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#146520 - 06/14/05 05:53 PM Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hello

I again find myself interested in trying out an arranger soft synth set-up.

As it is, I am planning on getting a decent laptop very soon. I was at first just interested in using it for lead sheets.

Now that I start thinking about it, if I can find some software that I like, is relativily easy to use and sounds good, then, hey why not? I figure that this would be one arranger system that as better sounds and stuff came out, I could hopefully continue updating just the way I want it. Plus the idea of a 6 pound laptop and a 6 pound midi controller keyboard just sounds way too appealling to not at least give this a fair trial.

So, Frank, Rikki, Bluzeplayer and all you other soft synth techies I would sure appreciate some input on this. I have done a search and have a very basic idea from former posts on what this is all about, but it's a lot of bits and pieces to try and put together for me.

First I'll tell you what it is I want to end up doing. I would like to be able to sit down and play this soft synth just like I do on my Tyros. Pick a style, pick from a bunch of my favorite user voices or Registration memory and just start playing. I would like to be able to have ease of going between the different style variations and also want to be able to change solo voices quickly on the fly.

I am trying Jammer Live. I like it that it was so easy to just start poking buttons without doing any reading on how to do it. I like the idea that there are a bunch of ready made styles for it. Although, I didn't think a lot of those styles sounded that great, but that may make a difference if I am using Hypercanvas, Super Quartet, Sound Canvas, etc.

I like the appearance of Live Styler. It looks like it would be easy to work visually. Although, this one I am going to have to download the manual and do some reading before I could figure out step one.

One man band seems to have a lot of good functions on it. I will need time to test it out.

I've got a list of more questions and points but I didn't want to overload with too many questions.

What's the easiest way for me to approach this using the info I've given so far?

Thanx
Scott
http://www.ScottLMusic.com

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#146521 - 06/14/05 08:57 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott,
a software setup is not going to be as straight forward to use as your Tyros.
OMB & Live Styler both can use psr .sty files but unlike an arranger keyboard, they don't use a specific soundsource which has it's pro's & cons. Good part is you have the choice of softsynth/hardware synth you want to use, be it an inexpensive soundfont setup like mine or a top quality setup like Franks. Not so good, is that you have to tweak the styles so that they sound good with your choice of soundsource.

Tweaking the styles isn't a hassle for me as I use relatively few. Style collecting was a bit of an obbession of mine. Wasn't till I started using OMB that I realized how few styles I really used. Now I have a few favourites that can be used with a variety of songs, I just create a new intro, sometimes an ending that suits the song, this way it's not quite as obvious that I'm using the same style for a number of songs. I just add styles as I need them. I mainly play piano voice for melody.

I personally prefer OMB software, mainly because of it's style editing functions. Haven't tried Live Styler recently. I like Jammer Live, but the styles don't suit the music I like to play. Even though you can create styles for the program, I found it a tad confusing,and didn't persevere.( Haven't totally given up on it yet).

Laptop 512mb
OMB software
ASIO4All driver
midi yoke
Forte Ensemble
Live Synth Pro/ or sfz / or sfz+
Soundfonts/ Hypercanvas
Clavinova Controller/Lead Melody Piano Voice

If you want to play around with fonts try downloading Synthfont ( midifile player ) http://www.synthfont.com/
and sgm128 soundfonts http://www.sf2midi.com/index.php?page=sdet&id=5038
and try playing a few midifiles via this set up.


best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
[B]Hello

I
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146522 - 06/15/05 08:37 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
TresorTX Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 95
Loc: Dallas, Boston, Orlando
Thanks for asking this question Scott, I am in the same boat with wanting to explore the world of SoftSynths but have not idea where even to start learning about it. Questions such as, Is it practical or difficult to use in a performance environment, or should it be used to compliment an existing arranger workstation or is it meant to function as replacement to an arranger? What about the quality of sounds? Do external sound fonts need to be purchased in order for the thing to really sound decent? So many questions... and sometime just feel to dumb to ask. I'm also looking for a good starting point.

Thx, Russ
_________________________
Russ Bolduc
russbolduc@tx.rr.com
817-714-0488

PSR S900
Korg PA1XPRO
Kurzweil PC3X
Logitech Z

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#146523 - 06/15/05 12:30 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
I found it extremely difficult to setup, but your mileage may vary. I didn't think I was that dumb when it came to software, but I was wrong.
If you try to setup Live Styler (unless it's been changed) the note numbers are totally off and you need to do trial and error to find the split points. When I get home on the weekend I could give you the split numbers.
I did eventually get Live Styler to work and OMB is still giving me one problem. So the OMB software is not configured properly.
I am using using OMB to play styles, and I am very happy with the results, but have yet to find decent lead voices that are as good as My Roland EM20 or Yamaha PSR550. I have not given up yet, but this is a slow process.
It would be desirable to have 76 note controller keyboard.(I don't have this)
My softsynth setup:
512MB ram
OMB/Live Styler arranger software
Synergy GS Sound bank
Soundblaster Live card
Roland EM20 arranger as controller.
2.1 sound system. Amazing bass.
Good luck, patience and perserverence.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#146524 - 06/15/05 12:45 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
"Is it practical or difficult to use in a performance environment,"
Can't answer that question because I don't play live. that's one for Bluzeplayer.
"or should it be used to compliment an existing arranger workstation or is it meant to function as replacement to an arranger?"
I am using my setup at the moment to enhance my arranger, because my arranger has only 1 variation and you cannot load new styles. Eventually I would like it to replace the arranger completely.
"What about the quality of sounds?"
That is totally dependent on the quality of your soundfonts/vst/etc.
"Do external sound fonts need to be purchased in order for the thing to really sound decent?"
There are a lot of free fonts available, but if you want high quality sounds, you would have to pay for them. It all depends on YOUR definition of decent. I haven't found any inexpensive lead voices that I find decent.
"So many questions... and sometime just feel to dumb to ask. I'm also looking for a good starting point."
Ask away, that's what Synthzone is for. I feel really dumb too, but you would be surprised how many other members are benefiting from the answers to those dumb question.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#146525 - 06/15/05 01:50 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
You could do a search on this forum to find all the components of my system. The search words you could use are flr2004, flr2005, etc.

In general, it is not to difficult to setup a system to meet your needs. It does take considerable upfront effort to get it all setup and working (acquiring and installing the software - effects, samples, host and so on). Plus you need to pay attention to your hardware (keyboard/controller and computer/soundcard).

I have used my system many times in a live performance situations without difficulties. Yes, it is true that the control surface is not as good as hardware based solutions, e.g., Tyros or others. I got use to the shortcomings and live with them to enjoy vastly superior sounds. My system is expensive - very expensive, e.g., my saxophones costs around $350. I just bought EastWest Colossus at $995. As you can see it quickly adds up but it is worth it. There is nothing more delightful than to sit down and play a jazz combo with a very very very very good piano, jazz guitar, bass and drums.

To equal the quality of the common hardware based arranger keyboards would of course cost less than such keyboards (assuming you already have a computer).

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#146526 - 06/15/05 01:55 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Why bother?
I have limited funds and an environmentalist to boot. Upgrading a keybed, amplifier, speaker, os, styles, voices to a new keybed, amplifier, speaker, os, styles, voices just to get 2 new voices is ludicrous. I have done this.
When it is all setup, and working, I can upgrade a voice by just upgrading a voice. Lower cost, less consumerism, no enviromental impact.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#146527 - 06/16/05 07:26 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
It can be relatively simple or it can be as complex as you want.

As far as the "free soundfont" issue goes, my opinion is that for me, several make for excellent arranger section or backing instruments, and then you can add quality voices for lead instruments. Good free soundfonts include Magic SF V2, SGM 128 & 180, Real Font 2.1, and there are others.

I think what often gets overlooked here is that your PSR's, Rolands, etc, come preset with effects and everything already set to go "out of the box" Try this.. Turn all of the effects off in your arranger, and see if the styles still sound good. I bet they don't. Well most of the Sf's come "dry" as well, so you see what happens here.

