Hello Friends, I would like to know if any of you may know or have previous experience as to what are the main differences between other arranger programs versus My stand alone Korg I30 arranger.
Other than the fact that on the I30 I have dedicated sliders and buttons for fills, variations etc, I would like to know if any of the PC arranger programs sound, or are as professional as the I30 or yamahas for that matter.
Why I want to know this? because Im thinking of someday giving my I30 to my son, and Maybe get the Triton Studio. But I know that the TS doesnt have arranger built in, and I thought, I have a PC and if I can program my arrangements on the PC connected to the Triton, or (Trinity for now), I may be able to make some good sounding songs. I dont want to make myself fake illusions of what is possible with the PC arranger program I really want to know what are their limitations other than the fact that you cant take it with you to the gigs. I for one, dont do gigs so I dont mind not having a keyboard for arranger purposes. I hope I made some kind of sense and realy thank you guys for all the help and attention.

Peace to all..

MusiKman

Frank Rosenthal might be one of the most knowledgeable folks here on this one, but I dabble a lot with software too, so I'll share what I have learned.

There are at least 3 programs I know of that will play the Yamaha style ( .sty ) files in real time( BTW, the Yamaha .sty, is not the same format as the .sty files associated with Korg arrangers or the program band in a Box ) . The three programs are One Man band, Live styler, and Real Time style performer. I use none of these myself. Instead I use Yamaha XG works software for this task. You cannot enter the style variations or chord changes in real time, but I have arrangers to do this for me. What it does do is allow me to step enter chords and variations of any Yamaha style or other style converted to yamaha sff ( .sty ) format. It also is useful for editing the parameters of my xg software module and the the voices from the plug in modules on my Yamaha Motif.

There are also a few arranger type software programs out there. For my money the two best are Jammer Pro and Band in a Box. Band in a box ( BIAB ) is a bit more like an arranger in that it uses prerecorded midi data inside of it's own styles, but in that respect it is a little limited if you want to be creative and stray from styles that don;t vary. Jammer pro uses algorithims for it's styles that can be fully or partially modified to suit your tastes ( more along the order of the way a Korg karma works vs an arranger ) . Jammer pro might be harder though for the user that has little or no background in putting together musical structures from scratch. Although it does come with pre made styles, they are not it's strength vs BIAB. The fact that they can be quickly modified to suit the user and can be made as simple or complex as the user would like is really it's strength.

There are other programs as well that do similar things, such as RMCA, Hi Play, etc.
There is also a program called Jazz sequencer that is great for making complex drum beats. The Midi Wizard allows you to make your own patterns as one would in the pattern sequencer of the Yamaha Motif workstation.

Is it doable on a computer vs an arranger ?You bet, and for me an arranger can sometimes be rather limited for composing and constructing original music vs some of the programs I have and have mentioned here. More often than not I like to play most of my parts in real time, layering track on track , but... these programs usually give me a great starting point and scratch pad for ideas, particularly Jammer Pro. In fact, although my midi drumming skills have improved, I still can't play some of the pieces that Jammer ( and to a lesser extent Jazz sequencer ) has made for me.


AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-26-2003).]

Frank,
I think the main reason that hardware wins this battle is because of "overall ease." There is no way a performer that sets up and tears down for each show will opt for a bulky, sensitive, clumsy approach, just to get a slight advantage in sonic quality. Now, granted the "slight" comment is an opinion, and I'm sure many will differ, but as a performer who relies on many setups - there will never be a justification (for me) to bring a completely PC driven rig to work. It's simply not the best way to access the features we need the most.

Fill-in's need to be at our fingertips, sounds need to be accessed at a split second's notice, and rhythms need instant access with plenty of variety. All this needs to be portable, roadworthy and aesthetically pleasing to the eye for stage appearances.

I still hate the look of music stands on stage with a solo performer ...... I'd really hate having a large PC monitor between me and my audience.

I have no doubt that your soft synth sounds are top notch, but in a performer's world of road use and modifications ...... I'll take the hardware route anyday.Home use may be a completely different story, but I applaud your efforts in "pioneering" this new technology ! Maybe someday ..... we'll all be playin' the soft way !

Hello Guys, thank you so much for the awsome input of ideas.
Basically, I understand that some folks love the stand alone arranger synth because of the overall use, but in my thread, basically all I want to know is the different programs out there that will do what Im doing now on my Korg I30 arranger.
Why, not because I dont love arranger keyboards, but because Im thinking of handing down mine to my kid to get him to love music. And, also because I dont do any gigs at all. So the portability issue is not an issue here at all. So please dont make it an issue. I just want your honest opinion and experience, and Im so great full for that.
I dont want to spend so much money on a certain software only to find out that it doesnt do what I need it to do.
Thats why I come to my friends here to ask.

Bluesplayer, Thanks for your input. That is the kind of info that is so useful;I really appreciate that. Im really good at making the melodies and all background tracks, but when I comes to making the Bass track or drum track thats where I suffer.
Sometimes I have some really cool songs I want to make but I cant transfer that song into the sequencer. I try and try and by the time I see that it doesnt work out, I end up losing all my inspiration.
Thats why I love the arranger keyboard, because it makes my inpiration flow. But sometimes once the inspiration flows I need to improvise on some of the stuff laid down by the arranger since it becomes too repetitious. I know you know what I mean. SO thats where I get in trouble becuase, even though I know how to play the Drums and base, its really hard to transfer that knowledge to the sequencer by playing the keys.
Frank, thanks for you advice also. I really appreciate it. I hope I dont irritate anyone. As im trying to find this information only for my own use and not try to say that this is the only way to arrange. I think that everyone has a way and style that works for them. Im just looking into moving foward and learning your ways... So thank you so much for your advice I truly appreciate it.

Bluesplayer, im going to look into the programs you mentioned....
I currently own, VST32 and Cakewalk homestudion 9. I dont have any clue as how to use them, but I wonder if they will also work with the arranger programs. Or do the arranger programs, have their own built in sequencer?
I once read about XG works, but I didnt know if it was an arranger program, or Seq prgm only. Thanks for the info on that.
either way, thanks to all the guys for the input..

