I just received and installed NI's Bandstand. I will do a more complete assessment once I have more experience. Here are the first impressions as used with styles only:

I get some distortion originating somewhere in my software .... likely in forte Ensemble. The soundcard does not show that it is being overdriven.

It looks like the various instruments are accessible but at this stage I don't know whether I can exchange them with instruments of my choice.

Bandstand claims to be GM, GM2 and XG compatible....as per the manual. This could be correct especially as it relates to the various sound modifying/midi commands. It only has 128 instruments and therefore does not accept Bank Changes. This means you need to stay within the 128 instrument format (GM).

BandStand does accept program changes. I did have some hiccups, in that, on some styles it did not instantly load the appropriate instruments. I need to set the buffers to fit my system....I think.

All Drums need to be on Channel 10 (GM). This means changing all Yamaha styles to the GM Standard. I have not completly checked the voicing of the individual instruments within a drumkit. Styles converted with EMC from other keyboards to Yamaha work and sound good.

You will likely need to re-voice and re-mix the Yamaha styles to suit Bandstand and your requirements.

If I can get everything working the way it should and the way it is designed then my plans are as follows:

I will still use higher quality instruments and kontakt for my lead voices. I will however downsize and use Garritan's Jazz & Big Band and Personal Orchestra, Colossus, Kontakt 2 Library, Kontakt 1 Library, etc. For my very favorite (most important instruments) I will continue to use top of the line virtual instruments (Organs, Pianos, Sax, etc.). I will likely acquire NI's Akoustic Pianos. I am still looking for that perfect set of virtual saxophones. These are hard to do and find. In the meantime I will use what I got.

I will use NI Bandstand for my auto accompaniment and do the necessary style modifications. I think many of the acoustic instruments are provided by Sonic Reality. These instruments are good enough for accompaniment but not good enough for me to use as lead instruments....I am spoiled.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-22-2005).]

Thanks for your evaluation Frank. I am not certain yet whether Bandstand will be the right choice for me, but I look forward to hearing more about it and how it works out for you. My question is, for style voices only, whether it's a major step up from something like the SGM180 soundfont.

I used the AJM2006 arranger system with my Motif ES as my controller and OMB and my somewhat modified SGM180 soundfont as my style player at a live performance on Friday night. It went relatively well, and all in all it sounded good. I'm not 100% sure, as it is setup right now, that it's a better alternative than a top end arranger in live performance though.

Pros, Cons, and tossups as follows for me vs using the PA80 in live play:

Pros:
Very easy to play and change variations/ intros/endings with the ES as my controller.

Superb lead voices. Huge gain over the PA80. Also better overall effects.

Every manufacturers brand of styles sounded relatively good without tweaking.

I have one shot sequences setup that work in a similar manner to Yamaha's Multipads. This is a tossup vs a Yamaha arranger but a big gain vs the PA80's pads.

Cons:
Not as easy to change styles or voices on the fly.

Overall the interface is less intuitive. Not always plug and play like a hardware arranger.

No harmonizer ( I could add an external one )

No registrations that are easily accessible like the performances on the PA80. I do have several setups stored in chainer, but I have to use a mouse to access them.

Having to use a mouse to do some other functions.

Tossups:

Style voices pretty good in either system.

Midifiles play relatively well in both systems.

In the end, I still think I lean toward a top quality ( better than the PA80 ) hardware arranger in live play, but in a studio or even home use setting, the AJ2006 is a clear winner for me.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-22-2005).]

Thanks for posting your initial review. If Bandstand doesn't allow instrument changes, then I probably have no real reason to get it, as I don't need auto accompaniment except for drums.

For virtual saxaphones, have you checked out the demos at: http://www.chrishein.net/index.htm ?

A full-blown natural sounding sax sample maybe doesn't exist, but I'm considering splurging on this horn library when it becomes available.

Frank, it has been a while since I used OMB or LiveStyler but I believe that OMB has a feature to automatically remap the style to GM format vs XG. Keep us posted on your progress to make Bandstand work. Thanks.

Thanks Frank,
be interesting to know whether the drums do have xg mapping as well as gm.
On the whole though, would the sounds be ok as lead instruments? if we weren't quite as spoilt as you with your wonderful collection of sampled sounds.
Are they much better than the soundfonts you're currently usingfor styles.

Hi AJ,
I suppose the presets in OMB wouldn't work with your setup?

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]
Cons:
No registrations that are easily accessible like the performances on the PA80.

Hi Rikki,

In most cases, no. Many of the softsynths I use for lead voices don't recognize bank or patch changes.

AJ

Thanks for all your comments and interest in this subject.

AJ & Rikki at this time I would say the quality of sound may be only marginally better than something like SGM180....not enough to warrant the costs to purchase Bandstand. For me it is the appropriate direction to take given that Bandstand has the same sampler engine as kontakt together with high quality effects. It streamlines my system....very elegant.

Quasar, I am not quite certain about your comment. NI Bandstand accepts program changes from a software sequencer or a keyboard controller keyboard. The thing I am not certain of at this point is whether I can replace one of their saxophones with one of my own. They seem accessible but I need to try it first before I comment further on this.

OLEG7, thanks for your link to the virtual saxophone....I'll take a look. Furthermore, you are correct in that I could use OMB to convert the styles from XG to the GM format.

Rikki, I have not fully checked the drums to see if they conform sufficiently to the XG standard. I will let you know as soon as I can.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-22-2005).]

Thanks Frank,
unless it was outstandingly better, I think I'll just stick with the fonts. They'll give me more flexibility.

I've been thinking about upgrading the memory in my laptop and maybe even getting an external hard drive. I'm starting to realize how limiting my 512mb of memory is , if I eventually want to get sample based software as lead instrument.

I even noticed Garriton is bringing out a "Lite" version of it's orchestra.

Wondering if anyone's had anything to do with Sampletank2 or http://www.philharmonik.com/Main.html?prod_MP

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]
AJ & Rikki at this time I would say the quality of sound may be only marginally better than something like SGM180

Thanks Frank. I very much value your opinions on this gear, particularly because you remain unbiased about it. I too will stick with the SGM180 unless something substantially better comes along.

I still think the VL150 plug in I have in the Motif ES does the best sax emulation of anything I've ever heard to date. Had Yamaha not abandoned the SYXG-100 plug in I would also have a software version of it ( no support for XP ).

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-23-2005).]

Rikki, I think Garritan is doing a very good job of producing virtual acoustic instruments at a signicantly reduced byte size. He also has the big version which are excellent, e.g., Garritan Strings.

AJ, you are likely right that it will take something like Yamaha's VL150 plug in to come anywhere near a good sounding Sax. I currently have layered a few sax samples and use velocity switching to get at them. I come somewhat close to that dirty old blues sax (smoke, spit, wheezing and other delightful sounds)....oh well.

Thanks Frank. I was beginning to get concerned because NI still doesn't have any MP3 demos online of Bandstand. I'd like to hear it play something, anything.

I am also still a little curious as to how playable the stand-alone piano sound is in Bandstand (GM Patch #1)? Also, have you had a chance to notice how CPU-intensive Bandstand is? I noticed that it includes convolution reverb which often takes a lot of processor power to run.

FYI: Keyboard magazine has done a review of NI Akoustic Piano in the newest edition (Dec. 2005). Here's an interesting quote:

"There's no question Akoustic sonically surpasses hardware stage pianos, for example, the S90 ES used as a test controller, whose "Natural S" patch is certainly no slouch...".

We have been saying that you could get a better piano from softsynths than hardware and Keyboard has officially vindicated this. Keyboard further goes on to compare Akoustic with Ivory, basically saying that Akoustic is more in-your-face while Ivory is more intimate, and that Ivory seems to be less CPU-intensive... Akoustic's convolution reverb and 10-layer samples suck the juice out of a computer apparently and the reviewer said there aren't enough "lite" options to make Akoustic less hungry, which is why it did not get a Key Buy award apparently. They did not definitively say whether Ivory or Akoustic was better (of course) but the review for Akoustic was glowing except for the CPU aspects.

Esh, I haven't had a chance to test instruments on an individual/lead basis. On my computer everything seems to work ok in terms of load and RAM use. In fact, I have everything loaded (forte, Audio IN/OUT, Antares, DecaBuddy, B4 II, Kontakt, Bandstand and Sonitus Effects. CPU usage sits somewhere around 45 to 50% with about 750 Megs of 2GBs of RAM still available. This includes loading 8 large instruments into Kontakt.

Esh, thank for pointing out some of the issues concerning NI's Akoustic Piano. There are some issues remainging with kontakt 2, B4 II as well as Bandstand. In fact, in my Bandstand package there is a notice of an update for it on there web site to correct some problems. I have yet to find this update.

I have still not found my periodic distortion I am getting from Bandstand. The loading of instruments for styles is fast but not instant. This could be my buffer setting....I have not found the answer as of yet.

There is no doubt once everything will be up and running (and I think it will) it will be a good sounding system.

I still get excited over all this new stuff. Progress is being made on all fronts for the benefit of musicians and their customers.

Forgive me if I seem a little slow these days I am old and sick. At best I can work at my computer for only an hour or so. But I will get there.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-23-2005).]

Thanks for the review Frank. I always read your (and all) posts on software arrangers.

Rikki, What are you using now for your accompaniment voices? Are you using SGM180? I think you purchased something from Reason (I think).
Starkeeper

Frank: thanks and feel free to take your sweet time with this stuff. This should all be about reducing stress, not causing it. We're all a little anxious to know how your progress goes just because it's exciting but noone here is in any hurry.

Some more info:

This month's Keyboard on p14 under their "rumors" section is hinting that Yamaha is about to buy another "European software powerhouse" which could "consolidate the market even further". They go on to hint that Yamaha is about to "get it's software act together in a very big way" and that laptop musicians made suddenly find themselves suffering from "option overload". None of this is said directly but it's all phrased in such a way that you get the idea.

You may recall that Yamaha bought Steinberg and thus acquired VST technology, but have as of yet to release any softsynths. Also, I noticed on the last page of Keyboard that there is an ad for CME keyboards which says "distributed exclusively in the US by Yamaha America" (the mLan capability of the CME's was a clue but this is the first confirmation I'd seen of the Yamaha/CME partnership).

So I'm hazarding a guess: Yamaha has bought somebody like Native Instruments or Zero-G and will announce a major set of softsynths to go with it's fleet of controllers and proprietary synth technology at Winter NAMM. I think this will have major implications for all of our "flr2006" systems.

Esh, my those are exciting rumours/news concerning the emerging world of Yamaha. I for one can't wait for the day that the big guys get into this in a big way and get the job done right. I would galdly see my flr2006 become obsolete and embrace a better new world in music making devices and support.

I have done some more testing of individual instruments in NI Bandstand and find they sound every bit as good as those in any top of the line hardware based keyboards including the pianos. I think the pianos are sampled by NI in fact. However, it is not as good as Ivory or Akoustic. You know when you sit down and play one of these virtual acoustic instruments .... it feels & sounds so close to the real thing. It feels so good to play such instruments with high quality accompaniment of drums (brush), bass, piano and say trumpet ensemble. It is really really really good. I am excited about all of this and the news or rumours you provided....how exciting.

An interesting aside, I can't load these instruments into kontakt. It reminds me to get a newer version of kontakt....I have the newest version. The first sign that one may not beable to replace instruments within Bandstand.

It turns out I have one or two of the following problems in my system with NI Bandstand:

Midi loop between Live-Styler and Bandstand or...

Note off messages required by Bandstand in all cases within the Auto Accompaniment.


I did not have any of this with LiveSynth Pro and Live-Styler. I will get to work with the various parties and get this solved. I will try OMB later on and see if it suffers the same fate with Bandstand. You know I want Bandstand to work within my system. It makes for a consistent, elegant and high quality system of hardware and software. Again, I think it will happen!!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-23-2005).]

What? Now this is very exciting news.
Starkeeper

Frank,

Seeing this part of your message brought such a smile to me, that I had to respond.
That is what this is all about I think, the happiness and joy that the gift of music brings ( sorry if I sound like "Estaban.. lol ).

I may have been a little guilty of hijacking this thread when I responded initially, but there were some definite positives in using the AJ2006 in a live stetting as well. I sometimes think of you when I play on it, because I don't think the system would be anywhere near what it is right now without all of the helpful advice and guidance you have provided here. Thank You for that, because it has meant a lot to me.

Now, as I mentioned, the positives: The Friday night gig was at a party with my coworkers, many of whom have seen me perform in the past. A few are also musically inclined and play at various levels. The response I received from playing "Real Guitar" and Prosounds Fretted electrics was almost one of disblelief. Disbelief in that the sounds were not coming from an actual guitar.

Ditto when I let out a few sounds from the Arturia Moog module and B4. A couple of the guys who have some synth knowledge couldn't believe how B4's organs came across. Imagine if I had a pair of Leslies...

I will probably wind up with a Tyros 2 in the near future, and I'm sure I'll be very happy with it, but nothing in today's hardware ( in my mind and opinion of course ) can match the brilliant lead sounds that come from the AJ2006. Since my laptop goes just about everywhere that I play, even with the PA80 or OMB as my backup band, I think I'm already pretty well set no matter what I get from here..

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-23-2005).]

Starkeeper & AJ, thanks for your comments. I just want to make sure I am not being misinterpreted with my quality comments. The NI Bandstand is good quality .... as good as say the Tyros but not nearly as good as say the NI AKoustic Piano, B4 II, Garritan Strings, VRSound Sax and so on. In fact, I would say that Garritan's GPO and Jazz & Big Band are of better quality then the NI Bandstand. However, Bandstand will be well good enough for live performances but not quite up to studio work.

I just like the Bandstand & kontakt combo. I have the full quality range under my thumb with the same sampler engine and effects. It is not perfect....in fact there are some irritating bugs but these will be fixed no doubt.

Going back to Esh's comments....it would be nice if corporations such as Yamaha and others picked up their socks and built keyboards with the appropriate control surfaces and giving us the flexibility to install the sounds, effects and styles of our chosing. The day will come.....

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-23-2005).]

Hi Esh,
that would be truly exciting, whether that means we'll end up with a softsynth that works with our styles, we'll have to wait & see.
Something new to look forward to.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Esh:
[B]
This month's Keyboard on p14 under their "rumors" section is hinting that Yamaha is about to buy another "European software powerhouse" which could "consolidate the market even further". They go on to hint that Yamaha is about to "get it's software act together in a very big way" and that laptop musicians made suddenly find themselves suffering from "option overload".

Hi Starkeeper,
at the moment nothing,I've gone off on one of my tangents.
Currently I've got a bunch of gm/gs/xg fonts, that I'm totally pulling to pieces.
First part of my project will be to try and put together a drum set that works with my psr styles. I hope to use which ever one of the 2 keyboards I'm considering, as a reference, ie a bit of editing, and if neccesary sample some of the drums.

Next if the above works , I hope to put together a library of drum tracks
( midi loops) that can be used in omb styles ie start with
edited drum soundfont next collect drum style tracks in assorted genres (these will have already been edited to work with the drumfont). Idea is to be able to replace an existing drum track ( one that may not be working properly) with one that does.

Crazy idea, probably yes, but it's a project I tried to do many years back, but the software for storing & importing tracks into styles, didn't exist back then.
Nowadays it can be done in OMB, so I thought I might give it another go.
Drums have always been a pet peeve of mine. Whenever I used to convert styles from one format to another, the drums nearly always caused the biggest hassle. Most other instruments were fairly easily tweaked to sound good. Maybe it's just me that has drum problems , come to think of it, you don't see that many female drummers Haa Haa.

Actually I'll probably get my font all fixed up the way I want , and Yammi will bring out the perfect softsynth for us. haa hha ( I wish)

How are you going with your software arranger setup ? have you got it all up & running?? I ended up with an audigy for my laptop for fonts as well as my software setup.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Starkeeper:
[B]Rikki, What are you using now for your accompaniment voices?