So how do I fix this ? I use OMB, and route it's output to Xlutop Chainer via a virtual midi cable ( Maple ). I open my SF's up in a SF host ( SFZ+ in my case ), and open that up in XL Chainer ( Vst host app ). Chainer also hosts effects that play in real time with the soundfont app. I have quite a few high quality effects, but even some of the freeware effects from Kjaerhaus, Classic, Frazier, and Mda can be rather good. Makes all the difference in the world.

Ax far as lead voices go, I'm a synth nut, so Pro53, Pentagon, Absynth, Korg Legacy, and a few others work well for me. For Guitars, Dasample Electro Acoustic and Music Labs Real Guitar as well as the Sonic Implants Telecaster and PRS offerings ( again the last 2 are soundfonts and benefit nicely from add on effects ). Organs are covered by NI's B-4, while electric basses are handled nicely by Steinbergs VB1 ( freeware btw ).

In contrast, my Motif ES6 is a nice all around workstation, yet I think I can surpass almost any voice on it sonically in the software realm. The softsynths I listed above by far surpass ( for me ) what is available on the ES6. No it isn't cheap, but inexpensive was not the criteria for me. Quality sounds that don't necessarily sound like typical sampled kb sounds was priority one.

AJ
_________________________
AJ

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#146528 - 06/16/05 11:13 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
For me it's the 101 questions of getting started. Finding the basic steps to just make it at least seem worth the effort to pursue this. My wife and I seem to have a difficult time getting over the initial getting it rolling stage.

Tuesday night I had the results I mentioned in my openning post.

I decided to have my wife help me with this yesterday as she is my computer guru. She has some training in operating computers. She also built my present computer. However, working with soft synth stuff is new to both of us. Very frustrating indeed.

Not knowing what all the terms mean and how to start I suppose is the main issue.

So, last night Jen tried to help out. Things were not working as smoothly as it did the first night for me.

Things crashing and locking up. Instructions that are seemingly not user friendly. I think the people making these programs are techies and what seems like easy instructions to them is not clear to the beginner lay person.

We mentioned last night why we stopped trying this the last time and why we were not going to try this again. I would hate to quit if there is really something in this for me, but at this stage, I guess I just don't know if it's really worth it for me.

I would be willing to bet the above are experienced by a lot of people.

What I think I want to do is to be able to get my Tyros to work as the controller which we have been unable to do. I would like to be able to try the 3 arranger softwares with Hypercanvas as the sounds used in the styles and for solo voices. Sounds like a simple enough request to me.

Any suggestions on how to just get going to get some success to make it worthwhile to continue?

Thanx
Scott



[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 06-16-2005).]

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#146529 - 06/16/05 12:14 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Musikman4Christ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 17
Loc: USA
Right now, I am using OMB 7.1 with a Yamaha Motif ES7. ITs 76 keys, so it really helps out when splitting the keyboard for the left part that will be used for Chord recognition. I also choose a differnt Sound for the left side of the keyboard split so that it plays as I change chords. I mostly choose Piano mixed with strings. It sounds really awsome!

For the right side of the Keyboard split, I have another two splits.
One one I have lead voice setup for Channel 3 I think. I have Saxophone setup for that one, using one of the available PLG150-VL synth cards for the MOtif ES.
For the Other Split, I have another Lead voice setup. The reason, Im saying this, is because OMB truly works awsome with all the built in sounds of the Yamaha Motif ES.

Just last night I recorded a complete song in one pass with OMB and the ES.
This is the main reason I love OMB. I can record its midi Output directly to all the sixteen midi tracks of the MOtif ES in one single pass. Once I have all those midi tracks on the ES with the Song information I played in realtime from OMB, then all I do is disconnect OMB from the ES, (internal MIDI switch on the ES) and playback my whole song on the ES.

The awsome thing now, is that everything I played on OMB, bass, drums, fills, everything, including leads, are in their respective midi track on my ES! Yep!! Now all I have to do is edit the tracks if I have to. If not, then thats it. Song is finished.

I can now whole heartedly recommend OMB either to record in the studio or to play live.

The cool thing too, is that the Yamaha Motif ES drumkits, I believe like 40 of them all, respect the GM standard. This means that no matter what drumkit you choose, you sounds will sound right. Like the song I did last night, I didnt like the GM drumkit, so once I finished the recording, I went to sound selection, changed the drumkit to an awsome Rock Stereo kit, and saved my mix.
Now on playback that kit plays back the entire drum track!
Same goes for all the other midi tracks. If you want a different sound, just choose it and thats it.

The only sounds I have had problems with are the megavoices for Bass and guitar. Sometimes they dont sound right so I choose something else. But thats it. I have to learn how to tweak the mega voices so they sound right with the recorded song.

If you are going to get a Laptop, and dont wanna deal with software issues etc etc... Get a Yamaha Motif ES6. Its much smaller than my ES7. the ES6 has only 61 keys but still can be used fine bigtime. Since I use the PC keyboard to select my variations, fills, endings, intros, etc etc, I dont really care if I have a 76 key synth or 61 keys.

But since youre going to get a laptop, you can get the ES, buy the Mlan16e option, which turns your ES into a complete Digital soundcard with analog inputs, and you can send you voice and instruments directly to your laptop via a single FIREWIRE cable. Yep. ONE CABLE MAN.
you can send MIDI, up to four midi Ports with 16 midi channels each!! Thats a lot of channels man.

ANd you can send up to 16 audio tracks from your Motif ES digitally too!!

I dont work for yamaha man, but I know what I have and I know what it can do. I truly beleive that Hardware and software can live along now with peace, so you can have the best of both worlds. Hardware synth, software synths, and record to your laptop live. Or use OMB, record it to your Motif live, send it to your PC live as audio. Oh man, the possibilities are mind boggling!!!!

God bless you man, what ever you decide to do, I wish you the best!

Cheers,

Musikman
_________________________
Peace,

Musikman
Email:
Musikman4Christ@yahoo.com

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#146530 - 06/16/05 01:50 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hello

Thought this through a little. It seems to me that I would be best off to drop putting any effort into Jammer Live at this time. I see it only has 2 fills and uses their styles only.

It seems to me that as a start I should concentrate on the basics of OMB and Live-Styler.

Since, as far as I know, only OMB allows you to take parts of different styles and midis and make your own personalized styles, that maybe I should try this first, even though the look of the virtual kb control panel of the Live-Styler appeals to me a lot.

Scott

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#146531 - 06/16/05 02:34 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Musikman4Christ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 17
Loc: USA
Hey Scott, I understand how intimidating all this technology is. Man, that is one of the main reasons why Arrangers are still viable and because they help you get inspired right away.
Don't give up and learn little by little. If you ever decide to get a Yamaha motif, check out this video that shows you how to turn it into a complete studio system with your laptop.

Cheers,

Musikman
http://files2.keyfax.com/video/mlan16e_mov/index.html
_________________________
Peace,

Musikman
Email:
Musikman4Christ@yahoo.com

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#146532 - 06/16/05 08:56 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Scott,

Hypercanvas and OMB work fine together on both of my computers. You'll need a host app for Hypercanvas. I have several that I can use, including FL Studio, Sonar, and Xlutop Chainer.

Chainer is a standalone app that hosts VST synths and effects. I open Hypercanvas up in Chainer, select "all" midi tracks, and I can add a few effects that open in Chainer as well. I route the midi output of OMB into Chainer via the virtual midi cable I mentioned above ( Maple ).

I use my Motif ES6 as my controller and have set up the assignable knobs as my fill in and variation buttons, which is done by selecting the proper control change ( midi cc ) for each button and then assigning it to a function in OMB.

Aside from what you mentioned about OMB, the other reason it works for me is that I can assign any midi cc# to any function ( variation up, down, fill, ending, etc ) and control these assignments from within OMB.


