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#132184 - 08/13/00 08:56 AM X1 users, I need your experience!
Marc Bischoff Offline

Registered: 11/25/99
Posts: 42
Loc: Rotterdam, NL
Dear X1 users!

I have a couple of questions about your experience with your X1.
I will first try to explain my situation:
I am a 26, and a proud owner of a X1 since end of last year.
I bought it because of the excellent sounds, and styles (especially Latin styles).
I play mostly in a trio with 2 singers and me (one of the singers plays also a/el-guitar and tres).
Everybody in the group sings.
We use a lot of midis for the show. So far no problem.
I am using a X1 with hard disk and vocaliser.
For on-stage mixing I bought a little 8 channel mixer and a digital effect. I make my own mix and then connect the total mix to the PA of the place we play (many times there is a PA system available where we play, luckily....:-))
Well, now I would like to explain you my on-stage setup (if you are not really bored yet-

The mics are connect each to my little mixer (so channel 1,2,3)
I have two aux channels.
Aux send 2 (post fader) is connected to the effect and returns to one of the stereo channels, aux send 1 (pre fader) is connected to the mic-in (vocaliser!) of the X1.
The X1 one itself is connected to the Aux return 1.
Oh, I forgot, the vocaliser is send back via output 3 of the x1 to a separate mic-input of my mixer.

Well you see: Ch1: mic
Ch2: mic
Ch3: mic
Ch4: vocaliser return (output 3 of X1)
Ch5/6: empty/maybe guitar
Ch7/8: effect return
Aux send1: vocaliser/mic-in of the X1
Aux send2: effects
Aux return1: X1 (Left/right output)

Do you understand: By connecting this way I can decide which mic is vocalised by just opening the aux 1 of the appropriate mic-channel.
That is great and I tell you works splendid.
So far also ok.

Now my problem is the overall sound quality!!!!
I love the X1 one via headphone, I love it via my stereo, and I even like it through the intern speakers.
But what happens now during a live gig. I play on quite loud parties so I connect my main-out of the mixer to the PA system (into 2 channels) and what I get is a very unbalanced sound.
That means: lots of high lots of low but nothing in the middle. All the warmth of the headphone sound is gone. I check whith the the headphones the total sound of my mixer before it goes out and it sounds still brilliant.
Why then, I don't get that sound outside.
Also I find the sound of especially the vocalized voice too sharp and very feedback sensible.
That means I either don't hear the vocaliser at all, or I get a very high feedback, like I never heard before, and I know it come through the vocaliser.

Anyway I always manage to get a more or less decent sound, but it occupies me almost during the whole gig and I don't concentrate on playing.
That disturbs me.
I figured out already that I maybe shouldn't enter my main-out signal to a mic-input of the PA's mixer, but rather use the line input because that prevents from double-amplifying the mic sound, which could be one of the reasons for the mic feedback.
I wouldn't right this to you guys if this sound-problem wouldn't be a repeatable thing using different types of sound systems.

I know I kept you reading quite a while, and don't know if I could make myself clear enough, but please let me know if you have an idea on this.


Marc Bischoff

#132185 - 08/13/00 06:19 PM Re: X1 users, I need your experience!
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
You might check to be certain that the house system doesn't have some sort of exciter or enhancer and is using too much of it. As in life, too much excitement can cause problems.
Seriously,I have seen an aural exciter turned up too high cause exactly the systems you describe.
If not that, it must be something in the e.q. of one of the mixers. Certain frequencies are being over amplified, or cut too much.
I'll bet if you look at the e.q. sliders on the main mixer, it looks like a big smile. Modern sound equipment rarely needs that curve any more, but a lot of sound men automatically set it that way anyway, because that's the way they've always done it.