I wanted to show you guys this if you haven't seen it already. This is the Infinty Music Systems X1 ... a heavy 88-note custom controller that can be purchased with a computer inside ala the Open Labs Neko, or as a do-it-yourself ATX-compatible shell. Very cool... even Neko doesn't come as an 88-note yet though I'm hopeful Open Labs will have one at NAMM. The X1 could stand a few more control options but it does have plenty of real estate for outboard devices. I'm not ready to buy one yet (I do like the flame model though) but it's a omen of things to come.

When I think of what Yamaha has at it's disposal with Steinberg alone, including Halion and VSTi's like The Grand, Virtual Guitarist, drum programs, plus V-Stand as an interface and virtual instrument rack... well, it's easy to imagine Yamaha coming out with an obvious VST keyboard. That's not counting whatever else they've acquired - since Kontact is becoming a standard interface then that's probably what Yamaha has it eye on. And Yamaha may be ready to answer the Korg OASYS with an open-system mega-instrument. I think something is coming.

Back to Bandstand: it makes sense that Bandstand would be a slight quality step below NI's other sample programs because they want to sell those too. Had to be a few sacrifices to accomodate fast loads over what beasts like Colossus take. But at 2 GB it still has more actual sample data than any other GM softsynth program I'm aware of. The fact that BS accepts program changes was the big factor for me... I'm getting it.

Esh, you are finding all these interesting things. It is getting very close to the viable options you and others have been talking about.

I just tried a Live - Styler Beta 9 version and that seems to get rid of distortion and/or hanging notes between it and Bandstand. I now need to convert the Yamaha Styles to GM format. What is the best way to do this:

OMB & how you do it?
Michael P. Bedesem's programs, e.g., MidiPlayer?
Cakewalk with CASMEdit?

The styles converted from other keyboards to Yamaha work fine. So it is just the Yamaha styles which need extra work, i.e., conversion to GM. Drums can be found on more than just on Channels 9 & 10, e.g., Channel 2 Cymbal Crash, etc. It would not be enough to deal with just channels 9 and 10.

In addition, I have placed an order for Garritan's Jazz & Big Band Library. I am still sitting on the fence concerning NI's Akoustic Pianos....I have many very good pianos. This leaves me looking for high (very high quality) guitars (Real Guitars?) and saxophones (Garritans JABB???). Once I have this all settled I will have a very high quality studio setup and a setup which would work well in a high class night club or book library/coffee shop setting.

After this it is waiting for an empty keyboard shell with all the right buttons and for me to install the OS plus all my favorite music software....say in 3 years???


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-25-2005).]

Rikki,
You are miles ahead of me. I am going to have to pick-up the pace. I have left that project for a while. (I get that way when I get frustrated). My plan is to try again this weekend. I want to try and use SGM180 as my lead voices, but this has to be loaded in memory, not on my soundblaster card as it may be too big.
I am quite happy with Synergi GS for accompaniment, but need lead voices. I need to find out how to put it all together on the pc using MIDI yoke, OMB, a wrapper, etc.
If i can get this to actually work then I could plug in Bandstand for my lead voices.
Starkeeper

Bandstand tutorial is now up...
http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=bandstand_us&ftu=e1c50086d6&flash=7

Esh,
I had to do a double-take at your post after I saw the site offering the super duper military grade keyboard for "$9,999 monitor not included" to realise you were actually talking about Bandstand.

Sorry... I'm getting Bandstand, not an X1. I like the X1 but I think it weighs too much for live use (68 lbs). I was mostly showing it as an example of what's new and what's to come. I love the idea of a keyboard shell that we can add our own components to or change as desired. Bet we see more like it soon.

Hi Starkeeper,
I think a few of us regulars are now using
Forte Ensemble,
with livesynth pro, midiyoke etc etc . I think AJ may have even swapped over from chainer or whatever he was using?? ( I could be wrong).
Only reason I'm suggesting at looking at Forte is, that maybe we would be of more help to you?? Personally I've never bothered using any others. There is a demo. http://www.brainspawn.com/products/

I have the same problem when I try and using my Audigy, I can only load up to 140mb font in my 512mb memory, wheras using Forte , livesynth pro etc I can load a much bigger font.
Reason why I decided to edit. I can use good quality large samples for instruments that are used regularly in the styles, and just use small samples (or even leave them out for instruments that are never used.)
I haven't had too many bagpipes or dogs barking or car crash effects pop up in styles , yet these voices exist in some of the gm/gs fonts. So I figure why bother having them in my omb font , I can always add the sound back in if required.

How large a font can you load into your soundcard??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Starkeeper:
[B]

Hi Frank,
I haven't bothered with the others, mainly because OMB can do it.
I first came across psr styles with my 9000pro 3, 4 years ago. Didn't have a clue what a casm was. None of my old software sequencers worked with casm's.
Then when OMB came out I didn't have to worry about it. I was able to edit my styles in it.
One of the others may do a better job, I really don't know.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]
OMB & how you do it?
Michael P. Bedesem's programs, e.g., MidiPlayer?
Cakewalk with CASMEdit?

The styles converted from other keyboards to Yamaha work fine. So it is just the Yamaha styles which need extra work, i.e., conversion to GM. Drums can be found on more than just on Channels 9 & 10, e.g., Channel 2 Cymbal Crash, etc. It would not be enough to deal with just channels 9 and 10.

Rikki, I think I know how to do it in OMB but could you give a quick once over in point form how to convert to GM. Is it as simple as setting your target (soundcard or synth) to GM within OMB and calling up a Yamaha Style? And then if necessary change the various instruments within a drumkit?

I am still having some difficulties with Bandstand and Live - Styler. Live - Styler occasionaly just vanishes from the screen....oh, oh, oh... It is especially bad when I setup Live - Styler for VST operation with ASIO. Live - Styler is still in beta form so I will be in contact with the developer about this. Also for some reason my computer hits the 100% usage when Bandstand loads instruments. It did not do this when I first installed it. So there must be something I must have done to cause this, e.g., changing buffers and so on.

I will work at getting this to operate properly. It has the potential for a very good system.

Hey, the Bandstand tutorial page has MP3 demos... pretty cool. Interesting that there is a feature in BS that lets you hear a demo of each instrument.

Frank: just for the record, can you give us the specs again of the computer you are currently using Bandstand on?

Thanks,
Esh

BTW:

Hi Frank,
under Settings, Device Type, set to GM.

I do my edits via
Window_ Stylemaker_Track_Convert
Up pops a conversion Table. That's where you convert the xgdrums to compatible GM drums. Not all the drums need to be converted, only certain ones.
Handy to have both your Bandstand Drum Maps?? and the xg maps.
This conversion table can also correct velocities for your Bandstand drums ie if bass drums are playing too loud or too soft. You can correct it.

Also you can save your conversion table.
If you would like me to go into a bit more detail, I can, but unfortunately I'm just about to pack up for the day.

Jos I think has a GM conversion map on his site, but I prefer to do my own, his is a bit more general, or I'm way too fussy. haahaa

best wishes
Rikki

Do you have a Bandstand GM Drum Map that you could send me.

rikkisbears@hotmail.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-25-2005).]

Esh, here are my general specs:

Pentium 4, 3.0 GHz, 2GB RAM, ASUS Video
2HDs (80 GB, 7200 rpm, 8mb Cache)
Audigy 2 Platium Soundcard for Midi only
Steinberg's VSL 2020 soundcard for all Audio


Rikki, if you get a chance could you provide me a copy of your drum conversion tables. My email is:

flr@mts.net

Thank you

Hi Frank,
sorry, mine won't work. My drum conversion tables are xg. The only thing I've been using them for is to change the velocities in the drum tracks, not the instruments.
To date , I haven't had the need to change to gm.

Do you have a list of how the drums are mapped in Bandstand, or do you know if I can get a copy somewhere and download it?
I'd be happy to do the drum conversion tables for you ( can't do velocities), but I'd want to make sure that I'm mapping them correctly.
best wishes
Rikki

Rikki thanks for your offer.

