Just read the latest review (by Julian Colbeck) on the Yamaha 9000pro in the current issue (May 2002) of Electronic Musician . The topic of my posting here has less to do with Mr. Colbeck’s review of the 9000pro itself (very good – excellent overall), but more about the commentary he makes about us: arranger keyboard players. Being a professoinal arranger keyboard musician myself, I have to admit that many of Mr Colbeck’s views have also been expressed to me by some of my pro musician colleages as well, though I certainly don’t agree with many of them.

Please comment on the following quotes I extracted from Mr Colbeck’s review:

“Germany is the place where Styles rule supreme; whole aisles of the Frankfurt Musikmesse are taken up by companies that produce nothing but third party Style content for instruments from Yamaha, Roland, Technics, and others. Accordingly, among some reasonably hip and 'American-sounding' beats and grooves is an awful lot of oompah-ish material, appeal of which beyond the bierkellers of the Black Forest is questionable. The 9000 Pro is tailor-made for the German market.”

“ Yamaha isn’t marketing the 9000 Pro as a professional synthesizer, but the instrument offers several pro-level features.”

“Why it is that the concepts of auto-accompaniment is terminally un-hip, whereas the notion of retriggering backings that other people have produced (such as sample loops) has become totally cool, is one of life’s little imponderables. Auto-accompaniment began life in fox trot and beguine territory, of course, but styles have progressed tremendously since then, largely thanks to Korgs’s i-Series of instruments.”

“I’ve noticed the arranger-keyboard fraternity expects Style providers to trawl popular songs for inspiration. That fixation on existing song material is annoying and one of the reasons why such keybord have a bad rap among pro musicians. If arranger-type instruments provided feels and grooves that were fresh and free, their appeal would be broadened. Of course, my opinion is one of personal taste, if you play dinner sets in a hotel lounge, you’ll porbably be extremely happy with what the 9000pro has to offer”

“Yamaha is hoping that the omission of built-in speakers and the addition of some cool new sounds will help the 9000 Pro appeal to professional musicians ranging from working performers to budding film composers. It will do so to an extent, but I’m not entirely sure the specter of cheesiness has been eradicated for the average American pro player. If you you’ve long admired auto-accompaniment instruments but never quite had the guts to admit it, however, now is a great time to jump in.”

footnote: Julian Colbeck runs Keyfax Software, the company that produces TwiddlyBits midi sample loop libraries and the PhatBoy Midi performance controller. http://www.keyfax.com/

- Scott

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http://scottyee.com

The man is on the edge of reality at least.
9000, 2000 and Pro have the best selection of useable Country/Western styles of any of the arrangers. Must be some Cowboys in Germany.
DonM

morning Scott

Nice of you to post that article here - with its (cough) balanced approach to the question of whether or not arranger keyboard players should be allowed to live or even(god forbid) perform in front of an audience!

As usual - it seems so important for sanity sake - to keep the business of music separate from the philosophy and bias discussions. Any essay re: the pitfalls of arrangers that uses either 'common practice' or 'pro musician preference' to support their argument - has zero effect on any real life situation except perhaps to irritate someone's ego on this forum - un-necessarily.

Humanity has a tremendous musical heritage and tradition achieved by the continuous passing along of songs - structure - harmonic content - melody - and rhythms. This is a tradition carried on by arranger keyboard players - in a fashion which allows audiences to hear songs they love, songs that bring back youth and simpler times, songs that bring our emotions into sharper focus, songs which bring people together in the recognition of shared experience at a point in time........ Arr. KB folks do this- at a low cost -mid volume - and on a much smaller stage!!

The face of an old woman smiling as she regards the melody of a song which took root and meaning at some point in her life - reflects a universe value that transcends what anyone will ever write about the way that song was played.

Mike H

I guess stuff like this should tick me off a little, but instead I almost have to laugh at it, even if it's with a snicker. I kinda get a kick out of some of the guys who belittle arrangers and yet do modern dance / synth stuff that is so reliant on using sample loops of other material that has long been out there. Oh my God, what a joke that is. The thing is, I CAN play mostly anything I hear or want to hear / compose on my instrument in real time at the drop of a hat ( some pieces obviously require practice ). Can they ? I'm guessing some can but then again why all the need for sampling / resampling of material that has already been there and done that ? Sure there are cool loops / arpeggios that are unique to synths and that would be virtually impossible to play in real time, but what about the rest of it ? Then again, the footnote you posted is the most telltale of all Scott. We have to keep it in perspective based on the source