AJ
_________________________
AJ

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#146533 - 06/16/05 09:00 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott,
you can mix n match style parts in OMB's Stylemaker page. (Not sure how much of this will work in the demo version of OMB, but here goes. You may need to use one of Jos's demo styles, but with the full version your Tyros styles should also work)
Just say you want to put together a library of Style Parts so that you could create custom styles . All you do is use the PART "Import & Export" functions to load & save the style parts ie individual intro's endings fills & variations.

You can even import & export individual style tracks , like drums, bass etc into existing styles, to give them a bit of variety or to maybe fix a converted style that isn't working properly.

Haven't had this much flexibility in style creation since my kn7000.

Even if you didn't go ahead and use softsynths etc , OMB wouldn't be a total waste even if you only ended up using it as a style creation tool/editor for the Tyros.
It takes time to learn the software, but worth it in the end.

best wishes
Rikki
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
Hello
It seems to me that as a start I should concentrate on the basics of OMB and Live-Styler.

Since, as far as I know, only OMB allows you to take parts of different styles and midis and make your own personalized styles, that maybe I should try this first, even though the look of the virtual kb control panel of the Live-Styler appeals to me a lot.

Scott
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146534 - 06/16/05 11:44 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hey AJ

So, I need a host app. No wonder I can't get Hypercanvas to work with anything.

Are there any freeware host apps out there? Otherwise, not exactly sure what a host app is. I thought Sonar was recording software. I do have Sound Forge 6 and Cool Edit. Are either of these a host app? I don't really know where to look for that feature.

Hi Rikki, the style maker sounds like a great idea.


Scott

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#146535 - 06/17/05 12:01 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
I see I also have Cakewalk Home Studio, Power Tracks and Midiox or Midiyoke. Will any of these work?

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 06-17-2005).]

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#146536 - 06/17/05 12:50 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Scott,
being a beginner in the world of softsynths, I will try to explain things the way I see them.

If I make mistakes, AJ, Frank and Rikki can intervene and straight things up.

Imagine your softsynths as rack mounted real synths.

So, you need a rack to put them in place, before even turning them on, right? (please ignore my schoolteacher's attitude)

So, Download Brainspawn forte, install it, and you have a rack. that's what it is, at least in the very beginning.
go to preferences, see about midi input ports etc.

# You have Hypercanvas, it is a softsynth, so it needs a rack to reside on and an output buss.
Install it, load Forte, (it will search in designated places on your hard disk to find any softsynths you may have) and then go File, load etc. It will load Hypercanvas and also load an output buss and route Hypercanvas to the output buss.

Try the simplest method first. treat Tyros as a dumb midi controller, so press a key. Most probably a sound will be heard (piano?). Press the green down arrow button on the forte Hypercanvas "synth slice on the rack" (be sure you have at least 1024x768 screen resolution at first). Voila, our synth's panel. Hypothetically, the tyros transmits on channel 1 or both 1 and 2 for the layer and so on. Choose sounds on your rack (click on the vertical channel instrument name, navigate through the menus choose the sound you want. Play a little, adjust the hyper canvas internal effects knobs for reverb and chorus.

Does it work? Does the sound comes out? Does it "respond" quickly to the touch of a tyros key? or is there a noticeable lag?

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#146537 - 06/17/05 03:56 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hi AJ

"I use my Motif ES6 as my controller and have set up the assignable knobs as my fill in and variation buttons, which is done by selecting the proper control change ( midi cc ) for each button and then assigning it to a function in OMB" AJ Quote.

The way you stated this makes me think that you can use turnable knobs to act as on/off buttons. Is that correct?

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 06-17-2005).]

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#146538 - 06/17/05 04:00 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
If I actually go through with this soft synth thing this kb controller is the one that has caught my eye:
http://www.evolution.co.uk/products/evo_mk461c.htm

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#146539 - 06/17/05 06:41 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Yes Scott, in essence I use the assignable knobs as on / off switches with OMB. I've adapted pretty well to this thanks to the interface of OMB and find it to be almost as easy as using my PA80.

You do need a host such as Forte or Chainer if Hypercanvas doesn't open as a standalone - it's been awhile since I installed it so I cannot recall if there was a standalone option, but when given the option on softsynths I usually choose Vst only. Sonar and FL are recording apps, but both will also host VST and DX plug ins. I think Soundforge will host them too right ? If so, as Trident explained, SF will need to scan the folder that you choose to install your plugins to. There should be some sort of option for this in the program.

I can open my vsts in Sonar or FL, it's just that sometimes I just prefer less clutter and CPU usage ( when I don't need to record or otherwise process ), so I instead use Chainer.

I cannot comment on Forte, except that I believe it may now be discontinued. I know FLR likes it though. I like Chainer. Both will probably do anything you need. If you need a host to try this out, you can go to this page at KVR-Audio, as these are all freeware: http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php?mode=res...=&sort=1&rpp=30

I had a dedicated controller. A Midiman 61 Usb with 8 knobs and 8 sliders. It worked fine, but I found I didn't like the keys very much, so I traded it away for some custom work on my Les Paul and a small practice amp. The ES works fine for me, except when I need a lot of controllers for a virtual analog. I'm going to have a look at the newest Korg offering. It has full size keys ( unlike their previous offering ) and drumpads as well.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-17-2005).]
_________________________
AJ

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#146540 - 06/17/05 01:24 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally posted by Bluezplayer:

I cannot comment on Forte, except that I believe it may now be discontinued.


Where did you get this information?

As far as best free host to use Hypercanvas,
I would suggest Hermann Seib's VSTHost.

No one here has addressed the .sty file
xg drum bank and patch select issue that
Frank has elaborated upon many many times.
I believe LiveSynthPro is still the only soundsource that will call up the XG drums
properly, and since it is a DXi(and there are
no free DXi hosts that I know of), I would
suggest "Console" as a host.
Of course, to bypass all of this, you would
have the grueling task of remapping XG to GM/GS kits as I believe Frank has done(or is still doing?).

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#146541 - 06/17/05 01:36 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor & AJ, forte Ensemble is still alive and going strong. I like forte since it is specifically designed for use in live performances. I am currently testing a Beta version which should be released fairly soon. In addition, the 2 guys who develop this software are always available to assist their clients/customers - very good customer service. However, forte is not free.

Also, note that forte allows for Audio input so that you can use things like Guitar Effects, Vocal Harmonizers, etc.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 06-17-2005).]

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#146542 - 06/17/05 02:40 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Ok... maybe it was Live Synth Pro, or maybe something else. I know I read somewhere that one of the App hosts was recently discontinued.

That's a nice feature Frank. I think I can do something similar with Chainer, and I do play my Les Paul into the computer at times using Amplitube as my effects rig, but usually hosted in Sonar or SQ01. I like using Chainer as it also has an audio record function, so that inside of Sonar or FLS I can open it up and have the Vst output record directly to it as I play, rather than having to render it to a seperate audio track later.


I have not experienced the remappong problems that you describe V. One reason perhaps though is that I use very few Yamaha styles in the first place. The KN 7000 styles that I use seem to sound best with Hypercanvas, followed by the Roland VA and G1000 styles. Between those and the 25 or so PA80 conversions I use, I maybe need / use 10 or 12 Yamaha styles ( from the PSR 2000 and 740 ) at most, and have noticed no mapping issues with those.


The biggest challenge for me thus far is to try to get Hypersonic and Ravity to recognize GM or XG patch changes properly or sometimes at all. Not happening at this point, although it was a known issue with Hypersonic and BIAB and a fix may ( or may not ) be in the works.

I find both of these to be sonically superior to Hypercanvas, but if I can't change patches on the fly, then they aren't worth the bother in a real time setting. For something precorded, I don't care, because I can save a "scene" for each style or song in Chainer and open it again later at will.