I did some more testing and found when I do the conversion in OMB and use OMB to play the styles things sound reasonably ok. However, when I take that converted file over to Live - Styler things fall apart.

I would like to keep using Live - Styler and will try to do the conversions using Sonar and CASMEdit. With this setup I can go in and get rid of this 16256 & Bank 127 and load the correct drumkit from Bank 128.

I will let you know how well this works. This is much slower than your approach. I will take another look at M. Bedesem's programs (Midi Player, Midi Fix, etc.). One of the problems could be that OMB takes the additional step within to combine all the drum tracks to channel 10 for playing but saves them separately as 3 channel 10 tracks. If this is the case then Live - Styler may suffer a severe illness in the interpretation of it all. Oh well!!! I remember doing something like this many months ago with good success. I just need to find my information on this.

Just for your information M. Bedesem provides translation table from XG to GM within his help file for the Midi Player. I don't know how well this does the job. In some GM Wavetables there is only one standard drumkit. In Bandstand you get the usual 9 drumkits, I think. So there may be more than one conversion table needed.

Esh, to get my Bandstand setup working I will take a look at reducing the buffer sizes and getting rid of the convolution reverb (very hard on a computer as you noted). It may be possible to load up all your acoustic instruments (once) and from then on things would respond instantly. This would would work if you did not need any of the pads, synth stuff, birds, gunshots and so on. The answer could be staring in my face but I just can't see!!!

On those styles that I can get things to work, e.g., KN5000 converted to PSR, etc. Bandstand sounds pretty good!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-26-2005).]

I have done some more testing and find that I still am getting hanging notes between my new version of Live - Styler and Bandstand. OMB, Windows Media Player and Sonar have no problem with Bandstand and my equipment.

This could lead to overloading of my CPU, distortion and of course output which is not to kind to one's ears. I will work on this to see if I or the producer of Live - Styler can find the solution. I like the appearance and GUI of Live - Styler and would like to stay with it. Plus I know how to use it.

I will let you know of anything else I discover concerning Bandstand. As I indicated before, on those styles where everything works, Bandstand sounds very good indeed....for auto accompaniment.

Hi Frank,
are you sure it's OMB conversion that's causing your problems, and not Live Styler program not being able to cope with Bandstand.??

Unfortunately you probably would require more than 1 conversion table.
You'd need one to cope with the standard kits & the brush kit.

The really big difference between the xg mapping and gm mapping is that xg has brushes available in nearly all, if not all of their drum kits. Some of the psr styles I use, utilize brush sounds & snare drums in the same drum track.

Note GM Brush kit doesn't have snares. http://www.voidaudio.net/percussion.html#set2

One of the reasons I decided to try and put together a suitable xg mapped drum soundfont instead. Still working on it haa ha

You may not have the same problem. Really depends on the psr styles you're using.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]
One of the problems could be that OMB takes the additional step within to combine all the drum tracks to channel 10 for playing but saves them separately as 3 channel 10 tracks. If this is the case then Live - Styler may suffer a severe illness in the interpretation of it all.
In Bandstand you get the usual 9 drumkits, I think. So there may be more than one conversion table needed.

Rikki, I am fairly certain it is Live - Styler which is having a problem with Bandstand. As noted above OMB, Media Player, and Sonar work ok with Bandstand. The main problem currently is the hanging notes or midi loops. I just received an email from the developer of Live-Styler indicating that he cannot test all VSTs. This means I am out of luck with respect to using LS with Bandstand....such is life!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-26-2005).]

Rikki, just in case you need to spend some money you could buy the VSL full library for only $11,000.00. I think it measures around 500 GB or so. You would need some 200 or more computers to load it all up at the same time. Plus you might need a local area network....And possibly even a tech support department. And then you could acquire a contract to do a Hollywood movie script!!! Once you are in this league you will need to acquire a new set of friends.

Hi Frank,
you're a character. Actually i suppose if I disappear again for another 5 years making my teddy bears ( that's what happened last time I couldn't afford what I wanted), I can come back, the library will cost one tenth of the price & I'll only need one computer to run it all. WOW.

best wishes
Rikki
p.s. I like the set of friends I've already got here haahaa

I am hard at work getting to know and use Jammer Live and OMB. They seem to like NI's Bandstand a whole lot better. Loading up Kontakt with 8 large instruments and using Bandstand my computer usage sits somewhere aroung 50% and RAM around 1.2 GBs out of 2. Plus there are no midi loops or hanging notes. So when you have choices you have answers. I will proceed on my learning curve and rest in peace.

Congradulations Frank, I think you are playing the most powerful keyboard instrument known to man. 8 large Kontakt instruments plus Bandstand and your system isn't even breathing hard. My studio computer is similar to yours so I expect similar results running Bandstand and Colossus.

My laptop is a 2 Ghz/2GB RAM with a 5400RPM HD. I'm wondering if BANDSTAND could be installed to flash memory for better speed? Should be possible.

Hi Frank,
Great to hear you're getting it all sorted out. Interesting to note the computer usage.
What sort of latency ( if any) do you experience with your setup?
Wasn't really quite sure how Kontakt worked,
so have I got this sort of right??
You load your 8 lead sounds into Kontakt and Bandstand somehow gets loaded in as a whole for use with the style parts? ( a bit like the soundfonts work, the instruments get picked by program changes in the styles)
Which version of OMB do you have??
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B] Loading up Kontakt with 8 large instruments and using Bandstand my computer usage sits somewhere aroung 50% and RAM around 1.2 GBs out of 2. Plus there are no midi loops or hanging notes.

Esh, I would have some concern with a 5400rpm drive. Most developers recommend something like I have (7200rpm and 8 mb Cache). This is if you are going to use the streaming from disk feature. In addition, the samples should be on a separate hard drive from your programs and os. So you could use a Firewire 800 drive to achieve your requirements with a laptop. I am playing it safe here with my advice.

Rikki & Esh, as near as I can tell the instruments are loaded into Bandstand as needed (as per your style or midi file). It is relatively fast but not instantly as in your Soundfont Wavetables. In addition, you can create Presets which include the instruments you want loaded but I think this would only include those in the 16 tracks. Also setting the buffers for the disk streaming will determine how fast instruments load as balanced against what your hard drive can handle. So I can't see anywhere where you could load all of the Bandstand instruments into memory as you do with the soundfont wavetables.

I run my system at around 2 to 3 ms (128 samples). This is setup in your soundcard. The lower this number the harder your soundcard and cpu have to work. Anything less than 10 ms is fine.

I am using the most recent version of OMB (version 8) and Jammer Live. It would be nice if Jos Maas could improve on the GUI (function & appearance) and Soundtrek come out with more styles.

May I ask why some of you selected OMB over Live - Styler?


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-27-2005).]

Frank: I have an external Firewire 7200 RPM hard drive if needed (that's what I have Colossus loaded on). But I still think loading Bandstand onto a flash drive would be handy.

Esh, if you can do that you would be away to the races. The sounds would load instantly (very very close to it)on a flash drive....wow!!! Come to think of it I may take your advice even on my studio/home setup. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-28-2005).]

It is the simplest of things that overwhelm a frail old man.

How do keep the OMB from changing the volume levels when launching the program. While this may be good for cleaning your ears, it is not so good on your equipment and others in the room with you. Any time a program turns up the volume to the highest level is not so good.


Found the answer.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-28-2005).]

Hi Frank,
I chose OMB over Livestyler because I had problems getting Live Styler to play piano arpeggio's correctly in some of the styles. (It was one of the earlier versions.) By this stage I'd gotten used to OMB, so I didn't bother to change back. Plus I do a lot of fiddling round with style editing/creating, so it's easier to just stick with the one program, omb.

It is a real pity Soundtrek don't have a lot more styles available. I really like Jammer Live. It's so straifgt forward to use. The new version Jammer 6 allows style creation from midifiles. Haven't tried it yet. Supposedly these styles can be used in Jammer Live, but not in their entirety.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]
I am using the most recent version of OMB (version 8) and Jammer Live. It would be nice if Jos Maas could improve on the GUI (function & appearance) and Soundtrek come out with more styles.