Arrangers for me do two things. At first I used them mainly for an aid to composing and playing my own stuff. I just don't need to play, or in the case of certain instruments like drums, sequence EVERY note of every measure to make a good song. It's a waste of my valuable time. Now that I am doing live work again, I can do so much with a good arranger board. ( Arrangers in today's form weren't even available the last time I played live ) I believe that a good entertainer can entertain, whether he / she is using a 9000 pro, a PA80, a kazoo, or good jokes and stories. That is an ability unto itself. It certainly helps to have the right tools specific to your type of entertainment, but the tools themselves do not make the entertainer. How many people in an audience would really care ( or even know ) whether there favorite singer or band's keyboard player is using a Triton, 9000 pro or a PA80 ? Some people are curious where all the sound comes from because there are only two of us in my current act ( or in some cases just me alone ), but years ago, when I was in a full live band, only other musicians themselves ever seemed to notice what type of keys I played.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-25-2002).]

Wow, Mike, that's deep, and true, and very well-said.
DonM

Bluesplayer

"How many people in an
audience would really care ( or even know ) whether there favorite singer or band's keyboard player is using a
Triton, 9000pro or a PA80 ?"


I'll agree to that for sure!!

The critical comment is this:

“I’ve noticed the arranger-keyboard fraternity expects Style providers to trawl popular songs for inspiration. That fixation on existing song material is annoying and one of the reasons why such keybord have a bad rap among pro musicians. If arranger-type instruments provided feels and grooves that were fresh and free, their appeal would be broadened. Of course, my opinion is one of personal taste, if you play dinner sets in a hotel lounge, you’ll porbably be extremely happy with what the 9000pro has to offer”

I think the major problem with a number of professional musicians (usually to be found in bedrooms or studios) can be summarised in two words.

Cover Versions.

There has always been an opinion out there that cover versions are un-hip and not worth demeaning yourself with when you could be doing "original stuff" and "not using just the presets".

I consider this to be musical snobbery. Having said that, some pro's who I've met consider that I'm involved in the musical equivalent of prostitution because I happily admit to playing songs I don't like because I know that audience happen to love the tune. I also attepmt to play every tune (whether I like it or not) to the best of my ability. Surely this is a different aspect of "Professional"?

There are a huge number of pro's who find themselves (through choice, circumstance, finance, inability to get on with guitarist / sick of rehearsing with said guitarist to discover he's good at Jimi Hendrix but no use for Frank Sinatra) playing to audiences who require cover versions. Playing original material to such audiences is a fast way to discover the term "paid off".

Arranger keyboards adjust the logistics of entertainment so that a one-person-band can entertain a crowd as well as anyone else.

So what's wrong with that?

.. I once heard someone say "A man dresses for himself, a woman dresses for other women" ... I might add "kb players buy kbs for other musicians..." let's face it ... besides buying what WE want to play and hear, to some extent we are looking to impress OTHER people, and the only ones who are going to be impressed are OTHER MUSICIANS .... I've seen audiences in a lounge having a great time and thoroughly enjoying a vocalist who was performing with a KARAOKE machine as back-up .... did they care what KIND of machine it was?!?!? ... I doubt it.... .... if you can get away with using a Casio, and you are pleasing the crowd, they won't know, or care, and more power to you.....
t.

One of my clients who hires Arranger guys twice a week put in a 16 piece band last Saturday. The band was very good...Dorsey, Miller, Kenton, Basie, Ellington, etc. (Talk about Styles....)

The band was great. The place sold 146 tickets and paid the band $2,000. On a normal saturday we will have 130 to 200+ people and the entertainment (singles and duos using arranger KBs) costs the club 15% of what the big band charged.

From the Club's perspective, going with the Arranger guys is an economical no-brainer. But this is a club that wants to provide variety for its members, even if some of the events lose money for them.

Its about Entertainment.

Now, you ask: "How does that relate to Mr. Colbeck's article?"

Beats me.

As Everyone has said it so well, I would just like to add.
I guess if I was playing in a 3 or more piece band & was loosing gig's all the
time to one man band's or duo's I would dislike arranger keyboards also.
As far as Mr. Colbeck goes.
Mr. Colbeck can take his Keyfax software & stick it where the Sun DON'T shine
& I will stick with my oompa-ish 9000 PRO, & we will both be happy. ( At least I will )
Enjoying the 9000 PRO Oompa-ish A one and da 2 and da 1-2-3
Denny

They are! I have lived in Germany (Munich) for two years, in the early 90', and got the impression that country music is extremely popular over there (at least at that time)! Lots of country music live bands.