In the end, we can give you the basics to get up and running. Any more than that, and I think maybe it starts to become like the usual fare we see here.. " which is better.. Yamaha , Korg., Roland , etc ". Since each of us has our own ears and likes / dislikes for operating systems, there is no definitive right answer, except that in the software realm, it isn't plug and play in the way a hardware arranger is, but there are many more choices and customizing that can be done to suit your individual needs, and you can get much more realistic in the sound dept.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-17-2005).]
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AJ

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#146543 - 06/17/05 04:34 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi AJ,
that explains why you don't have the same problems with drum mapping as some of us do that use majority of psr styles.

Hi Vquestor
Actually one of the fonts Frank put me on to
called Pro Vitamin http://www.reasonbanks.com/pvitamin_map2.html
appears to have same drum mapping as xg, even though it's not an xg font.

I was really pleased to find that one even though it wasn't free.
I'm learning how to replace drum samples I don't like in the font with ones that I do. It's an easier font ( as far as drums go) to edit, because of the way the samples are set out. It really simplified the process for me.
In the end, I may not even have one of it's original samples left, but it's been a great template.

best wishes
rikki
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146544 - 06/17/05 04:57 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
In a pursuit to make this easier for me and I'm sure a lot of other people, I have taken some of my ideas and some of your ideas and sent them both to Jos Maas of OMB and Norbert Stellberg of Live-Styler.

I have asked to have a step by step for the complete novice in soft synths make it easy by listing step by step how to use their programs along with a specific freeware and demos so anybody can get this rolling very quickly without all the questions all beginners must have.

I'm just thinking about some of the questions I've posed above. You can see I am trying to find square one. I am a player and do well on arranger keyboards or organs. But, the computer techie stuff is such that I don't even know what questions to ask. You all have been very helpful in steering me along on this. Now I am hoping that other people may express their ideas on this post so that Norbert and Jos can make these things as easy to start using as a regular PSR/Tyros keyboard. (Well, within reason anyway.)

I feel this is what I need to get going on this, rather than try and learn each program that is needed to make it work, have the authors of their excellent programs of OMB and Live-Styler spoon it to us pre-novices step by step.

If I can get the steps to easily follow and use, I am very likely to go forward with this project, if not, I suppose I will call it quits again. I've tried this a few other times and quit. I'll bet there are a LOT of people in the same boat as I am in.

Well, it will be interesting to see what Jos and Norbert can do to make life easier for us and to make their products more saleable.

Best

Scott

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#146545 - 06/17/05 08:59 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
So, after my latest tests, Jammer Live is now in 1st place. I actually got this program to work using my Tyros kb. It is so easy and intuitive to get around on this program. I really haven't read any directions to this particular program and it's practically as easy as sitting down to an arranger keyboard.

Live Styler is giving me all kinds of grief. Errors reports, it freezes. GRRRR

One Man Band I have had some success with, but I can't get it to work on my Tyros among other things. Ahhh, these learning curves.

Jammer Live has got me very interested now. To be able to just sit down and play, press a couple buttons to see what they do, and it's pretty obvious what they will do.

Scott

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#146546 - 06/17/05 11:01 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott
I must admit I like Jammer Live. It's very straight forward to use. Only thing I don't like, is that there isn't a great variety of styles available. I use a lot of piano arpeggio styles, but I haven't managed to find one.
As for OMB http://www.1manband.nl/omb.htm
at the bottom of the page, Jos has a number of tutorials.
To use the Tyros, I think you have to put it into a NON arranger mode ie a mode that makes it function more like a synth not an arranger keyboard. The manual should tell you how to do it. The info would probably be in the section to do with various midi settings.

I gather midi is via usb? if so
Go to Settings & set midi in & midi out to usb.

Set Device Type to XG

Chord Fingering to Full Fingered

User Interface. I normally set it to P.C. 2 I prefer to trigger variations via computer keyboard.

It might be worth your while getting used to the programs first, rather than jumping in and trying to learn everything at once.

I started off by learning how to use OMB with my Clavinova piano & it's xg sounds . Then when I was comfortable with the various functions, I started to delve into the world of softsynths.
For me, one step at a time is usually best.
best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
[B]
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146547 - 06/20/05 08:07 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Langholff:

Live Styler is giving me all kinds of grief. Errors reports, it freezes. GRRRR

I've had the same exact problem with Live-Styler, so it's not unique. Unfortunately the errors are in german or danish.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#146548 - 06/20/05 01:21 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper & Scott as you know my software arranger of choice is Live - Styler. I have been able to get it to work but you do have to pay close attention to the input/output ports. This is where I have had most of my problems but once it is up and running it runs flawlessly. I use it for live performances.

Jammer Live is a very worthy alternative. I like the others given there are so many styles available. Plus there is so much software out there to manipulate such styles.

I also serve as a beta tester for Live - Styler, OMB, forte Ensemble and others.

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#146549 - 06/20/05 02:50 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Are there any advantages of using the computer keypad as the control buttons vs using the buttons, sliders and knobs on a midi controller kb?

It almost seems to me that it could be just as easy to use the computer keyboard.

The only thing that seems to be a necessity on the controller kb would be the pitch bend.

Scott

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#146550 - 06/20/05 02:53 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
P.S. I just wanted to thank everybody that is able to pitch in and help me get started on what kind of seems like an overwhelming new toy.

However, I was just noticing today that after about a week of poking around how much more I now know already. I am more of a button poker and see what it happens person rather than a direction reader. The only thing on these gizmos is that there can be a lot of hidden functions that are illogical and not readily tested because a lot of it is not really set up like a virtual keyboard control panel where everything is pretty much layed out.

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#146551 - 06/20/05 07:21 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Scott, in general I use the lowest octave of my Roland A37 Controller Keyboard to operate the fills, variations, intros and endings. I use the buttons on my keyboard to do other things like changing effects, instruments, etc. In fact, using a host like forte Ensemble I change scenes by sending program change numbers. This allows me to make whole sale changes in the software with the press of one button (effects - reverb, program changes, etc.).

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#146552 - 06/20/05 07:33 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Realizing that once I figure out how to use Hypercanvas or Super Quartet, would it be safe to assume that if I take Yamaha styles, at least from the same keyboard, for example the PSR2000, that I will be able to set up some kind of global type setting for the few different types of styles, or am I going to have to tweak even styles from the same kb source?

In other words, I have found that the settings used for backrounds in big band could easily all be the same, combo sounds the same, etc?

Also, wondering if anyone has tried one of these computers with a touch sensitive screen?

I am getting alot of ideas. I am mainly wondering and speculating of course.

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#146553 - 06/21/05 05:17 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Scott, for those just starting off on this journey (software based arranger system), I would recommend converting the styles to GM or GM2 format. This will give you many options for wavetables - especially Roland or Soundfont. It is a great deal of boring work but it is worth it. I for example am now using the Colossus 14 GB or so GM wavetable. Sounds terrific.

However, you would need to change each time you change to other formats. If you don't you could end up with howling dogs, pianos playing and so on .... all in the wrong places.

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#146554 - 06/21/05 04:06 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott,
you do realize that Super Quartet isn't GM.
I think it's mainly piano, bass, guitar & drums. Be a good adjunct to Hypercanvas, but I think you'd be lacking a lot of instruments for your styles if you only had super quartet.

There is actually a third one in the series Orchestral. Trident has tried it and there's an earlier posting of his on Synthzone.


best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
[B]Realizing that once I figure out how to use Hypercanvas or Super Quartet,
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146555 - 06/21/05 07:09 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Rikki & Scott, you could use super quartet for your lead or melody voices and use a GM Wavetable (Hyper Canvas) for the styles.

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#146556 - 06/22/05 12:12 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Orchestral has a lot of VERY good quality (at least IMHO) voices, but they will suit o someone that makes soundtracks, or classical music. The piano is superb. It is not GM/GS compatible.

Super Quartet is Keys, Bass, Guitar and Drums only, it has some nice sounds and the drums are much better (again IMHO) than the Hypercanvas. Of course you can add a second guitar or another "keyboard" in this virtual band but it lacks synth sounds and distortion-overdrive guitars. Not GM/GS compatible.