Peace to all.

MusiKman

While XGworks is a sequencer in its own right, and has an auto arranger plug in, it is really designed for Yamaha XG modules (though it's equally good for General Midi as well). If you have an XG module it is the best piece of software around for that. However, it was never designed with arranger keyboards in mind so you have to do your own work on constructing the various tables etc., rather like adding instrument definitions to Cakewalk but much more complicated. So you can make it work for other than Yamaha products except that the generated sysex is Yamaha specific. I did the tables for the PSR740/2000 but you're own your own for any others.

Bryan

Pilot is right about the XG works software, and his workaround is good. I tried but could not easily revise the patch files, so I found another workaround. It's Michael P Bedesem's style updater, which allows me to change all of the patch and bank data for my many Yamaha styles.. I made my own patch list for the Motif and the PA80 inside of the software, and then changed my favorite Yamaha styles so that they would reflect the patch / bank setups of those ( non XG ) keyboards.

Jammer Pro has it's own sequencer, and while it isn't top notch like Cakewalk Pro 9 and Sonar, it is adequate and you can do additional editing with in CW pro. You might want to look at Cal scripts too. They include some vry good editing tools for midifiles in CW and there are plenty available for free d/l.

It sounds like you want a little more customized type of backing styles, so Jammer Pro might be more useful than BIAB, although BIAB's style making interface allows step entering of drum notes. Still, you can do sophisticated rythyms with Jammer a lot quicker once you get into and understand the interface. Soundtrek is due to release an upgraded version ( vers 5 ) fairly soon, and from what I gather via email and conversations with them, this should include more tools in general, a better sequencer, and the the choice of being able to use algorithims ( as it works now ) and prerecorded midi data for style building. I am very much looking forward to it's release.

CW 9 / Sonar doesn't work directly with arranger programs, but there are some very decent plug ins available for it, such as Slicy Drummer / Fill in drummer, and Rythym and Chords, which does fairly good rythym guitar emulations. Cal scripts are small files that work in CW 9 / Sonar which allow you to do many things with notes including create chords, vary velocity and length, and create arpeggios ( there are many other functions that they can do as well ) . While I'm not particularly good at making my own CAL scripts, I d/loaded a freeware program that allows me to make custom and detailed Cal arpeggios without the hassle of having to write out the actual Cal script info and data manually. Really cool stuff.
Oh and btw, Jazz Sequencer is now freeware, and so is the Midi Wizard ( formerly known as Drumz Wizard ), so that's a good place to start. Jammer pro is available as a demo and I believe that the demo version will allow you access most if not all of the functions, except of course that the ability to save files is disabled. I would suggest a d/l of the trial version first so that you can get a idea of how it would work for you and see how comfortable you will be with it. If I'm not mistaken, BIAB also has a demo available for d/l, as do The real time style players I mentioned in my previous post.

Good Luck,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-27-2003).]

Oh and btw, Jazz Sequencer is now freeware, and so is the Midi Wizard ( formerly known as Drumz Wizard ), so that's a good place to start.

Bluezplayer, do you mean The Music Wizard?

And Frank, we haven't heard you in a while
about your present flr system. How is
Kontakt working out for you? Have Vsampler,
and/or Seer systems released any updates
that addressed the program change issue yet?

Frank,
Nice to hear that Kontakt is working out
for you. And sorry to hear about your
XP troubles, but it sounds like you are
back on track.
Forgive me is I have asked you previously,
buy can you tell me if Kontakt has the
ability to do custom scales(like Unity)can?

Thank You guys for the info. I knew you guys wouldnt let me down. Im downloading Jammer Pro rright now... im going to look for the other stuff.... I hope I find the right sites..


Peace to all...

MusiKman

Hello Guys, I downloaded jammer Pro and it sounds really awsome going thru my Korg i30.
The only thing is I dont know in what mode I need to use it. Should I be in arrangment mode, Sequencer mode, or Program mode?
I have placed my i30 in To host mode, which I think means that it will be controlled by Jammer pro. Because when I hit play on JP my Korg i30 starts to playback. It sounds pretty nice man... Im so surprised. I just have to know exactly how to work it.
Oh, also, is there some way that I can tell jammer pro that im using my Korg i30 so that it know what programs im using ?
Thansk for all the help guys..

Peace,
MusiKman

I don't know the I30 very well, but I normally use my PA80 in either the program mode or the preformance ( arranger ) mode. The latter lets me use different effects setups for the PA80, but both ways work well. You will have to make your own instrument ( device) file for jammer pro for the I30 as I do not believe that model is currently supported. The I3 is supported but I have no idea whether the banks and patches are similar betweeen the two. It isn't hard to make your own device file at all. It is a bit time consuming though. I've made Jammer pro device files for the PA80, Motif, and PSR 740 / 2000. You can start it out in the software to get an idea what you'll need to insert and then once you understand what's going on in it you can also open the file up in wordpad / notepad and finish there. You'll need to know the bank and patch assignments for your instrument sounds ( this should be availaable in your I30 manual )

V questor.. I think I have also seen the Midi Wizard software listed as the Musical Wizard. Anyway, the program can be downloaded by going to http://www.mclink.it/personal/MC3796/


AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-28-2003).]

BP, the more I play with Jammer pro, the more im falling in love man !!! Seriously, The sounds coming out and the way the arrangements are made are truly professional sounding. I also loaded up Jammer live and it plays for about a minute then It quits because of course its a demo, but one thats where im confused.. Isnt jammer pro supposed to recognize my chord changes sort of like my arranger keyboard does?
I noticed that the only thing i can do is load up a demo song and hit play and it plays back in full fidelity thru my i30 but thats it. I dont see anywhere the option to use chords in realtime etc. Just like Jammer live does. I noticedd that jammer live does recognize the notes really quickly and I would say thats its just as good as my korg i30 chord recognition..

