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#170307 - 04/15/07 12:20 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
What we often forget about as older adults is the time that we spent when we were younger, learning to play, learning how to use whatever keyboards we had at the time. Years.....

Now, we don't seem to be happy to put that kind of time in any more, despite actually NEEDING more time as we are older and learn less fast. And then we bitch because we don't understand the latest stuff! Hardly surprising, given that attitude....

I've seen adults give up on trying to learn to play piano after 6 months. Took me YEARS to get good - as a kid, when I learned faster than I do now. If you are not prepared to take the time (however long it is) or put in the effort (however much it is) to learn a new skill, don't bother trying.

But don't blame the manufacturer for not spoon-feeding you. You've got to feed yourself, first....

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#170308 - 04/15/07 12:24 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 42592
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
When you buy a car does it come with someone to tell you how to drive it? When you buy a loaf of bread does it come with a little gray haired lady telling you how to make a sandwich? What the hell folks?

What happened to "buyer responsibility?" I have NEVER in my life bought a keyboard and expected the maker to "TEACH" me how to use the unit outside of the manual. Diki's right! This 21'st century "show me how" is getting out of hand IMO. People are expecting way too much.

Seriously what's the next step..., a surgical implant of a USB port on the side of your head so that you can just download the info you need straight into your dome? People just don't seem to have the desire to "learn" these days. Everyone's looking for the quick fix, or some way to skip the "real work".

Squeak


Exactly my point ....ignorance will trickle down to slow progression of what we all yearn for better and better products...why? because sales falter because many dont know enough about the products to buy let alone learn how to use them Its time for that to change eh?

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#170309 - 04/15/07 12:29 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4683
Loc: West Virginia
Posted by Diki:
--------------------------------------------
But don't blame the manufacturer for not spoon-feeding you. You've got to feed yourself, first....
--------------------------------------------

Amen to that Diki! Like I said there's "buyer responsibility" as well.

Dnj,
I also understand your point too, however it really takes a good deal of work to produce these videos too. I can't imagine someone spending $2199 on a Motif XS6, and then dropping an addition $20-$40 per instructional video on how to use the thing. Again you have to have an uderstanding of "synth basics" when you buy these things.

I will say this... All the people here who own A Korg PA-80/50, PA1X/Pro/Elite, and PA-800 have a pretty serious synth in their hands on top of a good arranger. Korg has some really freakin indepth voice editing on the PA range.

Korg in my opinion with the PA series has done an AWESOME job at blending the editing power of a synth with the capabilites of an arranger.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#170310 - 04/15/07 12:37 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4683
Loc: West Virginia
Dnj,
You're proving my point man. There is a definitive line between the traditional arranger player and synth player. For example I know arranger players in their 50's and synth players in their 50's. The synth guys I know in their 50's can run a synth/workstation blindfolded, and know all about sampling, voice editing, midi, you name it. They continuely educated themselves with the release of new technology used in synths.

I used the example of players in their 50's because Diki pointed out as we get older we take a different approach to how we learn, and how much time we want to dedicate to learning something new.

It's not the new technology that's killing people IMO. It's the "crossover" that's the key element here. It's bringing the "arranger" player over into the synth side. It also goes both ways. You have to educate yourself if you choose to take this route. It shouldn't be up to the manufacturer to provide you with all the know-how for this transition.

It's the same thing for a synth player going into arrangers. They need to educate themselves to as to how an arranger functions and operates.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-15-2007).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#170311 - 04/15/07 12:41 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6177
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:


Seriously what's the next step..., a surgical implant of a USB port on the side of your head so that you can just download the info you need straight into your dome? People just don't seem to have the desire to "learn" these days. Everyone's looking for the quick fix, or some way to skip the "real work".

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-15-2007).]


Actually, that started when we made the transition from acoustic instruments to synths....then to workstations to arrangers to SMF's to mp3's to ...... DJ's to ?????listeners???.

Sorry, but this sounds like one of those "circular" debates that goes absolutely nowhere.

BTW, auto manufacturers don't teach you to drive because 99.9% of buyers have a license that says they are already a "seasoned pro". And for the record, most airplane manufacturers won't let you buy a (new) plane for personal use unless you or a designated pilot goes through a factory or factory-approved course of instruction (plus type-specific FAA certification if it's a high-performance, turboprop, or jet airplane).

In any case, your success (or lack, thereof) in the music business will likely not be decided by a resolution to the problem stated in this post (whatever that was). JMO.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#170312 - 04/15/07 12:44 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
The thing is, Donny, have you ever taken a week and said to yourself, this week I am going to learn about voice programming? I am not going to learn any new tunes, I am not going to tweak any styles, I am just going to concentrate on this one thing for at least a week.