-- José.

Hi Scott,

it is true that Germany has a great selection on some realy good styles, I must say though most of them are far from Oompa pa music, even though they are out there.

Europe is big on Dance, Techno, Hip Hop, House, Rave.... etc.
There are a lot of one man bands in Germany. Almost every party will hire one. Of course it is expected that they play the latest tunes as well as some oldies and for the older generation a few Oompa pas are a must.

In Germany Arrangers are viewed very differently and KB magazines give them excellent reviews, year after year. As we discussed earlier, most families have some kind of instrument at home.

Since there are so many people in Germany/Europe that play arrangers, it is no wonder that they are taken in consideration when programing styles.

Eric

[This message has been edited by Eric, B (edited 04-25-2002).]

Nice comments from everyone .

Defending the arranger .......i am not going to get into it ! dano

Hi Eric,
Sounds like a trip to Germany is a MUST for us 'American' arranger keyboard players. It will be a welcome switch to be appreciated by other pro gigging musicians for a change. Here in California (at least in my area), arranger players are far and few between, but then I guess that's what makes gives us the marketing edge.

Great reading everyone's feedback & comments on this thread. I knew I could rely on you guys to help cheer me up after feeling bummed out from Mr Colbeck's snootty anti arranger commentary . I feel so MUCH better now. Keep posting everyone. - Scott

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http://scottyee.com

I agree with all of you 100 percent. However, the Italians who make the Ketron X1 put way too many ethnic European styles on it to suit me. Of the 98 styles on bank B about 20 of them are usuable for the usual American croud. Too many oom pa pa's. Thank Fran and some of the others for providing us x1 users with additional styles.

Hi Scott,

most stores in Germany carry high end KB's, for the reasons mentioned above. But just like here, not every sales person is as knowledgeable or enthusiastic as George or DanO about their KB's.

Maybe you and I will team up some day and go to the Frankfurt Messe. They have ALL KB's that are out on the market, not just the new stuff. The demonstrators are pretty good to.

If you book early enough you can get pretty good airfair. My wife was just in Germany for a surprise visit for her Mom's birthday.
I couldn't go, but she payed only $350.00 roundtrip and $100.00 for a car for one week.

Not to bad

I must say for myself, that I have a blast playing my Pro everyday, and that I have a whole band/orchester at my fingertips, no matter what anybody else says

Keep on swinging

Eric

I read the article and I have the magazine and I really liked some of the ideas he presented.

For example, he liked the sweet flute and the solo nylon guitar very much. I agree with him that those were the best of the best sounds. However, he missed the sweet trumpet which I thought to be the best ever sound in the PSR series from PSR740 to PSR9KPRO. HOWEVER, as an American, I expected that an American will not appreciate the sweet trumpet sound as MUCH it deserves because (AHEM, please take my comments with grain of salt, this is only an opinion ) of the influence of JAZZ, big bands and other styles of music. I like the trumpet MORE in easy listening and classical music than in Jazz or bigband. But the point is that he hit the nail on the two other sounds.

I also agreed with him when he said that although PSR9K has additional professional features, they are not subsitute to dedicated sampler for example.

However, the following takes the cake:

“I’ve noticed the arranger-keyboard fraternity expects Style providers to trawl popular songs for inspiration. That fixation on existing song material is annoying and one of the reasons why such keybord have a bad rap among pro musicians. If arranger-type instruments provided feels and grooves that were fresh and free, their appeal would be broadened. Of course, my opinion is one of personal taste, if you play dinner sets in a hotel lounge, you’ll porbably be extremely happy with what the 9000pro has to offer”


Well, he clearly missed the point. STYLES are not primarily created for NEW MUSIC. STYLES is for performing FAMILIAR MUSIC. If you want to create new music with new edge, simply modify some styles, write your own or do not even use styles for that.


But I think I know where is he coming from and here is what I have to say: if you want to sell a "PRO" musician an auto-arranger keyboard, I will not recommend Yamaha keyboards. I will recommend GEM keyboard instead. The reason for that is that when you record GEM styles in the studio, they do not sound like they are coming from an auto-arranger keyboard unlike Yamaha keyboards. Yamaha auto-arranger keyboards sound like an auto-arranger keyboard and therefore they do not fit for professional recording of songs. I believe this is what Julian wanted to say but could not articulate it and thought it was simply an existing song material issue.

My 2 cents. As usual.