The thing that makes HyperCanvas good is that is has an good quality all around and the intruments are blending very well together. For lack of a better word, they all "belong" together. And of course they are GM/GS compatible.

Hope it Helps
Theodore

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#146557 - 06/22/05 03:14 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1662
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
I hope what I'm about to say isn't out of place amongst all you techies, but I haven't got the first idea what you are all talking about....what is a soft synth when it's at home?.
I've played arranger keyboards live in all sorts of venues over the past 10 years and unless you're talking about rap or hip hop I've never had any trouble reproducing reasonable live cover versions of most everything that's been a hit over the last 50 years.
What are you trying to reproduce in terms of a musical sound?
_________________________
Roger M

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#146558 - 06/22/05 04:21 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I think the Acoustic guitar emulations are very decent in Super Q. Not quite as good as Musiclabs Real Guitar or Dasample ElectroAc, but a bit less drain on the CPU than those two. Drums are nice in SQ too. Makes me wish they had added another kit or two. I like SQ's piano better than the one in my Motif. SQ is very nice to me for lead voices, and I think it it does complement Hyper Canvas rather well.

Although in a lot of cases we are talking live here RHempstead, in others we are not. Some of us use these as studio sounds as well. I do both, although live play is incidental for me, in that I do it occasionally, not for a living.

Even though I readily accept the idea that sound itself is very subjective, I think it's hard to argue that any of the current arrangers ( or workstations for that matter ), matches some of this stuff sonically.

I own a Motif ES6, and while it's billed as one of the better if not best sounding workstations out there, I can easily surpass the quality of sounds in it in almost any instrument group with software. No real surprise there.. For example, Musiclabs Real Guitar contains more Sample Rom for a few guitar sounds than the ES does for it's entire sound palette. It also has several specialized effects that give it a more real guitar feel. These are adjustable and are quite playable in real time, even using a standard keyboard as a controller. Although the ES6 Guitar megavoices are quite playable, I think they pale in comparison

I like my Motif, and my arranger ( PA80 ), but when I want to capture a sound as closely as possible, I go to software. Ironically, my favorite emulations from the ES6 actually come from the two add on plug in boards. The VL150 Physical Modeling board still does one of the best horn / sax emlations I've heard, and the technology is ten yrs old or better. Ditto the AN150 analog modeling board. I really get the feel of a Prophet 5 from it, yet I still like NI's Pro53 software a little better.
For me, there is more. I always wanted a CS80, never could afford one, especially in it's heyday. The Arturia software version is close enough that I really can't tell a difference, although perhaps a sound pro with a discerning ear possibly could. I doubt most other folks would know..

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-22-2005).]
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#146559 - 06/22/05 05:05 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
AJ, you said it well....much better than I ever could. You are also way ahead of me in the understanding and implementation of a high powered software based workstation/arranger system. I am happy to see the progress made by members of this forum with varying degrees of a software based systems. Of course, one could not get anywhere with this without the software developers (arrangers, samplers, physical modelling and so on). It is indeed a different world in a short few years. It's great....just another of many alternatives to assist musicians and their clients.

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#146560 - 06/22/05 07:29 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1662
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
No, sorry, I'm still in the dark...
Is what you are saying that you need / want to more closely reproduce the sound of any particular musical instrument than can currently be obtained by purchasing any current keyboard or workstation and that therefore the process known as soft synth provides the computer technology to enable you to do so?
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#146561 - 06/22/05 07:58 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Yes. Although there could be more reasons. If I want a better flute voice, I can just buy that. I don't have to upgrade the keyboard to get 1 additional voice.
Starkeeper
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I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#146562 - 06/22/05 08:18 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1662
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
Isn't that where the response to Scott's original question should start then...
i.e.
Soft Synth Crash Course
The objective of soft synth is to blah de blah de blah; rather than disappearing off into a welter of technomumbojumbo about the detail of applying soft synth technology using this or that bit of software.
I thought Scott spoke for many when he asked the original question of you guys...
_________________________
Roger M

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#146563 - 06/22/05 08:34 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Here is part of Scott's quote (out of context), "I figure that this would be one arranger system that as better sounds and stuff came out, I could hopefully continue updating just the way I want it. Plus the idea of a 6 pound laptop and a 6 pound midi controller keyboard just sounds way too appealling to not at least give this a fair trial."
Starkeeper
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#146564 - 06/22/05 10:00 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by RMepstead:
Isn't that where the response to Scott's original question should start then...
i.e.
Soft Synth Crash Course
The objective of soft synth is to blah de blah de blah; rather than disappearing off into a welter of technomumbojumbo about the detail of applying soft synth technology using this or that bit of software.
I thought Scott spoke for many when he asked the original question of you guys...



I think Scott may already have a fair idea of what his main objective might be for using software sounds vs hardware. I thought he was looking more for a starting point toward a practical solution. I think he already has an idea of "what", but is looking more for "how".

Actually, what we have said about sounds and other reasons for going the software route has been stated here on the forum several times already in the past. One would only need to do a search to see that. The question of using it in a live setup is also very applicable here, since many of the members of this forum play live. It can be done, and I've already done it with no problem. I play keys pretty proficiently, but my live skills overall are only fair at best when I factor in all of the other things that an arranger player needs to do in a solo act. I've adapted to my software just fine, by creating shortcuts that make sense to me and work for me with the help of One Man Band's soft arranger.

The main point is... having a custom yet open based system that meets your needs, and is not dictated by what the few arranger / workstation / synth companies are able to sell to us. Sure, if they realize a majority of customers want a certain feature or sound, there's a good chance you'll see it. If not, no matter how important that feature is to you, you probably won't. With an open based system using software, you choose what works best for you.


Unfortunately, there is some "techno- babble" or "mumbo jumbo" that one needs to grasp a little in order to make a soft based system "sing". Noone who uses this stuff is saying it's plug and play - It isn't. That's the tradeoff, and one that I was willing to accept. I knew almost nothing about it when I started, so it has taken me awhile to grasp some of it, and has cost me some too. and I say for me, it's well worth the effort and money spent. Maybe it is or isn't for the next person.

Frank, I don't know if I'm ahead of you at all, or if I will ever be, but one thing I do know for sure is that you blazed the trail for me to follow. I knew little of this stuff, other than what I would see in a sound magazine or on a website, but I came here and read your posts, and that was the by far the best influence and source of knowledge to help get me going in the right direction.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-22-2005).]
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#146565 - 06/22/05 12:01 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1662
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
Thanks Bluesplayer
How far back in search terms do you reckon I need to go to try to understand what you guys are doing, to what end and why - and the keyword(s) would be soft synth would they?
I'm sorry to sound so dim but I just can't work out in my head what the end product is - still I guess Beethoven confused everybody in his day too...
Rog
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Roger M

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#146566 - 06/22/05 12:19 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
RMepstead,
what exactly is your question?

1. What is a soft synth?
2. What you can do with it?
3. why is it better or worse compared to your current setup?

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#146567 - 06/22/05 01:15 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
We've been discussing this for a while now, so search as far back as you like Rog. The word "softsynth" should get you there. You might also have a look at the KVR-Audio site. It's dedicated to the world of softsynths. There are some other great sites listed on Nigel's own Synth Zone main site. Much of what I learned came from going to these sites.

To simplify, a soft synth or Vsti is simply a software sound module. Think of your midi keyboard. When you strike a note, or use your sustain pedal, you're sending a midi message to the sound module inside of that keyboard. A soft synth is also a sound module, it just differs in that your computer hosts it and your sound card plays the part of your audio amplifier.

Think of a VST effect as maybe the Chorus pedal on a guitar, or any of the DSP effects in your kb. Again, your computer and soundcard replace your amplifier or kb.

A host app can be a standalone, such as Chainer or Forte. Think hardware rack. It hosts your vst instruments and effects. You send midi commands to it, and it works like your hardware hosts ( kbs ) do.