May I ask why some of you selected OMB over Live - Styler?

Rikki, you're absolutely correct that with a few more styles Jammer Live would have it made. Some time ago I purchased all the Band & Drum Styles for Jammer Pro. These work with Jammer Live with some effort. Jammer Live sounds very good indeed with Bandstand.

I am still having trouble with OMB and the GM vs XG Standard .... there are just to many pianos playing. It is just a matter of time and I will get it. OMB does not like more than one drum kit in the GM mode (which I think is the standard) and hence does not change the drum kits in Bandstand when you move from style to style. If I use the XG Mode the drum part works but then I end up with pianos playing bass.....oh so sad. You know what I will fix this to....as he says with some fear of failure!!!

If only Live - Styler would solve the midi loops problem...or is Bandstand's problem???

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-28-2005).]

Hi Frank,
maybe Bandstand doesn't like Bank Changes
goto Stylemaker page press the "ctrls" button
(just under Time sig & tempo. top right hand side) and check the MSB & LSB. I think MSB 32 LSB 00 for GM?? Haven't worked with GM for so long I can't remember.
While you're about it, check & make sure the program changes are there also.

Maybe there's too much info flooding through.

If you like, send me one of the styles you're having a problem with, and I'll check it out for you. Maybe there's a simple solution.
Can you also let me know what note number the drums start & finish on ie c3 up to b6 whatever. I'm hoping they may have gm2 mapping same as hypercanvas?? also if you can recognize what drums they are.

pop style in a zipfolder if you do, my outlook express knocks back certain things
sjking@bigpond.net.au

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, you are right Bandstand does not accept bank changes. It adhers to the GM Standard....but it nonetheless has 9 different drum kits which I would like to access via the styles (or midi files). So if I use the Custom or XG setting in OMB the styles call up the appropriate drum kits. This leads to going thru the styles and ensuring that the correct instruments are called up for all the other parts of the style, e.g., bass calls up bass and not a piano.

Furthermore styles or midi files which change instruments on the fly would see a short break in Bandstand while it calls up the instrument requested....not so good. The answer would likely be, as Esh pointed out previously, to use a Flash Drive (much faster than a hard drive). In future computers will likely have enough RAM to handle this sort of thing with ease.

I plan on pressing ahead with Bandstand and determined to make things work.

fast hard drives for notebooks:
http://www4.tomshardware.com/storage/20051111/index.html

and if you have a desktop and cash to burn this is the solution, for up to 4 GB storage:
http://www4.tomshardware.com/storage/20050907/index.html

entire bandstand and numerus other soft setups can reside there.

trident, thanks for those links. All of this will lead to a solution to my flr2006 software based arranger system. It's just time and money!!!

Thank you

you are welcome Frank

heree is parts of the review conclusion as found in anandtech.com


".....At $90 per gigabyte of memory, you're talking about $360 just in memory costs, plus another $150 for the card itself"....."
Prices are as of July 2005


"....Those users who have one or two applications that occupy all of their time, and tend to take a while to load or work with due to constant disk access would be more than happy with the i-RAM. By far, the biggest performance improvements we saw when using the i-RAM were obviously with disk intensive operations such as file copying. If your applications or usage models involve a lot of data movement without much manipulation, then the i-RAM may very well be what you need.

At the same time, for all of the situations where the i-RAM was quite useful, there were a number where it wasn't. Multitasking performance went up, but only in one out of the three Winstone tests, and even then, it's going to be rather tough to install a large number of applications on the i-RAM due to its size limitations, so your multitasking performance benefits will be numbered......

.........In the end, the i-RAM is an interesting addition to a system, but it's usefulness will truly vary from one user to the next. With a bit more capacity, and especially for those users who happen to have a few 1GB sticks laying around, the i-RAM could be a very powerful addition to your system. Hats off to Gigabyte for making something useful, and we can't wait to see rev 2... "

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 11-29-2005).]

trident, again thank you for all your helpful information. I will be off to the computer stores this week.

Frank,
if you are going to shop for an I-RAM, look closely at the requirements. It looks complicated enough in the test.

Hi everyone,
I don't post quite often but I do read this forum very often.

Frank, I currently use my "JD 2006" live for giging. I have everything together and connected in one 76 key keyboard case. I made my own hinges that can separate. When I come to the place, I just remove the top of the case, correctly position the laptop (I had a special stand made out of plexiglass for this), plug in a FEW cables, and I'm redy to go. All that I carry around are:

1) keyboard case (with everything inside)
2) X style keyboard stand
3) Mackie SRM 450 self powered speaker
4) speaker stand (very light)
5) Small bag with all the wires, extension cords .mic etc...

Total setup time from when I step out of the car to when I'm totaly ready to play is less than 10 minutes. Of course it varies with the situation of the gig but I'm talking appoximate.

In the keyboard case are the:
Laptop: P4 1.8 Ghz 1 Gig RAM
M-audio 61 key controller keyboard
Alesis multimix 6fx
Laptop power supply
laptop custom made stand
Multi outlet power strip so that all I have to plug in is 1 plug.
Foam stuffing that comes with the case. to make everything stable.

I don't know the weight of the case but it has wheels, a big plus.

I use OMB because it seems more stable to me and live stylers auto harmony didn't work correctly.

Forte solo,
Live Synth Pro,
Convolution reverb with Lexicon 960 impulses,
Soundfonts that I gathered from the web and edited to my liking.

The system works flawlessly besides the occasional tiny hicup. Sometimes I even record the gig, including vocal, back in to the laptop. Even then it almost doesn't hicup. I feel that the very tiny unoften hicup is justified by the beautiful sound quality. I always get comliments.

Frank, Why don't you use gigastudio anymore?
I would think that this is the best solution for live gigs since it flawlessly recognizes program change messages and all the instruments can be loaded so that there is no problem (am I right with this?) with changing voices on the fly.

I'm planning to upgrade my laptop and get going with a Gigastudio system, BUT... of course I must ask the ULTIMATE athority in soft arrangers for his permission and advice!
Thank you very much Frank for all your info.
I would appreciate to hear what anyone has to say.

Jick Duck, it is certainly good to hear from you and to see that a software based arranger system can work and work well.

As you know I have used a combination of LiveSynth Pro & Soundfonts for my auto accompaniment and kontakt for my lead or melody voices. Kontakt provides for very high quality sampler (sound & effects) and moving to Bandstand would improve the overall quality of my auto accompaniment. The problem right now is to get the drums to work properly (select the correct drum kit and the correct drum instruments within each kit). I am currently working with M. Bedesem to see if we can get his Midi Player to do the job. Once this is done the conversion will be quick and easy.

Everyone already knows this, but there is no better service in the whole world of music then provided by M. Bedesem. The price of his programs is Zero Dollars and the support is free, quick and kind!!!! It just does not get any better than that.

Frank, keep us posted on your progress...

If you still have your Yamaha board, I would be curious about how Bandstand responds to the styles that are played on the arranger, not OMB. You can turn off local control and see how it reacts. This would be my immediate interest to combine arranger keyboard with external software sounds. But, work out your issues first. All the best.

oleg7, I have not had a Yamaha keyboard or any other arranger or workstation in my place for years.

I am still working with M. Bedesem to help me convert the Yamaha styles to GM format....especially the drums. Once this is done I will be away to the races. I just received my Garritan Jazz & Big Band Library and it doesn't work. It uses the modulation wheel to set the volume levels. My Roland A-37 has a joy stick which flicks back to zero volume. Hopefully I can get this resolved by using some other alternative.

I will let you know how I make out. This is getting to be to much stress for an old man.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-01-2005).]

Frank, you can get an external midi controller box that has nothing but knobs and sliders on it and assign one of the sliders to CC#1 and then control it from that. They can be bought for somewhere between about $130 and ? depending on what you get. Just Google for midi controllers and look around. I know Zzounds has an EMC-33 for around the $130 figure. Behringer also has an inexpensive one but I don't remember the model.