Another question. Say for example I make a song in Jammer pro, then you know how JP separates each drum track for you and you can change volumes,effects etc, Is there a way to load up this song into lets say, Cakewalk 9 home studio, or even Cubase VST32?
I have both of these programs for so long but I have never used them since Ive never really had the need. But I wondered if it would be possible. Why? because I wondered if I can have each midi instrument in its own track including the drums, then If I say, want the snare to have a special insert effect it, it would be so awsome. Is this possible guys?

Im so excited about this info. I think this is going to be so cool for me, since I do mostly home composittions and never ever do any gigs..
Guys I really thank you for all the help and advice. I so happy to be a part of this awsome music family !!

Peace,

MusiKman

This website has a page for listing arranger software:
http://www.synthzone.com/midiaccomp.htm

UInfortunately, no, Pro does not recognize chords in real time, but they can be step entered via midi keyboard. Jammer Live does play in realtime, but I don;t think you can create user styles on it with the ucurrent version.

You can save a midifile in Jammer Pro and then open it in CW ? Cubase, etc. When you do save a song made on jammer as a Midifile ( I recommend Type 1 ), remember to make sure that all tracks are selected, as Jaqmmer will only save selected trracks. I also recommmend saving the same song as a "Jammer song", because if you save only a s a midfile and you wish to modify the song inside of Jammer pro later on, you will niot have any of the style parameters available to edit.

AJ

Thanks for info BP, I really hope they bring this option on board. Otherwise its really no use to me. Im not so good at inputing chords etc. Really, I play only by ear and what I know. Thats why the Korg I30 is so useful to me because I get in the Backing sequencer mode, select my arrangement and go from there. Once the backing song is recorded I send it to the regular 16 track sequencer and do more edits if needed.
Thats what I was really looking for in a program that can arrange my music as I play it and also record it in realtime.
So do you think BIAB does this? Im going to have to do more research.
Thank you very much...Help is always very appreciated..

Peace,
MusiKman

MusiKMan, the needs that you describe are exactly what I developed my software OneManBand for. Take a look at it at www.home.zonnet.nl/josmaas/onemanband
If you find any function missing or inconvenient then let me know so that I can improve that in a next version.
JM

Awsome !!!!
JM thanks so much for the link.; Im going to download it. I really do dream to have that power on the PC. I think its so possible.
I read the reviews about Jammer pro and wow they are totally awsome, But when it came to chord recognition, It just wasnt there.. I want not only to be able to tweak the styles, change the arrangements, choose different instruments, improvise, I would love to also have the ability to play the chords in realtime and have it recorded in realtime just like the I30 does in its Backing sequence mode. Then once I laid the Backing sequence, I love to play it back and overdubb in separate tracks my Melodies or what ever I wish... Then If I still want to do more, be able to send it as a SMF to my sequencer and do more editing. I think itts all posible specially with the power of todays pcs. But look here I am saying this and I havent even tried OMB.. Im going to try it out and I will report. Thanks so much for everything guys. You guys are truly awsome!!!

Cheers,

MusiKman

Guys, I have a soundcard that I dont have installed right now since im using the Built in soundcard. Its more stable for some reason. But, The reason I say this is because that sound card came with a free Yamaha YXG50 synthesizer and It tried to copy it from the cd, but when I tried to install it, it wouldnt install. Do I have to install the entire sound card drivers? If do, will it work even thought the actual soundcard is not on my motherboard?
Please let me know since I dont wannna mess up my system since itts working really nice. I want to use the synth as a module for playback. Can you please let me know if this is posible..

Thanks..
MusiKMan

MusikMan, don't install the drivers if you don't have the soundcard on board. I can imagine that the S-YXG50 version that you have is restricted to work only with the soundcard that it came with. You can try to download a trial version at http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/html/midplug/m_mid8.htm to see if that works any better.

By the way it seems that there can be a latency problem when you use a software synth in a live performance tool. But that can depend on how fast your PC is.

JM

I also have a Yamaha TXG50 softsynth and for your info this will not install in Windows XP.
Yamaha have never provided an update for XP

Graham Uk

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 03-30-2003).]

Version 4.0 of the S-YXG50 should run on XP (according to the download site of Yamaha).

JM

Hello Guys,
Thanks guys for all the help. Im downloading the XG prgm righ now and also XG 3.0. By the way, Im running windows 98SE I, have XP pro but havent updated because I dont know if my system will handle it...

Thanks again,

MUsiKman

Hello Guys, I just found out about Styletraks built in to Cubase VST32. Do any of you guys have any experience with it. If so, can you please share it? Im wondering how, does it work in recognizing the chords. It seems to be a virtual arranger in some way, cause it can recognize your chords. Sort of like Jammer live... I hope I can get more info on this one. Im at work so I can t check it out. I never knew about this program...
WOW..

Thanks,
MusiKman

I do not. But I know two facts:

1) StyleTracks is kind of buggy in cubase 5.0

2) SX 1.0 does not have style tracks

There is a possibility that SX 2.0 might have it but that is a remote possibility

Thanks Frank,
I tried almost all of them. The one that really kind of took my eye was Jammer live. It did recognize my Chord changes etc. But I just couldnt configure it right.
Then I tried OMB and it also worked ok, but again, I couldnt get it to work fine either. For some reason, when the styles played back, the drums didnt sound right somehow. Even if I had my Korg I30 set to "LOCAL oFF".
The one that really sounded really awsome was Jammer PRO. IT really sounded pro all the way man. But, then I found out it doesnt recognize the chords.. So bummer that one brougth my spirits down.
RMCA didnt sound so pro like you mentioned. It also didnt sound quite right as well in the drums. EVen though I had it configured to GM sounds instead of XG. You see, IM using my Korg I30 to play back all the sounds.
Live styler, looked really promising, but I couldnt figure it out either. I dont know. But I just coulnt get it to detect my chord changes.
It looks pretty neat though.. Its probably something so simple, but since im trying to hard, maybe I dont see it.
Man, I need to just concentrate on one.
I havent tried BIB because its going to be pretty much useless for me.
I would really love to see more variations within a style.
You know, on my korg i30 I have say, two intros and two endings. Two FIlls and four variations.
What I really like about the variations is that as you go higher in the variations, the style becomes more punchy. It really helps built songs with spirit and punch that way. DO you know exactly how many variations one can have in total in livestyler?
Also, once I make a song in livestyler, I can save it as a SMF right? If yes, I then can use Cubase VST to edit more if I wish?