An application such as Cubase or Cakewalk Sonar has a virtual rack within, so it can host your vst instruments and effects. It also has a sequencer, like your midi kb, and it also has an audio recorder. It's kind of like a Hardware DAW ( think Korg D series / Tascam Digitals, etc), that can host, or is connected to your effects and sound module rack.

One Man Band, Jammer Live, Live Styler, etc are software aranger modules, that like your hardware arranger, send a special set of midi commands to your sound module based on chords you play, style and vatriation you select, etc.

Literally, you can simply start by thinking "outside of the box". The box in this case being your kb and / or effects rack. Software is simply taking these features, adding the ability to customize them as you wish, and using them in your computer.

Believe me, only a very few years ago I had no idea either how any of this stuff could possibly apply to and work for me. I'm serious when I tell you that without reading what FLR was posting here, I'm probably still playing a 100% hardware based system. The really cool thing is that in the past couple of years, some of this stuff has gotten so good that I could now work without hardware of any kind, save for a midi controller ( or Dumb KB as FLR says it ).

I am a little nostalgic for the old Prophet 5's, the Korg Polysix ( my first real analog ) etc, and all the buttons and knobs, but those things are so old and many are in poor repair if they are available at all. The "virtual" polysix looks exactly like it's real world counterpart, and has the very same quirky sounds to boot. With a midi controller that has assignable knobs and sliders, I can control the Polysix's virtual knobs much in the same way as when I played the real one some 20+ years ago.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-22-2005).]
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AJ

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#146568 - 06/22/05 04:33 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Roger,
basically what some of us have done is replace our arranger keyboards with a software version plus a controller.

In my case I'm using a laptop with One Man Band ( OMB) arranger software ( that's the guts that plays the styles, midifiles etc), a digital piano as a controller keyboard ( I use the keys of my digital piano to play chords left hand, melody right hand, left hand triggers the styles the same as on a kn7.
The soundsource for these styles & melody I can use softsynths or a combination of softsynth plus hardware synth ( in my case a digital piano or you could even use a kn7's sounds )

Initially Alec ( Technicsplayer) was to blame for my swap over from kn7 to a software setup. In trying to cheer me up over the demise of Technics back in Jan 04 he told me of a future where computers & software would be the arranger keyboard of the future. His vision may not quite have been OMB and an array of softsynths etc but it started me thinking & checking stuff out.
Fortunately I managed to find Frank & AJ with who's help I managed to bring the envisaged future to the present.
The system is not quite as straight forward to use as our KN7's but it shouldn't become obsolete either.

If I'd kept the kn7, I could have midied my laptop to kn7 , and used OMB software to play PSR styles . No more need to convert psr styles to kn7 format, ( just do the sound tweaking required) My soundsource would have been the kn7, or softsynths or a combination of the 2.

As you may remember ( from kn style group)??, I loved the kn7 for it's style editing & creation functions. Fortunately for me, most of those functions are available in OMB software also.

As for Scott, I beleive he has brought the subject up before so he does have some idea on what we're on about.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by RMepstead:
[B]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 06-22-2005).]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146569 - 06/22/05 04:41 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Musikman4Christ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 17
Loc: USA
AJ,
You said it man! I love my PLG150 VL, the DX and AN boards!! These plug in boards are so awsome man. My favority for Saxophone is the VL, for the FM sound is the DX, and those fat analog sounds, the AN.

Truly remarkable sound!

cheers,

Musikman
_________________________
Peace,

Musikman
Email:
Musikman4Christ@yahoo.com

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#146570 - 06/23/05 02:16 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1662
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
Many thanks to Rikki; Bluezplayer; and Starkeeper who were kind enough to recognise that if you ain't been there then you don't understand; and it's a great temptation to take advantage of Scott's plea for help headed 'Need soft synth crash course'to educate meself and probably many others 'listening'...Apologies Scott but hopefully you got something out of it too!
Best wishes
Rog
_________________________
Roger M

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#146571 - 06/23/05 12:51 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hi Rog

I'm glad you stepped in. It is a brand new world for me also. The language seems all Greek to me.

I suspect I will go at this slowly over a period of time. I suspect that if I can actually manage to read up on all of this and actually understand it, then maybe this will stand a chance for me. This ought to be interesting because I tend to be a poke a button and see what it does to learn. I am not much of a reader of manuals. Impatient maybe, I'm not sure. With these programs there can be a lot of hidden things, like the directions Rikki gave me about hit start, press backspace, press "V" etc. That is not a combination of things I would have just tried by poking around. So, in the end for me this looks like a long term thing.

Scott

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#146572 - 06/23/05 04:31 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott & Roger,
it was a whole new world for me also. I've used some music software over the the years , mainly the odd sequencer & BIAB, software that helped me edit & create styles for my arranger keyboards.
Basically I still don't know the first thing about computers themselves, but I have tried to familiarize myself with the software required ( asio drivers, virtual midi cables vst hosts etc etc) to be able to run the software realtime arrangers ( omb, livestyler, jammer live) and the softsynths ( be it freebie soundfonts, softsynths like hypercanvas or the more expensive software samplers). I've been avoiding the more expensive options as I'd like to be able to work out how inexpensively it can be done and still sound good. That's a complete turn around for me , as all my arranger keyboards have been top of the line for the last 10 to 15 years . I've always had latest model kn plus either a roland, korg or yamaha.
Every couple of years , it was a case of eagerly awaiting to see what new functions and styles the new models had. A lot of the time the changes were not all that dramatic, a few new styles , better quality sounds, better speaker system and some new functions that I probably didn't need, but had to have.

Brings me back to my software arranger. I can use whatever midi controller I choose, be it a dedicated controller keyboard, my digital piano with those wonderfull 88 keys, a synthesizer/workstation or even an arranger keyboard, be it one of the inexpensive psr's without editing facilities, only one intro/ending and a couple of variations, heck , you can turn it into a full fledged arranger with 3 intro's /endings, and 4 variations, plus some style editing/creation function, the top of the line doesn't have. You can add additional voices by way of softsynths.

It's a whole new world. One where the system won't be redundent unless xp computers dissapear & OMB, Live Styler & Jammer Live don't work on whatever system replaces xp one day. Meanwhile the programs are functional as is,( hopefully we get future upgrades) we can upgrade computers, sounds, create/convert styles, upgrade controllers & speaker systems.

As you said Scott, it's a long term thing, even if something better comes along in the meantime, there's no need to get rid of what you've already got, most of it resides in your laptop/computer. I've still got my old win 98 computer for the odd bit of software I didn't want to spend the money on upgrading.
It all takes time, there again , did you guys learn all the functions in your tyros/ kn's within a a matter of days. I think most of us learn what's required for our specific needs, untill such time as we want to delve deeper.

best wishes
Rikki
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146573 - 06/23/05 07:29 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hi Rikki

Yes, definately a long term thing. Even though I typically do not like the idea of having to tweak each and every voice, etc. This has peaked my curiosity. I guess it's the idea of not being stuck with whatever the kb companies decided to come up with. And at the prices they want to put on them. The new Korg, Roland and I'd be willing to bet the Tyros 2 are going up in a price range I don't want to have to be addicted to buying them when I'm sure none of them do exactly what I want and there will be all kinds of things on them that I would have no interest in.

Even the idea of just using Super Quartet interests me a lot. To me there is nothing better than a great sounding combo.

Found another free VST host. It's a very good recording software that I've used. Here's the link with reviews.
http://www.download.com/Audacity/3000-2170_4-10325373.html?tag=lst-5-14

Best
Scott

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#146574 - 06/23/05 07:35 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
I am wondering how you soft synth arranger players are doing as far as your computers crashing, locking up, fluttering, etc. Is this a problem, to any degree? Or, is it REALLY safe to think one can perform live and do as well as if it were a hardware arranger kb?

I also noticed, even though at this point I still prefer Live-Styler that some styles are too large for it, where they will play in OMB. However, it seems to me that in OMB it sometimes requires a few extra steps to get a style and be ready to go. Just like the hardware versions, not one is "ideal."