In the studio, there is a work-around; in whatever sequencer you use, after you start recording, move the joystick up and record a CC#1 event. In Sonar this will put a marker in the controller lane and Sonar will keep that value all the way through the song, but you have to do it for each track you record at the beginning of the track. Then later you can come back and draw in the controller curves to make the volume/timbre sound the way you want.

Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better

Tom, thanks very much for your advice. I will defintely look into this. I haven't had a lot of time to analyze my issue but if I can't find an answer within my software stuff your approach will most certainly work. In forte Ensemble the host program I use has a feature that sends out midi messages to setup your software. This may also work.

Again I really appreciate your advice.

Frank,

In OMB you can type these controllers in the presets. The presets is where you define the complete setup for a song. That is style, tempo, multivoice, volumes, wave audio intro, lyrics etc. Here you can also include some MIDI data to send initially. It is labeled sysex but controllers can also be included.
http://www.1manband.nl/tutorials2/presets.htm http://www.1manband.nl/tutorials2/sysex.htm

Jos

Jos, you just might be a life saver. I just may have to switch over to OMB like everyone else. Could you show me how to send a modulation wheel message (CC#1) set to full on (127). I would like to send this message on only those channels on which I wish to use Garritan's Jazz & Big Band Instruments. This would likely be on Channels 2, 3, and 4. If it is a small file or separate file that OMB uses could you Email it to me at:

flr@mts.net

Between Jos Maas & M. Bedesem, I just can't lose.

The only time we all lose is if Rikki buys a Tyros....Oh so sad!!!

Once I get the flr2006 software arranger system fully operational I will let you know what I think. I would say I am 95% there.

Thank you everyone for helping an old man and wish you all a very happy festive season.

Thank you
Frank L. Rosenthal


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-03-2005).]

Frank,

Modulation wheel on channel 2 maximum:

B1 01 7F

B2 01 7F for channel 3 and so on.

Jos

Jos, thanks for all your help. It is greatly appreciated.

Frank L. Rosenthal

Hi Frank,
still waiting to see how you go with Bandstand, and if you can get it to work with the styles. XG to GM no doubt can be fixed, but you mentioned some sort of a delay when program changes occurred within a style ie sound had to be loaded?? Not sure if I understood all this correctly but hopefully whatever you & Trident were discussing will fix it.
Another option may be to modify the style so that program changes don't occur between the various style parts? I always try & do that if possible.

As for the Tyros, doesn't look like I'll be getting one, can't get one here till next year, it seems I can't even get a psr3k till next year.

At the moment my options are open, but OMB will still be an intergral part of my Clavinova/omb arranger setup.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]
The only time we all lose is if Rikki buys a Tyros....Oh so sad!!!

Rikki, you are absolutely correct. If you load all the instruments up front in the style then the time required to change instruments is not an issue. You could probably load up all your acoustic instruments into memory as another alternative. Finally you could install a flash hard drive and have instant access to the instruments....I think. The only thing is whether the flash hard drive uses USB, FireWire or something like that. If it does it may still not be instant access. I haven't spend any time on this as yet. I am still trying to resolve the drum problem....especially as it relates to using the appropriate drum instruments within each kit. In addition, I note that OMB responds differently to these separate instruments as compared to Live - Styler. It could be that OMB is transmitting kick and snare drums at a lower velocity.

Now just in case you may think the old man has fallen asleep at the switch, it turns out there are a number of styles which have drums located on channel 2,8, 9 & 10. I was wondering whether I was losing my mind....the drums in my favorite styles sounded so anemic. The outcome could well be that I may have to go back to combining all the drum tracks to channel 10 utilizing StyleMaker and Sonar. This way I can see immediately which tracks contain drums plus I can adjust the velocity levels for each track to accommodate the differences between my Soundfont wavetable and Bandstand. I am not certain you can do this in OMB, i.e., combine Channels 8 & 9 into 10 plus adjust the velocity levels.

Rikki if you have the answer I would be eternally grateful given I may not have enough time here on earth to make use of all of this stuff!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-03-2005).]

Hi Frank,
bear with me as I haven't bothered to use anything but soundfonts to date, so I don't have a clue how Bandstand works.

Scenario 1. If I knew I was going to use the following instruments & tracks throughout the style
bass 32 track 11 midi 11
piano 0 track 12 midi 12
guitar25 track 13 midi 13
strings48 track 14 midi 14
I could somehow load those specific instruments in and have no delays. Probably not practical because I'd have to know precisely what instruments I'd be using in each of the styles.

Scenario 2. OK I have 128 instruments in Bandstand, but I doubt I'd even use half of that as far as styles go. So, would it be possible to load 20 to 30 of the most commonly used instruments into some sort of computer memory?? and still not have a delay if there happens to be program changes in the style parts ie
guitar 25 changes to guitar 26 when going from variation 1 to variation 2. Am I going to have a delay??

The flash drive would be interesting to see if it works.

As for drums. I doubt OMB would be transmitting Bass & Snare on a lower velocity,but I couldn't say for certain.

Frank are you certain that a number of styles which have drums located on channel 2,8, 9 & 10. The drums may well be located on TRACKS 2,8,9 & 10, but I think you may find that the midi channel is actually channel 10.
Stylemaker page
Colum " dest channel" next to track name is the midi channel no..

If your drums are sounding anemic, it's probably the velocities. I had velocity problems with the soundfonts. I found some of them were playing too loudly, especially brushes.
Remember the styles were created for a psr not Bandstand, so it's quite likely the levels ( velocities) of the individual drums won't be correct. The bass drum in Bandstand could well be recorded at a lower level than the bass drum in a psr.

You can fix this within OMB. The conversion function can change the velocities of individual drums within a style. ie if your bass drum is playing too softly you can boost the velocity of the bass drum and save it in a conversion table that can be used in other styles as well.

The function is on the Stylemaker page of OMB

Track
Convert
( locate the drum that needs to be louder or softer) I usually change the notation icon from notes to decimal as I find it easier. All you need is a drum map with the decimal numbers ie bass drum 35, bass drum 36 et etc and work off that map.
Then just put a +10 velocity against the 35 or 36 bass drum, click " in all parts" tick the track that the bass drum is in ( most likely track 10) press apply, and the bass drums throughout your style should be playing louder. You can also save it as a conversion table. Always keep a copy of your original style.
If you find you want to give this method a go, I can try & help.

You may find that a few of your drums may need velocity changes. Some made softer , some made louder, You can actually put all the changes together in a conversion table and save it. Plus you can also use the conversion table for changing xg drum mapping to gm.

It sounds complicated , but it's not really. Literally your whole style can be edited in OMB.

Do you have a large quanity that need to be converted??

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 12-04-2005).]

Hi Rikki and Frank,
I see you refer to a flash drive. I believe a USB flash drive like the ones you have in your key ring carrying data, won't be able to do the job.

trident, I think you are right in your assessment of how Bandstand would respond from a USB or Firewire device.

Rikki, wow you are way ahead of me technically on all of this music software. I have made a copy of your comments which will come in handy as I slowly but surely get everything setup.

Rikki if you have the XG to GM.con files for the following drum kits I will buy you a beer if you provided me a copy of them:

Standard Kit
Jazz Kit
Brush Kit
....the rest I can do on my own later.

My email is:
flr@mts.net

Even if you may think that you are not finished converting these drum kits it will be way good enough for me to get started.

The good thing about OMB among others it finds all the channels with drums loaded and transfers them all to channel 10....I think.

In addition, to instrument loading time problem in Bandstand revolves around the fact that styles often have more than one drum kit. OMB or any other sequencer will load all of the kits including those found on empty tracks. This would cause a noticeable hesitancy while playing such styles. Similarly, when there is a different sax or trumpet required for an ending you would experience an interruption while playing such endings. This is all fixable if you load such instruments in the introductory part of the style.

I have not tried this but I suppose you could develop an empty midi/style file in OMB or other sequencer calling for all the instruments you believe you will be using during live performance and load them before your performance. This should eliminate interruptions caused during loading of the required instruments. The best thing may still be the advice provided by trident.

Rikki thanks for all your help.

Frank L. Rosenthal


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-04-2005).]

Frank,

This empty midifile is already present in each style and is called the control changes part. You can access it in OMB by double clicking in the control data column in the stylemaker. This data is sent when a style is activated.

In original Yamaha styles all the bank/patch data is usually in the control changes part and not in the variation parts (mains, fill-ins).

So if you want to use different instruments you could put each instrument in a separate channel. In Yamaha keyboards you can only use channel 9-16. In OMB you can use all channels but of course you would reserve a few for melody.

If you need more then 16 different instruments in the style then you would need to switch bank/patch in a variation now and then. If the delay is mainly caused by the loading of the instrument font from harddisk then you can preload all instruments in the control changes part. Just place the controllers and patches for the different instrument subsequently in the control data of the same track.

Jos

Here's the start of my input information for the development of the drum kit translation table:
Note #'s
XG GM/GS

14 87
13 86
30 85
22 34
21 33
20 32
32 31
18 30
17 29
16 28
15 27

Still part of XG Standard Kit but would
need to call up GM Brush Kit to do the
following:

XG Std GM/GS Brush

25 Brush Tap 38 Brush Tap
26 Brush Swirl L 40 Brush Swirl
27 Brush Slap 39 Brush Slap
28 Brush Swirl H 40 Brush Swirl
29 Snare Roll I don't care

39 Hand Claps Stuff them somewhere!!!

XG Brush Kit GM/GS Brush Kit

31 Brush Slap2 39 Brush Slap
36 Kick Small I don't care!!!
38 Brush Slap3 39 Brush Slap
40 Brush Tap2 38 Brush Tap
41 Tom Brush1 Well?
43 Tom Brush2 "
45 Tom Brush3 "
47 Tom Brush4 "
48 Tom Brush5 "
50 Tom Brush6 "

The first part of the table I got from the Sonar Drum Manager.

Now Rikki if I built a translation or conversion table from this information would you buy me a beer??? As I noted if there are brushes used with XG Standard kits then in those styles one would need to use the GM Brush Kit. The Same would apply to the Jazz Kit. If you are into Toms then you may have to give up!!! .... At least I can't find them???

The only drum kits I plan on using would be the Standard, Jazz and Brush Kits....anything else is to noisy for an old man.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-04-2005).]

Jos, thanks for your advice. I tend to agree with your approach. I could use all 16 channels given I use a different midi port for my melody or lead instruments in kontakt.

The other consideration is the amount of memory you have to allocate for this purpose.

As an aside, I had the numbers lined up in columns when I perpared the above response concerning drum conversions. I hope you can still make out what I am saying.

Hi Frank,
I tend to think the drums that are possibly going to cause you the biggest problems are
XG
25 brush tap
26 brush swirl
27 brush tap swirl
they probably won't exist anywhere else in your gm kit except for the Brush Kit. So any style that has brushes , you're going to have to use the brush kit & hope that the style doesn't also use snares, because there's no snare drums in the GM brushkit.

I was originally going to do conversions for my Hypercanvas but in the end I opted for xg mapped drum soundfonts, so I never went ahead. What I had planned on doing was create 2 versions of the conversions for each of the drumsets
One that didn't include brushes ie Standard Kit 1 xg converted to Standard Kit 1 GM
and Standard Kit 1 XG converted to Brush Kit GM ( for styles that included ( 25,26,27 brushes)

Then do the same for the Jazz Kit, and the same for the Brush Kit . Even the XG & GM brush kits aren't the same.
ie 40 in the xg kit is a brush tap wheras in gm it's a brush swirl.

You've got 2 options as to which conversion to use , just say the original kit is tandard 1. either try both and see if the brush or the normal one is the correct conversion,
or you could check the event list before you convert, in each of the style parts and see if brushes 25,26 27 are present in which case you know to use Brush version.

Event List is on Stylemaker Page
Events ( 3rd colum from left).
Double click the event part you're editing & chhoose events. All your notes , controllers etc pop up in a list. ( This one you'll have to work out from note names not numbers)
ie 25 = c#2
26 = D2
27 = Eb2 etc

If you bring up a conversion table, you can click between ( Notation icon) notes & decimal and work out which numbers are the equiv notes.

I'll check your conversions later & get back to you. I've got to dash.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, in the end there is another alternative, abandon those styles which don't sound good or are to hard to fix, given we have thousands of other styles to pick from!!!!!

Again I appreciate all your advice. M. Bedesem is still working on Midi Player II to do these conversions. If he can then this would make for fast (batch) conversions of styles to the GM Standard.

All this is just to exciting for an old man. NI's Bandstand has all the right stuff (instruments, effects and adjustments). It is fully featured wavetable. I don't feel bad to do the work of conversion to the GM format. This will also make other wavetables available for auto accompaniment use.

It will be near impossible for me to leave kontakt and the big GBs virtual acoustic instruments. These sound just to good compared to other alternatives---for my lead or melody instruments.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-04-2005).]

It just occurred to me that there is another alternative, namely:

Leave the Styles unchanged
Use NI Bandstand for non-drum channels
Load up Soundfont XG Drum Kits in a separate VST utilizing something like LiveSynth Pro or SynthFont, etc.

This would work but you would need to know on which channels the drums are located for each to the Yamaha styles....a pain. and block those channels from going to Bandstand. Everything is possible and so is this. You might take a moderate hit in quality of the drum kits but the overall result may still be better.

Hi Frank,
how bizzare, I'd thought of the same thing ie use drum soundfonts, to save all the converting to gm, and just use bandstand for the rest of the backing instruments. Wasn't sure if you'd be happy to do that.

I'm pretty certain you'll find that the drums are on channel 10. ( or you may find some on channel 9. DON't CONFUSE TRACK No's with midi channel no's. Either way it should be fixable. The midi channel is DEST CHAN. Next to Track name. You may find 2 to 3 tracks with the same Dest Channel no. ( midi channel).


I think I read somewhere that you actually have a creative sound card. Are you able to load your drum soundfont into it??
OMB vers 8 has multiple outs. All you'd need to do is set channel 10 to to your creative card. I'm aware that maybe your set up won't allow you to use that soundcard.

I have used a mix of OMB out, consisting of usb ( Clavinova), audigy card ( for fonts) , & Forte for hypercanvas.
You may find using soundfont drums an easier solution than converting xg drums to gm.
No doubt you'll come up with a solution.

Just out of interest, can you actually convert Bandstand drums to Soundfont format using one of your conversion programs???
best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]

Yes, Frank, this was an approach I had
recommended to you quite a while ago when
discussing Forte channel filters and LiveSynth.
I didn't bring it up again, since I know
you want to use only the highest
quality sounds(including drums)available.
I have used it with reasonable success myself, but my needs for highest sound quality are more modest than yours(due to the obvious cost).
Like you say, if this lower drum sound quality is acceptable, then it is an
alternative. However, since I personally believe, the drums are the most crucial to giving an arranger as good a live sound as possible, your FLR2005 drums will not be up to par. If only Kontakt would get their act
together and have proper drum patch selection, then you will be a very happy man(flr2006?).

Hi Vquestor,
unfortunately it's drum mapping I think, that is causing the biggest hassle.
The psr styles have drums in their kits that go beyond the gm standard ie they've got brush drums in most of their kits, wheras gm only has brushes in the brush kit.
ie in a psr Standard Kit you have brushes& snaredrums wheras, in a GM Kit, you'd have to use the brush kit to get the brush sounds, but you end up losing the snares.
That's just one example of a trade off.

It would be great to be able to put together a good quality xg mapped drum soundfont.
Better still, would be if one of the softsynth companies had an xg mapped drum set.

best wishes
Rikki

I realize the differences between XG and the
limited GM kits. Since we are using PSR styles, all kits really should be XG mapped anyway.
Since you're making your own soundfonts, I commend you on the tremendous amount of work
needed to replace mediocre sounds with those of higher quality. Once you finish, I think
it will be quite rewarding.

Rikki,

As a stopgap until one of us can possibly together a good soundfont, I've used "another xg soundfont". While it isn't the ideal font, I find it's overall sounds to be at least as good and in some areas a bit better than my SY-XG50 module.