Thanks for your understanding and patience guys..

Peace,
MusIkman

MusiKMan, did you select GM mode in One Man Band? You might get strange drumsounds on your Korg in XG mode. It can also be that your Korg responds to a patch change in the drum channel even if it is not preceded by a bank select. I know the Audigy has a problem with that. It will be fixed in version 4.0.

JM

Musik,

Is it absolutely critical that you be able to control chord changes in real time ? See, when you said in the beginning that you were looking to create songs, I just figured programs like Jammer, BIAB, etc, might be the way to go for you. In these programs you enter the chord progressions ahead of time and it plays back. The chord structure can be quickly changed once you get the hang of it. If it is necessary though that you create chord changes "on the fly", then I would have to say ( at least for me ), that a real arranger is still more comfortable for me to work with than any software program. The disadvantage and one of the main reasons why I use Jammer Pro is that the style data of an arranger never changes ( unless of course I edit the style or make my own ). With "pro", styles can vary from measure to measure if you set them up that way. Even though BIAB uses prerecorded midi data, it too varies without changing variations because there are several different mini variations available within each style. I would like to see an arranger that does this. Still, if what I'm doing is writig songs, I don't need to be able to control the chord changes in real time.

As I said in my first reply to you, I have tried all 3 of the real time Yamaha based style programs and I don't use any of them. This isn't because they aren;t good programs ( they are ). The reason is that I find my arranger to be more user friendly if I need to change the chords " on the fly ".

Wanting to use a real arranger to control chord changes in real time kind of falls into the same territory for me as my desire to have knobs and real time controllers available to use when I play the synth. I can replicate and likely surpass the quality of sounds by using some of the modern day computer synthesizers / samplers, but... I lose a lot without the controller and knobs / sliders available on a synth to tweak and make adjustments "on the fly". I'm sure there are controllers out there that would allow me to prgram parameters to accomplish this, but would they be more comfortable to use than my synth / workstation ?

AJ

Thanks JM and BP for your help...
JoeMass, I do have it set up for GM. ITs weird because It looks pretty straight foward. I dont know, Ill will try it this weekend when Im more relaxed..
BP, I really want to learn how to do that. I want to learn how to be able to put the chords etc, but im not that good at song writing. You see, I basically know what chords im going to use in the song because of course im using my ear. I play mostly by ear. So when im making a song in arranger mode of my I30, I play the chords as the song is playing. Then in realtime I add the fill etc.. I have trouble knowing ahead of time how to calculate how many measures my song will have and exactly where to put the chords to match the measures. I hope im making some kind of sense, but I guess Im going to have to do some studying on how to do that. Either way, im going to try to do that somehow in Jammer pro this weekend. Im going to try a really simple song. Maybe thats how im going to get the hang of it.

Thanks for the help guys...

peace,
MusiKman

BluezPlayer

I agree that a software arranger is not much good on stage and I know that many in this forum do gigs. But there are also a lot that just play at home and have a PC in the same room.

If you are satisfied with the built-in styles in your arranger you don't need a software arranger. But what if you want to load external styles. It's no problem if you have a hard drive but an arranger keyboard with hard drive is not cheap. Are you really going to load diskettes until you found the right style? In OMB you can browse thru the styles on your PC using keys.

And what if you have your mind set on that fantastic new synth or workstation? Are you still going to use your old arranger keyboard when you have a synth with much better sounds and much better key action?

Almost everyone has a PC with at least 32 MB memory, 2 GB hard drive and 800 x 600 pixel display. Put this specifications on an arranger keyboard and you have a very expensive arranger keyboard. With a software arranger you can get this for a few bucks.

JM

JM, thats exactly how I feel. You hit it right on bulls eye. I have the Korg I30. Its an awsome arranger no doubt about it. But, lately, im really getting tired of having to load all kinds of styles via floppy, even though I have the Hard disk installed, it only holds 1 gig which is good enough, but I have to first load it via floppy no matter what. Why? because there is no other way to transfer styles back and forth to my Internal hard disk of the Korg i30.
So I kind of got desperate. And I wanted something else. Now, thats why I asked you guys for ideas and help.
JM, I think and now I know that you feel the exact same way like me. You see, I have a pretty decent pc. I think its powerful enough..Ok here are the specs:
1.4 gig Athlon, 512 megs ram, 40 gig hard disk and 17" monitor. thats about it. I dont have a soundcard except the one built in to the Motherboard, but it works just fine.
Now, My korg I30 I have it connected to the pc via "to Host" connection.
JM, is there a way, that you can program your program, so that it can use the keys of the PC keyboard to call up Intros, variation, fills, etc?
I kind of got really confused about using the actual synth keys for that.
I think both options would be awsome to have.
Also, is there a way that you can make it have more the just two variations. In other words, have the buttons assigned to have at least four variations. More would be awsome, as some songs, need more variations as the song develops, specially when the punch comes in. you know, sometimes towards the end or right before a guitar lead.....
I liked your program, I just couldnt get it to even recognize a single chord from my keyboard. I dont think my keyboard is the problem, I think i just havent configured the program right.
Ok, for example, this is how I have my keyboard configured.
I first go to clock settings. I select "TO host" Which is I guess both input and output of midi.
Now, then I go to midi filter settings and I select everything except Local on. I choose local off.
And thats it.
When I go home, IM going to write down exactly what filter settings i have checked or enabled.

ThNks guys.

MusiKman

MusiKMan,

In version 4.0 of One Man Band you can use the keys of the PC keyboard to call up Intros, variation, fills, etc. The beta test will start in the coming days. In the current version you already can play A, B, C and D variations by using the lower and higher variation keys. In V4.0 you can acces each level Fill In and Main with separate PC keyboard keys (and synth keys if you have an 88 keyboard). More then 4 levels would not be Yamaha compatible.

I assume your Korg has 61 keys, by default the highest key is the attention key. If you press this key you should see a picture of a split keyboard on the PC screen. If this doesn't happen your midi in port is not working.

Mouse click on the Sync Start button. You will see the picture of the split keyboard again. Check if the keys that you are using for chord playing are marked "chord" on the screen. Be sure that the keys for variations and intros are not mapped in the chord area. You can change this in the settings menu. By default the lowest 14 keys are used for chords. If you use 2 complete octaves for chord playing you will have to enlage this area. Be sure also to put the variation keys out of the way.

JM

Thanks JM, I will try to do this tonight. Im kind of really busy tonight so, I may not. Either way, yes, I did notice that the screen changed when I pressed that last key on my arranger. So thats cool cause then I know that it does work. Im going to check it out. I cant wait for Version 4. But for now, im going to try to work with this version to get the hang of things....
So, if I use GM I cant use Yamaha styles at all? Or one can use both?

Because if you could provide maybe the option to have more variations if one is not using a yamaha board. That would be so cool.
Thanks anyway and I appreciate your input my friend. God bless you..

Peace to all,

MusIkman

JM, I was reading the readme of your program, and it says to put my I30 in Midi mode,
Would this be in Sequencer mode?


cheers,
Musikman

Joe,

I do all that you mention without a real time computer program.. easily too. Even though XG works does not allow for real time entering of chords, it does allow for edinting of styles and variations in real time and I can easily browse styles and change them instantly in XG works ( while they are playing ). I can easily use my arranger as the controller for a module that might sound better than my arranger rather than using a piece of software ( Midi 101 ..lol ) . In fact I used Michael Bedesem's Style Updater to change a few of my favorite Yamaha styles so that I could use the voices on the Motif with the Yamaha styles. I've also controlled my Motif with the PA80 with no problem whatsoever.

Your program is very good as a playback machine Joe. I need a lot more than that though and I still think my arranger does it better whether at home or live.
In all honesty, the one reason that I don't use OMB is that I don't care for the way it switches style variations. ( I need ALL of my keys when I play ). I think we spoke about this before. If I could change styles / variations via controller messages instead, it would then become more useful to me, particularly with the Motif, which allows for many parameters to be set and controlled by the sliders and knobs.

I find for me, that arranger styles are good to work with, but also limited becaue they have set data, so using styles in general is just one of several tools I keep in the arsenal. If I didn't have an arranger, I would use OMB, but it really isn't a replacement for my arranger(s). I'd love to see an arranger or real time controllable software that employs both mid type styles and Karma / Jammer ( based on algorithims ). Algorithim type styles can be set up so that each instrument track can vary on it's own from measure to measure.

Still, you make some valid points Joe and I think that there is a lot to be said for using software programs like yours. It really is a good program that many users would find useful. It is one of several very useful tools that you can employ Musikman. Jammer is another. The good thing is that these programs don't cost a fortune and you can demo different ones. Even if you're not an expert, you might try working with it and inserting chords at various intervals. While it may seem a somewhat daunting task at first, you may be pleasantly surprised to find that after you work like this for a while, with trial and error as part of the process, it will make more sense to you as you go and you can learn more about music structure in the process.

AJ

MusikMan,

You can use Yamaha styles in GM mode (OMB only plays Yamaha styles).

I don't know exactly how your Korg should be set up. But every arranger keyboard can switch between arranger mode (when you use it as a stand alone arranger keyboard) and midi mode (when you use it as an keyboard controller for a connected device). When using OMB it should be in MIDI mode (or whatever this is called on a Korg). Otherwise the Korg and OMB will play each their own style.

Bluezplayer,

There are arranger keyboards and there are workstations. XG works and BIAB are virtual workstations. One Man Band is a virtual arranger keyboard. They can't really be compared.

To be able to respond to the sliders and knobs they must send midi signals. E.g if you think it is useful to have OMB respond to a pichbend with a Fill In, I can send you a beta that does that. But if you have OMB set up to do that you must realise you can't use your pitchbender any more for actual pitchbending.

The algorithims styles sound interesting. I think I will do some experimenting with that in the future.

JM

Joe,

On the Motif, the real time knobs, foot controllers, breath controller, and mod wheel can all be set up to send a variety of midi messages. Any of these are interchangeable. In other words, any of them can be set up to send any specific message available on the board, independent of pitch control, so I would still be able to use my pitch bend if the software recognizes only specific controller messages.

Thanks for the offer. I'm willing to try it to see how it might work out. You can send me a link if you'd like or send a zip directly to my email address ( available in my profile ). Perhaps there are some applications / uses that would make OMB useful to me, and it never hurts to have another good tool in the arsenal. If it does work the way I would like, I'll gladly purchase a finished copy Joe.

Best regards,

AJ

Frank and Bluezplayer, I just sent the beta versions. I hope it will satisfy some of your needs. After version 4.0 is released we must have some more discussion about algoritm styles and touch screens.

JM

Joe,

I didn't mess around with it a lot yet, but from the little I did, I find that the program is now is very useful to me and I'll be registering it shortly. The CC options worked fine with my foot controller from the PA80. Of course, the PA80 doesn't have a lot of control options ( although the foot contoller allows for five different parameters ). I didn't try it with the Motif yet but it will certainly work fine with all of the real time control I can add to it. It also works nice with my computer xg module and the computer keyboard. Well done.