#132186 - 08/13/00 08:08 PM Re: X1 users, I need your experience!
nadoboys Offline

Registered: 08/17/99
Posts: 42
Loc: Coronado CA USA
Sounds like you are ready to invest in your own PA system!
Seriously though, if you follow some basic steps, you should be able to get close to the sound you want, provided the house PA system is up to the task. First, you are correct in your observation of not using a mic input for a line level device. The mic input is much to sensitive, and has the wrong impedance, making it easy to distort the sound when a line level input is fed to it. Second, though obvious, make sure you are not sending any signal to your effects channel on input 4 (your vocalizer return) This would give you a built in feedback loop.
Third, tackle the feedback problem. Feedback is effected by speaker placement and frequency settings on your sound system. If at all possible, you want your PA speakers in front of your microphones The worst setup would be to have your PA system behind you, with the speakers facing directly into the microphones. The second worst setup is to have the spakers above you, facing down. This is how many Hotel banquet rooms have their PA systems set up. It is almost imperitive to use a stand alone system if the house system is built into the ceiling.
Over amplified high frequencies are much more prone to feedback than mid or low tones. Use your mixer's equalizer controls to cut the high frequencies a bit, and to boost the mid range.
The third thing is set up your sound sytem so that it sounds good to the audience, not only to you in the headphones. I use a disk in my PSR 730 to set up the PA system for the house I am playing. It allows me to get out on the floor and hear how the mix will sound to the audience. I also use a tape recorder (boom box) with some good vocal tracks on it to get the mic mix close to where I want it, then I check it with some tests with my performers. Pay attention to your ears, don't worry about where you end up having to set the knobs. If you end up with the highs cut way back on your mixer, and a heavy boost to the mid range, and a flat bass setting, so be it. IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT IS GOOD. Every venue you play will be different, don't be afraid to twist the knobs. This is where it really pays to be able to get into the hall early and set up, there is no substitute for actually being out on the floor where you audience will be and seeing how your setup sounds.
Hope this helps,
Dave Waldman

#132187 - 08/14/00 05:37 AM Re: X1 users, I need your experience!
Marc Bischoff Offline

Registered: 11/25/99
Posts: 42
Loc: Rotterdam, NL
Thanks for all your replies. I know soundcheck is very important. I try to be always long time befoe at the place to have enough time for the sound. But I was wondering so much if anybody with a X1 has ever experienced also that the overall sound was to sharp and has too much bass. Different from what the headphone suggests. But I will defenetly try to connect via the line and not via the Mic.
One of the places I play has exactly the problem you mentioned. The speakers are hanging from the ceilling. Two to the audience and one to us. It causes only problems, but "they don't want the picture to be disturbed by extra speakers standing in the haal. Cosmetic reasons, before sound quality, thats often the reality.
A shame but true.


#132188 - 08/14/00 07:39 AM Re: X1 users, I need your experience!
Marc Bischoff Offline

Registered: 11/25/99
Posts: 42
Loc: Rotterdam, NL
No, that's not it. Eq is 0 almost voor every registration.
Sometimes I lift bass, or mid, or treble, but in general the eq is straight.

I checked that option already. Thanks anyway.

#132189 - 08/14/00 06:51 PM Re: X1 users, I need your experience!
Tom Cavanaugh Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/06/99
Posts: 2133
Loc: Muskegon, MI
I found something similar using the organ sounds. In the lower range they sounded great but in the upper range thin and tinny. The problem was solved using the master eq and boosting the proper range. In your case try to add some midrange and cut back a little on the highs.



#132190 - 08/16/00 11:45 AM Re: X1 users, I need your experience!
Roel Offline

Registered: 06/24/99
Posts: 1232
Hi Marc and all others,

I agree in NOT using a mic-input because of the 'bad match' in impedance en sensitivity.
You have to use a line-input.
One other thing I would not do myself :
Assigning the vocalizer-output to OUT-3, because this output is MONO.

The vocalizer has the best sound using it in stereo.

We use a 'small' PA system with a set of Mackie SRM450's and a 15" SUB .... they sound superb without the use of any EQ !

kind regards.

Roel de Jonge


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