I experimented a bit with Midi-ox and remapping of some GM patches so that they would correspond to some of the better quality voices of the Motif ES. So far so good. For now I'm working on converting the GM standard over to Es patches, simply because it should make ( GM ) midifile playback sound a lot better on the ES. It should also correspond well with OMB and style play when I use OMB in the GM synth mode. It's simpler than remapping XG to ES format, but if it works well and there are no latency issues ( it appears that I'll have to actually use midiox as an inline translator ), then I'll likely remap the XG banks / patches to fit the ES as well.

AJ

I just simply give up, all of you are so far ahead of me technically I should just run on silent and let the rest of the world go by. I will take all the good stuff and call it a day.....just can't keep up!!!

With respect to using the Audigy Soundcard and placing the drums on it would partially destroy my goal....everything software....but yes that is another alternative.

I have not given up on Bandstand for all things auto accompaniment. Kontakt for all things melody. It will happen.....

Vquestor, yes you pointed out the option of using a separate VST for drums (soundfont xg). More and more companies are starting to provide all the options....GM, GM2, GS and XG with their synths and sequencers, eg., Sonar. I think even Roland has at least in the near past offered XG compatibility. Yes if companies provided customer service as it should be they would make life as easy as possible for the customer. One should not have to work at using products.

Hi Frank,
even if you didn't use the audigy, can you slot the soundfonts ( drums only) into your setup using Forte & Live Synth Pro??

Actually found out I can get Bandstand locally ( 2 hrs away, that's local nowadays, haahaa) but I'm wondering if there's anyway I could convert the drums into a soundfont , if my limited computer system won't run Bandstand for the styles. I realize one of these days I may have to get an exernal hard drive & more memory.
Is there another option for getting better drum sounds?? and using one of the conversion programs. Doesn't matter if it's xg mapped as I think I can alter it to suit.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]

With respect to using the Audigy Soundcard and placing the drums on it would partially destroy my goal....everything software....but yes that is another alternative.

Hi Vquestor,
sorry that sounded like some sort of a lecture on xg , gm. It's a bit frustrating when most of the softsynth drum sets are mapped to gm and we really do need xg drum mapping when using a psr style.

As for making up the font, one day I hope I will finish.
Maybe my problem is I can't tell what's a good drum sound & whats bad.
One thing I know, I don't like is the brush sounds in some of the fonts. Maybe it's what they sound like in reality? wheras I prefer the softer, less harsh sound in the arrangers.

Oh well, it's a challenge, which I quite enjoy.


best wishes
Rikki

Hi AJ,
I have Another XG, and it does sound quite good, especially for the size of it.
Somehow I don't think I'll end up with a psr ( either Tyros2 or psr3k) no stock here till next year. That being the case, I may try & get some of the drum samples I want for my font from my Clavinova's xg set.
Might do a bit more fiddling round with Samplit and see if I can work it out.

What I'm basically trying to do is try to match as closely as possible the xg drumset in my clav with an xg soundfont drumset. Means if I eventually end up using something like Bandstand for styles ( excluding gm drums) the only editing I'll need to do is the instruments like bass, piano etc which usually only require a bit of tweaking, wheras trying to redo all the drums in the styles is a big job, I'd prefer to only do once if at all possible. And, if I find better samples along the way, I can always keep replacing.
How are you going with your keyboard hunting.
I've been checking out Ketrons either the sd1 keyboard, or maybe even the midjay module, even though I probably wouldn't use some of the performance functions in the midijay. A module will take up less space.

Don't know much about midi ox. Sounds interesting though, I must admit I don't fully understand how you're using it.

I sometimes use the xg drums in the Clav. All I do is set Channel 10 in OMB to USB and the rest of the channels to either my audigy or to midiyoke. You must be talking about something far more complex.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]Rikki,

Hi Rikki,

Here is a description of MidiOx directly from it's creator:

MIDI-OX is a Windows 95/NT program (also Win98/Me/2000/XP). It is a 32 bit program which will not operate under earlier versions of Windows. MIDI-OX is a multi-purpose tool: it is both a diagnostic tool and a System Exclusive librarian. It can perform filtering and mapping of MIDI data streams. It displays incoming MIDI streams, and passes the data to a MIDI output driver or the MIDI Mapper. You can generate MIDI data using the computer keyboard or the built-in control panel. You can even record and log MIDI data and then convert it to a Standard MIDI File for playback by a sequencer.

What I'm trying to do really isn't any more complex than some of the other ideas that you and Frank have thought of and suggested. Actually it's kind of a simple shortcut to make things go a little quicker. What I am trying to accomplish here is to have the ability to use the ES as both the controller and sound module for OMB. When I remap style voices manually for the ES, it can sound quite good with OMB. It is however, as I'm sure you know, a ton of work to change patch and bank data for each individual style.

My particular use of MidiOx in this instance will be to take the patch data output from OMB in GM mode ( or a midi file ), introduce it into MidiOX, and have MidiOx reassign the data so that it when it sends it back out it automtically will correspond to the desired bank and patch settings on the Motif ES. In this way, I can take the 127 standard GM patches and select which voice I'd like each of them to call up on the Motif ES, and then send that data back out from MidiOx to the ES.

It will take some work to do, but once it's done, it's pretty much done. It's still looks to be much less work than changing all of the patch / bank data for each individual style I want to use.

I'd still like to build a high quality soundfont, but this will take a lot of time as well.

As far as the search for a new arranger... no new developments. I'm still leaning toward the Tyros 2 at this point. If what I want to do with OMB works out ok, ( with latency being the only real concern, the rest should definitely work ok ), then there certainly is no rush, and maybe not even a need for me to have another hardware arranger.


Cheers,

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 12-05-2005).]

Hi AJ,
I think I've got it. Good luck with it as it's going to save you a lot of time in the long run.

Doing bank changes & program changes for the styles isn't my biggest hassle.
I just call up the "ctrl's" icon on the stylemaker page, then change volumes, program changes , bank changes etc
The part that takes me the longest, is the actual mixing of the style parts ( volumes, panning etc) & picking which version of an instrument sounds the best in the style. I'm a ditherer. I finish my tweaking , play it thru, then decide it still doesn't sound right and start agaim.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]Hi Rikki,

Rikki, yes you can use another VST to handle just the drums. However, you would need to know on which channels the drums are located. They can be all over the place Channel 2, 8, 9 or 10....may be even others. I suppose you could merge all the channels into 10 but that reduces your flexibility of using the Jazz & Brush kit at the same time in any given style.

Rikki, I just took a look to see if it would be feasible to convert Bandstand's Drum kits to Soundfont. This may not be easy. The wave files are accessible but the files that tie it all together into instruments and instruments into kits is not. My guess is that it is part of the Bandstand.dll file (VST or DXi). In kontakt files often come as example.nki files. Such files could be converted. I have tried pulling these files into kontakt but get the error message that I need a newer version of kontakt. I have the newest version.....so it is likely their protection scheme.

I just downloaded the update to Bandstand and will test it tomorrow. It claims to fix some bugs, improve on the 'from disk streaming', etc. So this may improve overall performance including the loading of instruments.

I have done some preliminary checks with computer stores concerning virtual HDs. They have none in stock but would be willing to order them in for me. I will test Bandstand some more and then make up my mind.

Even with these drum headaches, it will take something more for me to even think about switching to any hardware alternatives. The software stuff simiply sounds to good!!!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-05-2005).]

Hi Frank,
are you sure that the drums are on midi channel 2 , 8 9, 10.
I think you'll find that they are track no's, not midi channels.

As for Bandstand, I'll wait & see how you go.
Retail price over here is something like $340AUD, so I don't want to dash out and buy something I may not be able to use.
I think I could actually create/edit a drum font from the wav files by replacing the
wav samples in the font. Do the drums in Bandstand sound really good?? What sort of names do the wav samples have ie do they have note numbers??

It would be great if the software update fixes your loading problem. Then at least it would be worth spending the time converting the drums from xg to gm.

Fingers crossed.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]