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#146575 - 06/23/05 08:34 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott,
haven't tried Live Styler recently , so can't comment. If you really prefer using it, you could always use omb to edit the style down. Let's face it, compared to the price of keyboards, these programs are relatively inexpensive.
I use my styles in a funny way, I prefer to edit the style to suit a song/songs. I prefer creating my own intro ( if possible ) in that way, if the style suits 3 songs, each one would have it's own intro. Omb stylemaker can also be used to create a "fade in " intro & "fade out " endings.
OMB has presets( registrations)
There's basically 3 steps involved when picking the song you want to play
On main voices page
hit start
press "backspace " key on computer
then pick any of 60 presets you have setup ( preset: includes style, voices etc required to play that song ( even includes the settings for scanned sheet music, and the speed for it to scroll through,). I name my presets by song name , rather than the style I'm using.
ie if I wanted to play Blue Danube, my preset would be called Blue Danube, my settings would be style Vienna Waltz, tempo??voices etc. This way I'm only looking for a song title rather than having to set up the waltz style, picking voices, tempo etc before I can start to play.

If 60 presets isn't enough, each of these can be used as a sub menu for another 60. So you could have settings for 3,600 songs at your fingertips. It's an extra button push though.

Not sure if you've found the preset function. I didn't realize it existed for quite some time.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Langholff:

I also noticed, even though at this point I still prefer Live-Styler that some styles are too large for it, where they will play in OMB. However, it seems to me that in OMB it sometimes requires a few extra steps to get a style and be ready to go. Just like the hardware versions, not one is "ideal."
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146576 - 06/23/05 09:00 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Thanx for the info Rikki

The style preset idea sounds good to me. Although I set up voice presets or OTS for a specific song once in a while, what I usually like to do, is to give the style the song name and then I like to be able to easily pick from about 50 preset voices on the fly. I don't always play the songs the same way, and I probably wouldn't remember what OTS settings I had used unless it was a specific specialty number.

So, my question is, will I be able to have a bunch of preset voices set up that will be easy to get at on the fly? Will the presets only do single voices or can I save 2 or 3 layered sounds to a voice preset? If so how many voice presets would be availabe?

Thanks again for your assist.

Scott

P.S. Rikki, I think you should get a job working for OMB. haha

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#146577 - 06/23/05 09:06 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott,
it can be a bit of a pain tweaking the voices,but , unless you only use onboard styles , or 3rd party styles written for your particular keyboard, you'd find you need to do a bit of tweaking anyway, if you use conversions or even styles from other models from the same company.. They're making keyboards less & less compatible. I had to tweak my kn5 styles when I swapped to the kn7. Had to tweak psr styles for use on my 9000pro.

I'm planning on using a soundfont for my styles, when I get my font all edited and set up the way I want, I won't need to touch those styles again, unless I upgrade the odd instrument within that font. If something better comes along, I'll have the option of leaving those styles as is, and use whatever new soundsource for newer styles. Unlike with a keyboard, you can't just keep adding one after the other ( I'd have about 50 by now) a new softsynth does'nt take up any physical space and doesn't cost as much either.

After I get my fonts sorted out for the styles, next step may be suitable softsynth for melody voices. At the moment I'm content playing my digital piano, but in the future , who knows.

As for prices going up, here in Australia , they seem to go up by $1,000 for each new model. ( KN7 had a retail of $7,000 Australian Dollars, Tyros had a similar price tag) not that I payed anywhere near that, for my kn. So I'm happy to have found a cheaper alternative that keeps me content.


Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
Hi Rikki

Yes, definately a long term thing. Even though I typically do not like the idea of having to tweak each and every voice, etc. This has peaked my curiosity. I guess it's the idea of not being stuck with whatever the kb companies decided to come up with. And at the prices they want to put on them. The new Korg, Roland and I'd be willing to bet the Tyros 2 are going up in a price range I don't want to have to be addicted to buying them when I'm sure none of them do exactly what I want and there will be all kinds of things on them that I would have no interest in.

Even the idea of just using Super Quartet interests me a lot. To me there is nothing better than a great sounding combo.

Found another free VST host. It's a very good recording software that I've used. Here's the link with reviews.
http://www.download.com/Audacity/3000-2170_4-10325373.html?tag=lst-5-14

Best
Scott
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146578 - 06/24/05 05:41 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Scott, one hears alot about reliability of PCs and Windows XP.....but not to worry. Performers in high places use them all the time:
http://www.daviddas.com/
And many others.

If you setup and run your system like I do you would find the PC/Windows XP as reliable if not more so than any hardware based system. I have 2 computers. One of my computers is for general purpose and all editing and the other is used solely for performances (no editing, no online stuff, tweak for optimum multimedia/music use, etc.). I have never had a failure during performances. The only time there are difficulties is when installing new software. Once you get the new software up and running the reliability is as good as ever. So ..... not to worry.

If you look at my system you can do layering, splitting, etc. for your melody or lead voices. I use a separate synth for this purpose and usually of much higher quality. I use Kontakt and very high quality virtual instruments. I set it up on a per channel basis, e.g.,

Channel
1 Jazz Organ
2 Flute
3 Trumpet
4 Sax
5 Strings
6 Piano
7 Vibes
8 Jazz Guitar
Etc.

I usually set these up to fit a genre of music, say jazz, etc. and will load up a different multi instrument for say country music. It works for me. I switch channels from my Roland A37 with the press of 2 buttons.....fast and easy. In future, once Kontakt will beable to accept program change numbers, I will switch over to this approach, i.e., change instruments by sending program change number from my controller keyboard. Now there are many variations on this theme and that is what is good about this....you find your own best way.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 06-24-2005).]

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#146579 - 07/02/05 01:43 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
Hi Frank

You mentioned about the idea of using Hypercanvas for accompaniment and Super Quartet for melody. Suppose I want to make some combo style and melody settings. Can I use Super Quartet to do both? I guess my question is can I use the same voice at the same time in the style and in the lead?

Also, I'm looking at the control panel of Live-Styler which I seem to be drawn to the most. I keep thinking of the idea of using a touch screen on it's controls. Any input on this is appreciated.

It seems to me that touch screen and tablet laptops would be handy but it seems they would be more expensive than the standard laptop and also possibly more fragile.

Another thing I am wondering is where do you find a case that fits say a Edirol PCR-80 or a MK-461c.

Wondering what kind of kb stand set up would work out the best as far as light, stable, being able to position the laptop front center etc.

I have also mentioned over on the onemanbandgroup forum that I think it would be a super idea if people working on tweaking sounds and styles could have a way of sharing that data, pooling all the resources out there instead of every man for himself. I would think there would be someplace where people could upload there settings for Hypercanvas, another for Super Quartet, another for Kontact, etc. I would imagine that this data would then work either on Live-Styler and also OMB?

Thanx
Scott

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#146580 - 07/02/05 05:04 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott,
sounds like we need a special group (haahaa)that deals with realtime software arrangers in general and a variety of software synths.
It's a bit difficult asking questions about rival software arrangers in groups like omb, and you end up boring users that don't use softsynths.
Only one problem, doubt whether there's enough users interested.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Langholff:

I have also mentioned over on the onemanbandgroup forum that I think it would be a super idea if people working on tweaking sounds and styles could have a way of sharing that data, pooling all the resources out there instead of every man for himself. I would think there would be someplace where people could upload there settings for Hypercanvas, another for Super Quartet, another for Kontact, etc. I would imagine that this data would then work either on Live-Styler and also OMB?

Thanx
Scott[/B]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#146581 - 07/02/05 08:39 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Scott, you can use Hypercanvas and Super Quartet for accompaniment but you would now need to ensure that the style calls up the appropriate instrument. This would be a little more work than staying with GM or better yet XG formats for Yamaha Styles. This is where using software is flexible so that you can setup a system that best suits your needs.

I use the Roland A37 as my controller keyboard. It is a 76 note keyboard with a good feel and with 128 setups for saving into its flash memory. I have had it for a number of years and seems to standup well.