I just bought my 9000 Pro from a regular poster here and I'm enjoying it very much. I haven't read the EM review of it yet but I did read the Keyboard magazine review last fall (October I think, but the review is not online), which was done by a person who does commercial music beds for a living. She was very nice and gave a good bit of praise on the 9000's features and sounds, but she spent a lot of the article talking about how she used the 9000 Pro to sample and remix some music for a project. That's all well and good but I don't think the 9000 Pro is really meant for studio use. Studios keyboardists and film composers wouldn't use half of it's features really, nor would keyboardists who play in bands. Without the built-in speakers, I don't see home users jumping in line either. It is quite clear to me that the 9000 Pro has one market in mind in particular: wedding singers... for them, the 9000 Pro is a money maker. The music database function is full of examples of songs needed for instant audience gratification at weddings and parties... even the dreaded "Chicken Dance". And in the MIDI setup is templates for using the 9000 Pro with a midi accordion. Need I say more?

I keep starting to reply to threads, and then read what I've written and it's so cynical-sounding that I delete without posting.
I drove to Books A Million and read the entire article, trying to find something positive. I found a couple of things: I'm positive Yamaha spends a lot of money with them so they probably have to write the review. I'm positive the guy knows nothing about the way real-life people, both pros and hobbyists, use Arranger Keyboards.
Now I don't have to delete because this is a positive comment.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 04-26-2002).]

I played 4 jobs since I got rid of my psr2000, and I did not use the arranger ONCE, since then. (Mostly because the G7 is pretty weak in pop styles ... but OH those polka's !!!)I played left hand bass, piano (RH) and used the drums .... alone. I was happier than I've been in ages, and I got paid the same money as I would if I had a rack of gear up to the ceiling!
The feel of the keys gave me back a comfort zone that I had lost with the 2000, and that is why i was able to play the whole night without the aid of the arranger. I didn't even miss it a little. I LOVE playing my own bass lines, and to tell the truth - there is a simple beauty to that "trio sound" that gets lost when you add all the bells and whistles in the arrangement section.
All these tools have thier places in our shows, but I am happy to report that nothing can replace the "live" energy of human hands. I've said this before, but it's worth repeating -
Turn OFF those accominiment parts sometimes. No one wants to hear a full orchestral arrangement in every song. Treat your listeners to the "rests" They are a BIG part of music, an too often forgotten, and ignored.
So, it looks like I'm back with the trusty old G7 till further notice. This means that for important jobs, I need to bring my rack bag (for the harmonizer), but for the little 1 hr stuff, the mic input in the keyboard is working out just fine ......and that BUILT IN mic stand boom - it's UNbelievable how cool that is. EVERY keyboard should have this as an option. It's a real space saver.

Uncle Dave, I couldn't agree with you more! I just bought my first arranger keyboard because I needed it for the job I'll have this summer (summer here lasts 6 months, so it worths the investement). I am originaly a piano player, and used keyboards for some extra sounds live, or for sequencing songs. I was totaly against arranger "things" because anyone could sound good on them regardless of his skills.
Now I have one, I see that they can be very useful instruments, but still I try to use the arranger part the least I can. I do exactly what you do. Manual bass on the left, drums and piano or guitar or whatever suits on the right. But the owner of the place where I play wants to have the impression that 10 musicians are playing(eventhough he's paying only 3! ) and is very satisfied when he has it! So, I must use the "big band" to satisfy him. Stil, whenever I have the oportunity, I turn everything off and use only piano which makes me feel I'm playing on my ground.

It's good for the soul, and easy on the ears too. How many times can you hear the same rhythm trax anyway ?

Remember also that if you want to play some instrument solos during a song, without the full accompaniment, you can 'cancel' by pressing three adjacent notes on the acmp notes.
Eddie

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Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

That only works in the "fingered" mode.