Now .. the algorithims. That I like a lot. I wish I had your ability to write programs because my imagination can run wild with this stuff. I envision a Jammer Pro / Karma type interface that also plays midi based styles ( such as Yamaha's / BIAB ) all wrapped up in one program. I am able to do that now by syncing one program with another, but it would be great if I could do it with one program. I am waiting for Soundtrek to release their new version of Jammer, which by their own account should integrate both types of styles, but I like the way you created OMB Joe, and the interface is excellent. I think with your ability and common sense approach ( your program's interface is very much to my liking ), you could create an awesome program. Even better would be a dxi or vst version that I could open in my sequencer. ( now I'm asking a lot huh ?..lol )

Frank, I'm not opposed to using the computer and soft synths at all for studio work. There are some sounds that I've heard that are definitely better in the soft synths I've used. Physical modeling is also a tool that I am interested in, and of course I already use it with my Motif. The sax / reed / horn sounds that I can make when using a breathe controller sound real enough to fool some pretty well trained ears. That said, I don't want to bring a computer to a live venue. It is absolutely feasible, but I prefer my arrangers / synths for a couple of reasons. I want to keep it simple and have it all on my board when I play and not have to think about using my keys or a controller setup to change style variations. It's all there for me already, and while the sounds may not always be as good as some of the sampler / soft synths offer, they are definitely good enough for live work. It is more important to me to focus on entertaining my audience than worrying about what buttons to press because I brought a computer that has a soft synth with a slightly better sound, and the arranger approach keeps it simple enough that I can do that.

AJ

Hi Guys,
I read these posts with interest but I want to know what is average the price (all included) of a good sounding pc based arranger system.
Thank you
STAM

This statement buy Frank Rosenthall really get me thinking that this is the way to go: "Finally, my system sounds so good - I could not go back to another hardware based piano, guitar, trumpet, sax - you know what I mean."

What if I used an arranger to play softsynths. Wud I then be able to program OMB to use the fill buttons?
Starkeeper

Hello JM, I was able to get the program to recognize my chord changes and even play back some of the styles while it recognized the chord changes. I was also able to call up the fill in and ending via my keyboard...
Pretty cool. Its kind of hard to get used to though.. It usually use the entire 61 keys for playing etc.
Im so glad that youre working hard on the new version. I think Frank and BP are the best guys for the testing. They know what we want and need. I just kind of hope that we get the chance or choice to use more variations per style. It make the arrangements more interesting and that much more varied..
Either way, I cant wait to see the new version. Also, I dont know if you can add little Icons. It also kind of helps those of us that are not so computer pros. Little Icons, like the ones in Jammer pro help a lot and not only that, they make things easier to see or stand out.
I would also love the opportunity to be able to connect it to VST or Cakewalk somehow. I dont kno wif this is a possibility or it would require too much work. Either way, I think real progress is being made. Thanks buddy I realy appreciate your work.
By the way, if I wanted to register my copy that i have right now, do you accept PayPal?

Thanks,

MusiKman

During the beta test I only do bug fixes and small changes to the new functions. But after the release, in stead of waiting half a year for the next release, we must get some OMB development club together. I could put new versions with experimental features at a separate webpage. And then we could discuss it in a thread in this forum.

JM

But FR,
why do that. Thats no problem if this is an open public forum.. I think the people that would participate are the ones interested and those that dont, well, just dont care. And thats fine also. I think that we shouldnt have to run away with this awsome idea. Hey, JM is doing this to save us tons of money, where as that money would have to be spent on hardware, when it can be betterspent on upgradeable software. Now, JM, you may suddenly begin to get offers to buy you out..I wouldnt be surprised. Because the more people move in to software, the lower the sales of Hardware synths are going to be. Its just simple economics.
But on the other hand, Please remember that when I started this thread, I said that I basically want to get help from all you guys. The ones that dont care dont give help. BUt the ones that do, like yourself, JM, and BP, and others are helping.
Thats what matters. I know what you mean though FR. I have read many of your previous threads and have seen how you have been attacked by your views and opinions.
Thats why, I think its extremely important that this is kept open minded and not to influence or force on to anyone the idea that only Software arranger is the way to go.
PLease dont get that idea anyone. If JM is kind enough to spend countless hours developing his awsome software for the benefit of the arranger community, then I in my humble opinion, support and back him all the way. Why, because in the end, the entire community will benefit.
Why? simple. Choices..
Because having choices is what make life that more interesting and wonderful.
I love having the choice of having a hardware synth if I wish to do live gigs. And also Software arranger if all I do is home recording and composing.
Now, the real issue comes like this. Am I forcing everyone to accept that Software arrangers are the "ONLY" way?
Absolutely not !!
I think that everyone would appreciate that this is only in the best interest of all arranger community and for the development of software that will eventually help everyone at a low cost with extremely high functionality....

That is why JM, dont give up on that dream bro... If I had your brain, or even if I could download your knowdlege into my brain, Believe me, I would run with this idea. Hey, it may make you a good fortune someday....

Peace to all...

MusiKman

I don't really see why there should be any objection to us discussing / working on this here. The topic itself is on fire ( looking at the number of posts ). I think that it is defintely related to the arranger itself and I do not feel it in any way compromises the purpose of this forum. Also, we don't all agree on everything, but the thread has remained polite and we seem to have been able to agree to disagree and the discussion has progressed in a good and useful direction.

I like to be able to keep all of my options open. As I explained before, I think that no matter what comes in the near future, I will find that I will probably still want to use my arranger(s) for some things ( live work ..keeping it simple works best for this player ). On the other hand, I use other boards, synths, software, etc for studio / composition and at least for me, some of the software I have works hand in hand with my boards, rather than acting as an absolute and final replacement.

Maybe some live players would be comfortable going the software route. I can't speak for everyone else. I just know what works for me. Programs like Jammer, BIAB, Jazz seq, and now OMB, along with some others, plus the soft synths, are excellent tools for me, and I think if a tool works, you use it, period.