Be methodical, sort out WHAT you want to learn an go about it in a methodical way. Lessons, when you were a kid, forced you into not being a gadfly, and concentrating on one task. That level of focus, even at a more elderly age level, will get you anywhere you want to go.

Find someone with good programming skills to SHOW you how to program. No DVD is going to have the ability to respond to YOU, and your learning needs. Go back to the principles that got you your current level of ability, and repeat them. And just be patient.

No-one is an expert after watching a DVD either. It still takes time and practice.

Manufacturers have a hard time determining what level of skill to aim an instructional DVD at. Too easy, and only complete novices will buy it. Too technical, and novices are left out. The capabilities of most TOTL keyboards now are beyond a simple DVD. To fully understand all the capabilities of a MotifXS would take a college course...!

It is FAR better to figure out for yourself what area of programming YOU want to improve first, and then search out the information you need, either on the web, or through a tutor. And then be patient, methodical and focused...

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#170313 - 04/15/07 01:02 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4683
Loc: West Virginia
Posted by Cgiles:
--------------------------------------------
BTW, auto manufacturers don't teach you to drive because 99.9% of buyers have a license that says they are already a "seasoned pro".
--------------------------------------------

EXACTLY!!! So the synth makers don't teach you to use these (nor should it be their responsibility) because a LARGE percentage of the buyers "already know how to use them", and are "seasoned players" Same principle applies here.

If you're not part of the percentage that knows how, then simply "LEARN HOW".. That's why I said if you want to get into it get a budget synth to learn the basics. Hell the PSR's have basic voice editing. The Korg PA series is a freakin beast when it comes to voice editing on an arranger platform IMO. Roland is also good.

That's what shocks me. So many people here "already" have the tools infront of them. They just have to open the tool box and see what's in there. Your arrangers can be excellent learning tools to grasp the concepts of voice editing. Again, if you have a Korg PA series (I've read the manuals) you've got a good synth engine already in your hands.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-15-2007).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#170314 - 04/15/07 01:16 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 42592
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
The thing is, Donny, have you ever taken a week and said to yourself, this week I am going to learn about voice programming? I am not going to learn any new tunes, I am not going to tweak any styles, I am just going to concentrate on this one thing for at least a week.

Be methodical, sort out WHAT you want to learn an go about it in a methodical way. Lessons, when you were a kid, forced you into not being a gadfly, and concentrating on one task. That level of focus, even at a more elderly age level, will get you anywhere you want to go.

Find someone with good programming skills to SHOW you how to program. No DVD is going to have the ability to respond to YOU, and your learning needs. Go back to the principles that got you your current level of ability, and repeat them. And just be patient.

No-one is an expert after watching a DVD either. It still takes time and practice.

Manufacturers have a hard time determining what level of skill to aim an instructional DVD at. Too easy, and only complete novices will buy it. Too technical, and novices are left out. The capabilities of most TOTL keyboards now are beyond a simple DVD. To fully understand all the capabilities of a MotifXS would take a college course...!

It is FAR better to figure out for yourself what area of programming YOU want to improve first, and then search out the information you need, either on the web, or through a tutor. And then be patient, methodical and focused...


Diki.....I understand your point and appreciate your reply....all I am saying is that every tool we can access is a plus all around....everyone has a different learning ability......there is no down side to offering help, instruction, to anyone that is willing to achieve it...if you can do it on your own that fine too....that 50ish theory I dont buy into...I was playing & recording with Synths & keyboards way before I performed with an arranger or anyone ever heard of them .....but of course back then we self taught ourselves because there was no alternative ....in these times we have so many vehicles to learn why not take advantage of it?

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#170315 - 04/15/07 01:22 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4683
Loc: West Virginia
Dnj, I agree with ya man, but as a "user" you have to dig in and get your hands dirty yourself. DVD instructionals and so on can only teach you so much. You can't rely to heavily on the manufactuer to provide all the knowledge for you.

Not too long ago, an individual posted on the Zone not under "arrangers" but elsewhere about the Roland Juno-D. This was their first synth, and one hell of a good synth to "start with". I contacted the person via email, and later spent a good deal of time with the person on the phone explaining the basics. In all my explaining nothing will prove more valuable to this person than "hands on" and educating themself about the technology, functions, and what they do.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-15-2007).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#170316 - 04/15/07 01:29 PM Re: What's going on? (sign of the times..possibly)
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Donny, if you have extensive experience with synths in the past, what is so all-fired difficult about current ones? There really hasn't been THAT much innovation in the last decade or so. You just have to learn whatever 'language' your synth manufacturer chooses. I for one am fed up of each different manufacturer naming the same things different names! One maker's 'element' is another maker's multi-sample, etc.. You know what I mean....

Once you have the parlance, the all put their pants on the same way, basically. It's not until you get into modeling that things start to get seriously strange.

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