Rikki is right in that there would not be enough users to warrant a separate user group. Plus those that go this route do things differently from most others and therefore providing information on your setups would not be that useful...I think.

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#146582 - 07/02/05 10:19 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Scott Langholff Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
We are having great difficulty getting past square one in getting Live-Styler and One Man Band to work properly. My wife who has computer trainging and in fact built our current computer is assisting me.

We have posted questions on Live-Styler and OMB forum. Can anyone help us get this thing to work like I believe it can. I still really think that once throught the mish mash of getting things set up and working that my future in arranger keyboards will be the soft synth variety, along with being able to have my lead sheets available all on one 6 pound laptop and with a 7 pound midi keyboard controller. I believet that I can make this sound better than the Tyros 2, or any other top of the line model, to be able to have ALL the sounds that I want and still cost considerably less than the 50 pound hardware beasts out there.

Here are the links to the other forums, I hope that I can get this squared away soon because..........grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! haha
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/LiveStyler/message/165
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/onemanbandgroup/message/667

Thanx

Scott

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#146583 - 07/03/05 12:20 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Scott,
there probably are all sort of setups, but this worked for me & my laptop. Bear in mind this setup works with my laptop's internal soundcard.
I use
ASIO4All driver http://www.asio4all.com/
because I don't use a soundcard that supports an asio driver. I need the asio driver for
Forte Ensemble http://www.brainspawn.com/products/forte/
Forte Ensemble I use for either my soundfonts ( via live synth pro) or I could just use Hypercanvas or any of the other softsynths Edirol produce). You do need a program similar to Forte Ensemble ( or chainer or console) to be able to use Hypercanvas in OMB, Jammer Live ( and probably Live Styler??)
Midi Yoke only acts as a midi cable between Forte Ensemble and OMB..
midi yoke http://www.midiox.com/index.htm?http://www.midiox.com/myoke.htm
After you've installed all the above software, my particular settings are as follows for Forte

Options
Preferences

1. Audio Options
Audio Driver Asio ( Asio4all)
Asio Controll Panel
Audio Device ( in my case Sigmatel inbuilt Audio Card)
Sample Rate 48000
Buffer Size 64
KS Buffers 2
"Tick" Force 16 Bit Samples
The above is probably not the best of settings, but at least I don't get crackles & pops. One day if I get a really good external soundcard I'll investigate further)

2.Midi Inputs
Midi Yoke NT 1

3.Main Page Forte I press "ADD"
Instruments & pick Hypercanvas.
Again, there's a lot more can be done with this program, at the moment I'm using bare basics.

Next open OMB.
Settings
Midi IN ( is your keyboard ) in my case USB1
( for my clavinova acting as my usb controller)
Midi Out = Midi Yoke 1
( remember midi yoke 1 was used in Foret as your midi option)

NEVER select the same midi yoke no. for midi in & out in your software ( OMB , Jammer live etc)
ie Midi IN midi yoke 1
Midi Out Midi Yoke 1 you'll probably cause a horrible crash.

Hope the above may help.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
[B]We are having great difficulty getting past square one in getting Live-Styler and One Man Band to work properly. My wife who has computer trainging and in fact built our current computer is assisting me.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

Top
#146584 - 07/03/05 06:00 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Rikki, I hope somewhere in your setup you are using effects such as reverb & chorus. If not one of the best places would be in forte Ensemble. There are free effects available on the internet. I use the Sonitus effects which come with Cakewalk Sonar. Equalizers are also helpful.

Scott, if you carefully study midi and its various ports you will find most of your issues with Live - Styler or OMB will disappear. You are in the early stages of this. It won't be long and you will be an expert. In addition, a little knowledge of sending program change numbers and effects will also go a long way to making your system work and sound good.

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#146585 - 07/03/05 05:20 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Frank,
I've got a heap of effects. I'm still a bit rusty on their useage ( so, I didn't want to advise on something I don't fully understand). I better get out the manual on Forte and do a bit of reading ( haa haa)
I haven't bothered with my Hypercanvas for quite a while, because I like the fonts, if I'm not mistaken, Hypercanvas has it's own effects?
To be quite honest, I'm not sure that I hear that great a difference when I use reverb effect or when I don't. Either I'm doing some wrong, or, keep in mind, I'm actually playing my fonts through my Clavinova's speaker system ie my computer audio out, is plugged into Clavinova audio in.

My Clav has an unusual sound system, it actually has an inbuilt microphone, and a function called IAFC ( Instrumental Active Field Control)

Phamphlet states the following
When IAFC is engaged. The Clav will sound
3 dimensional, just like an acoustic instrument. Sounds picked up by the mic and sounds produced internally are processed and output by a rear speaker to produce ambience and reverberation.
Also, I use the Clav's piano sound for melody, so with that combination, maybe that's why I don't notice a great deal of difference, with or without reverb effect??

For the time being, it actually sounds ok to me. After I get my soundfont library sorted out, I'll be doing further investigating on effects etc.
Me teeny brain hasn't been so active in ages. So much to learn.

Actually I picked myself up a bargain audigy 2 nx usb soundcard the other day on ebay. Couldn't resist. It can play soundfonts, but it has limitations, compared to using Forte, sblive setup.
It doesn't support Asio ( which I was quite aware of) so using it with Forte is out, as far as I can tell unless I use wdm/ks drivers. Unfortunately that gives me too much latency 10ms. Maybe there is a way around it, so that I could use asio driver, but haven't worked on it yet.
Either way it's proved one thing to me, than an external soundcard , does sound a lot better than my laptop's inbuilt card. So down the track, I may be looking for something a bit more professional, but for the time being , it will do quite nicely.
p.s.
It was a fair bit easier to install the audigy than my software setup for playing soundfonts, but I've totally enjoyed the experience.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]Rikki, I hope somewhere in your setup you are using effects such as reverb & chorus. If not one of the best places would be in forte Ensemble. There are free effects available on the internet. I use the Sonitus effects which come with Cakewalk Sonar. Equalizers are also helpful.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

Top
#146586 - 07/03/05 07:29 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Rikki, my guess is that if you are not using Reverb or Chorus you would find significant improvements in the sound by adding such effects. The PSR and others automatically add effects and are present all the time (unless you change them). In forte you can add VST/DX effects on the effects part of each bus. The instruments are located on the first section of each bus followed by the effects. I feel this is a very important subject to master. It will improve your sound. I don't use alot of effects but do use some amount even on my very expensive melody/lead voices.

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#146587 - 07/03/05 08:30 PM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I'll probably go the route that Frank went and get a high quality set of GM samples and / or a higher end soft GM modules in the near future.

Until then, I am rather satisfied when using the SGM180 soundfont with a touch of additional reverb and chorus effect mixed in. I have some higher quality effects packages, yet in this setup, I find that the freeware "Classic" Series Chorus and Reverb plugins do a very nice job of enhancing SGM180.

For the first time since I've owned it ( several years ), I actually like using Band in a Box. It sounds very nice now when I use it with Live Synth Pro and SGM180 and the effects setup I described. In reality, to my ears it is a step up soundwise from Hypercanvas. SGM180 also does a very nice job with OMB and Chainer as my Vst host, particularly when I use non Yamaha kb styles like those from the KN7k and Roland series boards. Again good but subtle ( ie. not overdone ) effects added make a world of difference to me.

I actually think this setup in itself now exceeds anything soundwise that my PA80 can do for me. That's before I add the high quality softsynths that I already have for lead voices. I can only imagine what a higher quality GM set would do for me for the rythyms and styles.

Actually, I have made a few rythym setups up for Chainer, that include Yamaha Blue Jay drums, the B4 organ, assorted basses ( sampled ), and ElectroAcoustic and / or Real Guitar for guitar rythyms. Incredible sounding at times, even with BIAB.

AJ
_________________________
AJ

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#146588 - 07/04/05 05:21 AM Re: Need soft synth crash course.
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
AJ, I agree with you.

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