You know, I hear something similar to what Uncle Dave has posted from a lot of musicians. They tell me snide things like, "I try to keep things REAL"... in other words, they play as much as they can live and rely on arranger/midi etc. as little as possible. Some guys are so paranoid about sounding "mechanical" that they go to the lengths of multitrack recording themselves playing at home and use MP3 files on stage rather than risk using midi sequences that sound stiff. And telling people to turn off their machines and just play has a certain nobility to it, and as a pianist I do play only piano now and then myself. But this IS an arranger keyboard forum, or so the sign on the front door says, and I sometimes feel that what we're lacking isn't musicianship but digital virtuoisty and the self-confidence to take ourselves and our audiences into the future. Just as certain artists spend a lifetime developing the skill to be virtuosos on their instruments, I rarely see people becoming virtuosos with digital instruments and the latest in arranger keyboards in particular. Isn't the point to express ourselves? So why can't we use the full resources of modern keyboards to express ourselves like we can when we turn the accompaniment off? Is the problem in the arranger patterns or sequences that we use? If so, why don't we alter, humanize or reconstruct them so they don't act as a turn-off to us? Isn't it worth the time and effort, or do we appear to be faking something if we use our instruments to their fullest? Are musicians who use arranger or sequenced keyboards the "professional wrestlers" of music or something in the sense that we are petending to be something we aren't? We certainly see in the lukewarm reviews of pro arranger keyboards how little respect the mainstream musicians seem to have for these instruments, yet I wonder, how can we expect others to respect what we do if we don't respect the instruments ourselves? It seems to me here in the 21st century that there should be tolerance and maybe even the need for 21st century musicians: those who are stepping into new territory with the latest in music technology. This is both a commentary and an open question: why did we buy these state-of-the-art instruments only to wind up not using them fully or selling them, as in Uncle Dave's case with his PSR-2000? Is digital arranger virtuosity a joke, a naive notion, or is it just that the instruments themselves are not sufficiently advanced enough yet to allow us as musicians to realize what we hear in our mind's with them? I feel that we are poised to leap into a new era of music and performance capability, yet we seem to be resisting the momentum that technology is giving us... why is that and what must we do to overcome it?

Good points.

First of all - I have always embraced the newest technology, and if I may be so bold to say .... I have perfected the art of making the tool do exactly what I want(within it's limitations, of course). I have been making a living on far worse gear than I have now ... it's all relative. The tool is only as good as the craftsman.

Arrangers are not evil, or means of laziness, but the very nature of automation DOES diminish our own motor skills to some degree. Even this week - I've noticed, my bass hand is not quite as sharp as it once was. All skills require constant maintenance, and finger dexterity is no exception.

The name of this forum "suggests" that we are all arranger players, but I think it goes further than that. With our diverse mix of members, we are all PLAYERS ... of some degree, so giving hints and tips on better "playing" techniques only seems natural. I was slow to accept the arranger into my arsenal, because I always had TOTAL control over the arrangement .... by playing the bass and chords myself, and using a drum machine pattern for rhythm. I gradually came to an understanding with the arranger section by using it sparingly. Even with the full arranger running .... I play full chord accompaniment with my right hand - that's how I personalize the song. I need to add more "me" to each mix, other wise I feel like a front man with no control over the band.

I can never really hear any individuality from song to song if I DON'T do that.
EG: The standard 4/4 eight beat is used by Soooooo many songs - it would be musical suicide to just let it run and think that different chords make for different songs. It's important to add some "spice" to the canned stuff, and that's what I was trying top point out by advising us all to "turn off the arrangers" every so often. Same way with the 12/8 ballad style so popular in 50's and 60's music. I need to hear more than those piano triplets to keep me awake !

At the end of the day - we are all the same. Just trying to make a little music, whether it's for profit or for fun .... it's all good, and however you achieve that goal is a good and viable method. Use the means at your avail - listen to the advise of your peers, and most of all ..... have some fun. Geeeze, it HAS to be fun, doesn't it?

I'd go nuts in the corporate world. I'm so lucky that I'm able to eek out a modest living in this crazy, glitzy world of show biz. When it stops being fun ... then I'll have to stop too. Man, I'd hate to have to wear wing tips to work .... YUK !
DEFINATLY, not my style.

OK ..... I'm ready to buy a new keyboard now.
Oh yeah, I forgot ....... no one makes what I want.

Darn.

Nice response Uncle Dave. I join you in the quest not only to get the most out of our instruments but to be the musician that is the least technophobic in my area. And I still haven't found my perfect keyboard either. However, back to the roiginal topic of this post, Electronic Musician has posted the full text review of the Yamaha 9000 Pro online here: http://industryclick.com/magazinearticle...46652&siteid=15

Hey, this review isn't sooo bad... it's not bad at all in fact. Oh sure there's a tiny taste of arranger-snobbery in it, but very tiny. Beats the review that Keyboard magazine did. In fact, and I'll be honest here, I don't like the Live! Grand piano sound on the Yamaha 9000 whereas the reviewer for EM gushed over it. Read for yourself...

Esh http://www.mp3.com/esh

After reading all of the review it don't sound to bad !!!!!!!!!
Heck I might even buy one myself !!!!!!!! (he he he )
Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny