouble. If you like your harder keys and super heavy / strong 'build quality' then fine, tell us how much you love it, GOOD FOR YOU. but continue to use yamaha as an example as Shit build quality, you will have to put up with people like me who will always tell you your full of shit and that opinion is worth RUBBISH. SHOW US SOME PROOF! If the admin wants me banned from this site for this post, fine do it, I have no regrets and I will continue to post my opinion when someone continuously makes such bald statements over and over like a broken record! Cheers, Nick
_________________________
Yamaha PSR SX900 / Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Korg PA700 / Roland GW-8L / Roland Fantom O6
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#196783 - 11/02/06 12:17 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
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now, that is getting way too "hot"! i can not help posting here, even if i eventualy don't care much about defending or praising a certain brand or product. i just feel bad seeing good people getting too inflame over such things! really, friends, each one of us have his/her own oppinions, which may or may not be similar, but is it worthy getting so passioned about it? i know this sound obsolete, but please, can you guys be more calm about everything?
well, in the end, what matters is what did i/you/they learned from whatever is posted here.....
_________________________
Yamaha S770, Studio One 3, EMU 0404USB, ESI, ATH, Dell. And others.
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#196784 - 11/02/06 12:33 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1107
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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Originally posted by adimatis: now, that is getting way too "hot"! i can not help posting here, even if i eventualy don't care much about defending or praising a certain brand or product. i just feel bad seeing good people getting too inflame over such things! really, friends, each one of us have his/her own oppinions, which may or may not be similar, but is it worthy getting so passioned about it? i know this sound obsolete, but please, can you guys be more calm about everything?
well, in the end, what matters is what did i/you/they learned from whatever is posted here..... your right, Im sorry for cuasing such a strife, but I feel strong about what I said I feel as if I spoke to more than just myself... no regrets. back to making music
_________________________
Yamaha PSR SX900 / Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Korg PA700 / Roland GW-8L / Roland Fantom O6
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#196789 - 11/02/06 09:48 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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Sorry, Nick, you are talking to the wrong guy. I am the first to criticize my own G70, I am very happy to admit there are things about it I would like improved, and I don't mind a bit you posting with your honest assessment of it's sound, or OS or weight(!) or anything you feel like critiquing.....
But I would never call your opinion 'garbage'..... You are as entitled to it as I am to mine. It's this belittling of anyone that has ANYTHING negative to say about the almighty T2 that is so frustrating, and then to justify it by saying you would never belittle anyone else's arranger that is just doublespeak..... That is EXACTLY what you are doing by saying someone's opinion in 'garbage'
As you can read in the above posts, I am not the only one who prefers the G70 build quality. Must be a lot of garbage out there........
You see, Nick, this thread was humming along nicely until you decided to call another member's opinion 'garbage'. Imagine how things would have got if someone simply replied in as puerile a manner as you that, no, it was YOUR opinion that was 'garbage'. You probably would not have liked that.
I know I didn't......
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#196790 - 11/02/06 12:15 PM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Ahhh, "Deja Vu all over again". Well, at least I've learned a few things (and isn't that what this board is all about), such as;
1. The words "arranger keyboard", by their simple utterance, can elicit such emotional responses as "go f*** yourself" and other well thought-out and colorful phrases.
2. Intellect flies out the window when one's feelings are hurt.
3. There IS a "perfect" keyboard; it's called "the one I own".
4. Manufacturers are listening intently and Chord Sequencers will appear on all 2007 models (even those under $500).
5. Judging from most of the music posted here, 61 vs 76 keys, keybed feel, and build-quality is the least of most members problems.
6. And from the "where are you from" post, apparently the US is not the capitol of the world (and especially not the arranger keyboard world).
I'm proposing that some of that energy used to create these highly entertaining but ultimately useless posts, be diverted to practicing scales.
From a (partly) reformed "nasty-post" writer,
Peace,
chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#196797 - 11/04/06 01:09 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Member
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 104
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Thanks for youtr feedback - I am still in a "don't know" situation - I am currently listening to the Wersi Ikarus - and it sounds really good - I just don't know much about them and there is only one dealer here in the UK so does that tell me something?? I still have tyhe T2 and the E80 - I am using the E80 for the band stuff and the T2 is gathering dust at home - I know the T2 is a great instrument but for what I play the E80 is better. I have thought about the G70 but I wonder if the G70 is going to be just like the E80 with extra keys? What improvements/enhancements has the V3 made to the G70? Thanks again for the post, Regards Mark Originally posted by Diki: Back on topic, here..... I am still interested in hearing if you have considered anything other than another arranger as your 76 note keyboard. The E80's operating system allows you to address external keyboards from the Style and SMF player (and, to a limited extent, the Keyboard Parts), so you could still use a Triton or MotifES and have them communicate in either direction.
Choosing a workstation as your 76-er dramatically increases your choices (and dramatically lowers the potential cost, too!). Especially if you cover more contemporary and pop tunes, there's a lot about the Triton/Motif line that can make you sound hipper than most arrangers, especially if you can drive their arpeggiators from your arranger's MIDI clock.....
To be honest, in your situation, I think I would have kept the T2 and used a G70 (especially now that OS3 has seriously improved the sound and styles) as your 76-er. But water under the bridge........ [This message has been edited by jonesyboy (edited 11-04-2006).]
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#196798 - 11/04/06 02:23 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5347
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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Hello Mark The G70 V3 adds the additional features that are available on the E80, and also adds refinement to the styles and sounds. Wersi is a small company that has been in existence since 1969, and have always produced premium rate instruments, (They prefer to trade like Mercedes’ with limited dealerships rather then Ford which has a dealer on virtually every street corner) there instruments have also normally been innovative, and have introduced new features much sooner then mainstream manufactures, (Although they did loose the plot a bit in the nineties) they also believe that their customers should not be forced to change there boards every 2 years just to get the latest features. If you purchased one of there new instruments in 2000, it can be upgraded to the latest spec for a reasonable cost. (Considerably cheaper then the amount of money lost by trading in old boards for new) Most of the current demo discs do not feature the latest software OAS 7, which is a considerable upgrade in both features and sound compared to previous versions. You also don’t have to buy additional sounds from Wersi, as you can use Akai samples and VST instruments. If you want any further information just ask. (I currently run OAS 6 and when I get the time I will be upgrading to OAS 7)
Bill
BTW Whereabouts in the UK are you.
[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 11-04-2006).]
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#196799 - 11/04/06 02:58 AM
Re: Best 76 Key
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Member
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 104
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Hi Bill, I am in the West Midlands - thanks for your reply - if you had no objectionh I would really like an opportunity to have a quick chat with you - my email is markjones01@sky.com if you have no objection perhaps you could let me have your contact no. and I can call you, Thanks Mark Originally posted by abacus: Hello Mark The G70 V3 adds the additional features that are available on the E80, and also adds refinement to the styles and sounds. Wersi is a small company that has been in existence since 1969, and have always produced premium rate instruments, (They prefer to trade like Mercedes’ with limited dealerships rather then Ford which has a dealer on virtually every street corner) there instruments have also normally been innovative, and have introduced new features much sooner then mainstream manufactures, (Although they did loose the plot a bit in the nineties) they also believe that their customers should not be forced to change there boards every 2 years just to get the latest features. If you purchased one of there new instruments in 2000, it can be upgraded to the latest spec for a reasonable cost. (Considerably cheaper then the amount of money lost by trading in old boards for new) Most of the current demo discs do not feature the latest software OAS 7, which is a considerable upgrade in both features and sound compared to previous versions. You also don’t have to buy additional sounds from Wersi, as you can use Akai samples and VST instruments. If you want any further information just ask. (I currently run OAS 6 and when I get the time I will be upgrading to OAS 7)
Bill
BTW Whereabouts in the UK are you.
[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 11-04-2006).]
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