Frank, your knowledge of soft synths is a plus and I'm sure that I'll have questions for you as time goes by. I'm very satisfied with the horn / reed sounds that I have now via the VL board, ditto the synth sounds of the AN150. I am always looking for better guitar sounds, but I think without good physical modeling tools, I've reached a plateau. I've worked hard to build guitar patches on the Motif that sound realistic, ( my own "megavoices" if you will and I like them a lot ) but I am still interested in trying more via physical modeling tools and soft synths. I can live with the Motif acoustic pianos, ( not a huge staple sound for me anyway ) and the electrics are "grand" ( no pun intended ). I like the Rhodes and wurli sounds a lot. I need better organs. The Motif's are weak. The PA80's are good, but I want better. Strings are another thing. I don't really like any synth violin patches that I've ever heard / played. Based on all of the dynamics involved in making a violin sound, this seems to be another sound that needs modeling to enhance it. More to follow....


Keep up the excellent work guys.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-04-2003).]

Update:

So far so good Joe. I like the new beta version of your program with the updates and I registered it right after I wrote the post saying I was going to do so. It was easy to control var up and var down via two of the Motif's assignable knobs and I used the extra foot switch as the fill in button. It works like a charm. I actually COULD use this for playing at a live venue if I really had to, and if I ever get a cheap laptop, I might consider loading the program up and using it as a backup should my arranger go on the blink. Of course I still think that I'd be more comfortable the traditional arranger way, but I think that OMB is in general a very useful piece of software for me that works well at the home studio and could be pressed into service for live work as well. I've said from day one with the Motif that I always wanted one with arranger functions. Now I have it. Great Job on this Joe.

I can now use the Yamaha styles with the Motif and really play it as an arranger board. The one problem I did have was that the voices don't match up properly. Most midi boards use patch number 26 for instance for a Jazz guitar voice. The Motif uses midi patch numbers 91 - 93 in one of its banks. Thanks to Michael P Bedesem's style updater program, I was easily able to convert the voices of a few of my favorite Yamaha styles so that they correspond with the Motif. I know I'm not supposed to modify any of your software according to your disclaimer Michael, but I took the liberty of modifying the patch list so that it has all of the Motif patches in it. This way I don't have to enter the patch, cc0, and cc32 data manually. I hope you don't mind.. It sure beats converting the style to a midfile, doing all the patch / cc data work in Sonar and then having to convert the midifile back to a Yamaha style.

I hope Frank will reconsider a little and pitch in here again. Your input would be greatly appreciated here Frank. I dabble with this stuff, and know my way around it fairly well, but not at all to the degree and with the amount of experience that you have.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-07-2003).]

AJ, I am glad that you are pleased with the latest revision. Is it true that the Motiv is not GM compatible (in bank 0)? You can use the MIDI mapper for this problem if you install an instrument definition file (*.idf) in windows multimedia-configuration. I don't know how to obtain or build such an idf file though.

Frank, I hope you will cheer up. A few days ago you sounded so enthousiastic and now you are "too old"? It's obvious that many here value your opinion on this subject and lean on your knowledge.

JM

Joe,

The Motif is GM compatible but while some of it's GM voices are ok and a few are even very good, others do not sound all that good to me. Also, the GM drum data does not translate properly, so I have to manually set it up it anyway. Another problem is that the Motif uses patches 1 thru 128, rather than what your software and most other midi modules I've worked with use ( 0-127 ), so really none of the instruments translate properly. I will try your suggestion and see if I can make a patch map / ins. file, but if I'm not able to obtain the proper file, the other method I use of converting style patches in Michaels program is acceptable to me.

The software does sound good and works fine with my software XG module and my PA80 as well. I'm also contemplating doing a " best of " GM based soundfont bank, taking and sampling the best of my Motif, PA80, soft synths, and other soundfont voices.

Cheers,

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-08-2003).]

JM
Microsoft did an IDF editor for Win95 (IDFEdit) which you can still download from various places on the net. Look for idfedit.zip - it's only 86kB.

Bryan

Wow!! You guys are really making awsome progress...
I wont be able to register until the end of the month. My budget is so tight I barely have enough for the gas right now. ITs so expensive here in the south bay...Either way, Im so glad that its looking better and better.
BP, is there a way to program OMB to work with my Korg Trinity?
My korg trinity is not GM compatible unless I load a GM setup disk and it takes away some really awsome sounding patches. But, I wonder if it would be possible to set it up in a way that it works with OMB.
I know that the drums dont sounds correct if it doesnt have the GM drums installed, so I wonder how would I be able to get this straight in order to use it with OMB?
Do you have any ideas?

Cheers,
MUsiKman

Musikman, I would use some kind of GM or XG (soundcard or softsynth) device for the accompaniment and then use the Trinity for the multivoices. You can use the MIDI mapper to assign the accompaniment channels (9-16)to the internal synth and the multivoice channels (1-8) to the external Trinity. That is as far as I would go with redirecting things with the MIDI mapper. I tried to install an IDF file in which I redirected the harmonica patch to strings using IDFedit. But whatever I tried in the multimedia configuration tool, it kept blowing the harmonica.
JM

I'd have to ask Joe because I haven't tried this yet, but... you could convert the patches for the styles in his software to correspond to your Trinity and I think... you can save those changes. The hardest thing about doing that or even the way I do it in Style Updater is that each instrument track for each variation has it's own set of patch and controller instructions. For an 8 voice style with up to 15 variations counting fill ins, endings, intros, etc.. well.. when ya do the math it works out to 120 changes and of course without the shortcuts Michael's program gives me, if I have to rewrite each CC and patch into the file = 360. Whew... I can actually convert all the patches in a style in his program in a mater of 2 or 3 minutes.

Hmm... I wonder if there is a way to add a "freeze" function that would allow me change the patches once and then the software would ignore any further CC0, CC32, and patch messages ? What do you think about this idea Joe ?

Of course I can do this now with the Motif and the PA80 from within their own Operating systems, but not every software synth allows for this. The "lowly" Casio MZ2000 had a function that let me call up or recall any instrument / mixer setup I wanted, no matter what the style. I could also switch styles and use the freeze function on it to keep the instruments the same.

AJ

I was hoping that all the non-GM devices would have retired by now, but it seems there is still work to be done regarding this.

If there where a lot of IDF files available for all kinds of synths, we could use that. But I couldn't find any so we might as well start from scratch. Then we can not only redirect from patch to patch but also from bank/patch to bank/patch. If we connect some tool at the MIDI-out port that stores all C0 and C32 messages that are sent. Then when a patch comes along it first looks up the what C0 and C32 have been sent on this channel then looks up the translation in the instrument definition table. And then it sends the complete translated bank select C0, C32 and Patch.

It would be like a MIDI Mapper with bank select capabilties. You can define generic patch changes that will translate a patch number in any bank to a new bank/patch or translate detailed bank/patches to bank/patches.

Maybe such a tool already exists?

It would be a lot of work though to define all the patches in all the banks. But you could of course start with the ones you actually need in the styles you are using.

JM

Wow!!! That was deep JM... Cool, I love all the tech talk stuff. Blows my mind but sounds so interesting.
You know, I think there is an IDF for the korg trinity and Korg I30 for use with cakewalk. I dont have it, but if I find them, would they help?

Peace,
MusiKman

The files you refer to are cakewalk .ins files, and they are widely available for many synths. Unfortunately, they aren't the same as an .idf file. Herein lies the biggest problem for me. Each software manufacturer uses his / her own proprietary format for a particular piece of software, so while I've been fortunate to find Motif and PA80 files already available for Sonar, I've had to make new ones up for nearly every other software I have. Jammer pro uses a different format, BIAB still another, N track's sequencer another, etc etc..
I've made entire patch lists for Jammer and BIAB for both of my keyboards, and since I was able to edit them in notepad, things were a little easier. Still it gets tedious. I cut it down a lot in the Style Updater program. I wish there was a standard, such as the way midi is supposed to work. Of course Yamaha has put it's own spin on the midi "standard" by using patch numbers 1-128 for GM as opposed to the standard 0-127.

AJ

AJ, I understand there is a GM bank in the Motiv and if it is bank 0 there should be no problem in OMB if you select GM. If the GM bank is not bank 0 then I could make that a user defineable parameter.

Are there stll any synths in production that don't have a GM bank?

Are there any other files besides IDF that are used for patch/bank reassignments? I thought the cakewalk INS files where just for adding descriptions to patch/banks.

I did some experimenting with the IDF. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The Multimedia/MIDI configurations tools now shows a long list of virtual devices attached to my MIDI out. I can't remove them because there is no function for that.

The freeze function sounds strange to me. If you have a trumpet sound in channel 15 then it will stay that way in the next style. While, maybe it should be a guitar?

JM

Joe,

The Motif does have a GM bank, and it is bank 0, but the actual patch numbers themselves are setup from 1-128 as opposed to the standard 0-127. That's why it doesn't recognize the drums on channel 10. If you send a "0", no matter which bank or channel you use, the Motif always reverts to the GM acoustic piano. Also this is a problem lets say if I am supposed to get a gm acoustic bass sound coming from the style. The standard GM uses patch #32. Since the Motif is "off" by one, I get guitar harmonics with patch #32 ( normally patch 31 on standard GM ).

You're right about the freeze function in a lot of respects. Some yamaha styles do change patches from variation to variation, but with the problems of matching patches, once I set up the patches in my module to correspond to the style, I usually ignore this and just keep the patch the same anyway.
Even though it doesn't allow for an "authentic' replication of the style, it usually sounds good in spite of it. The other cool thing about the MZ2k freeze is that I could take the instrument setup from a jazz fusion style for example and quickly apply it to a funk style.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-11-2003).]

AJ,

The Motiv must accepts patch changes 0-127 (or hexadecimal 00-7F). In MIDI there is a strict distinction between databytes and statusbytes. Databytes are always 0-127, statusbytes are always 128-255. 128 would be the statusbyte for note-off. A lot of synths specify their patches and notenumbers in the manuals as 1-128 but that's just the difference of computer language (0-127) and human language (1-128). Computers call the first 0, humans call the first 1. If the guitar harmonics is 32 on a scale of 1-128 then that is hexadecimal value 1F and that is the correct GM patchnumber for guitar harmonics. Wether you call this 32 on a scale of 1-128 or 31 on a scale of 0-127 or XXXII in roman numbers, it will stil be hexadecimal value 1F. In OMB and most other software the notation is 0-127 so just use any GM patch lists that goes 0-127 and use that numbers if your editing for any GM bank including the one on your Motive.

So what I'm trying to say is that if you play GM midi files or when you play styles with OMB in GM mode, it should sound allright on your Motiv GM bank. If it doesn't there must be some other problem.

JM

My understanding of the hexidecimal system as it applies to midi is minimal at best. I'm quite sure you are right Joe, but in the end, it still doesn't work right for whatever reason on the Motif, and no matter what I do I can't get the drum sound right.

It isn't that big of a deal for tyhis user anyway, because I'm not particularly interested in using the GM sounds of the Motif. Some of them are very good (GM Ac and el pianos are excellent ), many others are not. ( GM guitars / reeds / organs are among the worst ). If I'm not able to make an instrument file that will correspond to the preset Motif voices, I'm better off going my original route and just altering the styles themselves. In this manner, I never have to adjust anything again once I've altered the style.. just load it up and play, whether it be OMB or a Yamaha arranger controlling the Motif. This is the only solution I can see that will work in real time ( quickly ) anyway in order to avoid the GM patches.

I use several user voices too. In the end I don't need to converted a lot of Yamaha styles. I use a small amount in real time, and I rarely use them for finished compositions, preferring to make my own backing tracks. I do use them sometimes just to start an idea though, then go back and replace the parts later on. This is where OMB can be most useful to me. I can quickly set down different progressions and build from there.

AJ


AJ

Jos,

I registered OneMan Band recently, and I'm interesting in testing out the beta version as well. Could you send it to me?

Thanks.

Charlie T.

Sorry, I should have checked your website first.

By the way, in following this thread, I see a lot of people responding to Frank R.'s comments, but I don't see the posts that are being referred to. Is there some filter on the BB?

Charley,

For some reason Frank removed all his postings. See the thread about this.

JM