OK, I'm really CONFUSED & FRUSTRATED now !

I finally got thru to Yamaha and spoke to the PSR keyboard technical support rep. He informed me that though a chip upgrade replacement is now available, that the chip upgrade replacement cost (both the chip & labor) would ONLY be covered by Yamaha if the keyboard was actually broken (and that it corrects that problem). I explained to him that mine is indeed broken because it doesn't do what I thought Yamaha had originally intended: save fingering modes in registration memory and save left voice parts with the right/layer parts in Memory Reg Contents, thus not able to create custom 'voice only' registrations which include the left voice. He then 'half heartedly' agreed with me and told me to have my local repair shop contact him (Yamaha).

After contacting Yamaha, my local repair shop told me that Yamaha informed them that they (Yamaha) may possibly not cover the cost of the chip upgrade, and that, if I wanted the chip update, that I may be responsible for covering the expense myself if my PSR2000 is not actually broken. I immediately called Yamaha back to attempt to find out what's going on. They told me that ROM chips updates are not necessarily released to correct problems, but to instead, add new enhanced features. Now I'm in a big dilemma. Is Yamaha actually going to cover the cost of the chip replacement or not? I'm still waiting for an answer from them. I'll keep you posted.

In the meantime, I'd like to hear other people's thoughts & experiences on this issue.

- Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 02-06-2002).]

Allthough one cannot compare the price of a PSR2000 with that of the Wersi Abacus,
please note that Wersi has sent to their customers FREE of charge numerous update CDs for the OAS series instruments including the Abacus Keyboard,which not only update the System Software with bug fixes and addition of new features,but usually come with extra Sampled Sounds,Styles,RealDrums and TotalPresets as bonus.
OAS software is currently in version 3.30.
The whole update process takes some minutes and a reboot of the sytem.
Just to mention a different approach ...

I still haven't gotten a reply from Yamaha. Remembering the trouble and time I spent trying to have my 740 repaired, I'm not all that surprised. Now I see on another thread that Larry's response from them came with a warning not to post that response on any websites. I know for me ( and only me ), that my response in light of the recent things that Yamaha has shown me about its commitment to customer service, is to swear off Yamaha products for good, unless I see a vast turn around in the way they do business. That is a personal decision, and I can't speak for what anyone else will do, but this is the second time I've been burned by Yamaha. It won't happen again. Unfortunately, that won't cure the current OS problems with the PSR2000 I have now.

I am stuck for an answer here Scott. Maybe a consumer helpline in a newspaper or publication.. maybe airing our problems with Yamaha on this on an even more public forum would help, but Yamaha seems not to care what we say anyway, so that may not work either.

Every time I've contacted Korg with a question or comment, even if the comment was not particularly a positive one, I've gotten a prompt response. In fact, when I had my MZ2000, I got much more help from Casio, a company that for many people does not have a very good reputation for service, especially for their keyboards.

Korg AJ

Sottyee,
Hey I'm gonna let you in on something here about Yamaha and how they do the chip upgrades.. It's interesting to see this topic regarding the PSR-2000. You see, Yamaha did the same thing with their EX series workstations. When the EX-5 and EX-7 were first released they were loaded with bugs, and buyers were outraged about it. We all (including myself, because I owned the EX-7), asked about chip upgrades and we got the exact same answer that was given to you about the PSR-2000. Yamaha wanted to charge us too for the upgrades, even though they knowingly released a keyboard full of bugs. I will bet you money that Yamaha new about these bugs in the PSR-2000 before it was released. This is where the Yamaha Corp. really bites the big one. When we asked for upgrades for our EX's, Yamaha asked us what specific problems we were having with our units, and even though they knew the units were faulty they still tried to charge us for them. It took months, and months of our complaining and threats of filing suit and boycoting their company for them to finally listen. Eventually they made the upgrades free to all registered owners. I bet they're going to do the same thing with the PSR-2000.... Sounds like the EX series all over again...........

Squeak

I honestly don't know what to think. I'm more disappointed in their response to the situation than to the situation itself.
I can't change keyboards right now, even if I wanted to. But when it comes time later this year, Yamaha will be last on my list of companies with which to spend my money.
They could easily salvage this whole affair by confessing that they screwed up and dealing with it in an open and honest manner.
DonM

Anybody know a good lawyer? Do I smell a class-action suit? Yamaha would be wise to remember (learn?) the first rule of business -- the customer is always right. Especially when the company really screws the customer over. Good luck, Yamaha..... You've got the keyboards pretty down pat.....now figure out how to run a decent business.

[ Eventually they made the upgrades free to all registered owners. I bet they're going to do the same thing with the PSR-2000....

Squeak[/B][/QUOTE]

Now that you mention it. I didn't get a registration card with my keyboard. It has the limited warranty (90 days labor , 1 year parts) in the the manual, however it says record the information , and keep for your records. Do not mail. The survival kit (if purchased ) has a 2 year warranty. So I am not a registered owner.

Jerry

WOW!! I'm not at all surprised that this is now an issue with the PSR-2000..... Yammie really is messing things up with their customers. Again it was the same way with the EX series (and several other keyboards they made) Yamaha has a hard time admitting that they screwed up. I remember when I first ordered the chips to upgrade my EX-7.. I told the tech all the problems I had with the board and the tech acted as if I was an idiot and told me there's nothing wrong with my keyboard and I would not get a OS upgrade without paying for it.. The Yamaha Corp. can really be jackasses when it comes to the issue of chip upgrades.. They know the keyboards are faulty, but they don't follow up and offer the upgrades free like they should. I had a few choice words with a Yamaha tech who told me I would have to pay $140.00 just to get the upgrade. I told him why in the hell should I pay $140.00 for their mistake...?? That's really bad business if you ask me. Yamaha is always releasing these keyboards full of bugs, then have the nerve to tell us we have to pay for their mistakes..... My suggestion to all the PSR-2000 owners is this..., Do the same thing we had to do with our EX's.. RAISE ALL HELL WITH THEM! Legally Yamaha is at fault and they know this.. If the keyboards are not working as they should then Yamaha is obligated to fix the problem. It's all listed in the warranty... If you get enough people complaining about this, Yamaha will turn around and offer the free upgrades. Honestly I don't know why Yamaha still does the chips anyways.. One of the reasons they were giving us a hard time with the upgrades for our EX's was because of the price they had to pay for them.... It would have been so much more cost efficient for them to have set the PSR-2000 to be upgradable via floppy.. It worked so well with the PSR-9000, why can't they do it with the 2000? Again I think Yammie needs a complete overhaul in their company, and should start fixing these problems.. They don't realize how much of an impact forums like this one can have on their sales..........

Squeak

Here's a copy of the email I sent them today:

>>>>>>quote:

I am outraged at the news that Yamaha is not prepared to address the problems with this keyboard! The manual clearly states that the operation system is in flash memory for future updates, and now that the BUGS are starting to show up - Yamaha is turning their back on the buyers saying that the upgrades will be a ROM chip, and NOT covered by warrentee! Ther are many things that are supposed to work that DON'T and as a consumer - I want them fixed at YOUR expense...and quckly. I am a full time, professional musician and I depend on my keyboard to support my family. I can't afford to have it in the shop for weeks at a time.
The biggest problems are in the registration memory.
1) it WILL NOT remember fingering choices
2) it will not remember vocal harmony choices
3) it will not remember vocal effects settings !!
ALL important things that the registration is designed to do! Please respond and tell me how you are prepared to fix these MAJOR flaws so I can continue to enjoy your products. I belong to many discussion groups that push your products, and the new buzz on the net is NOT a positive one. visit: www.synthzone.com and look under the "general arranger discussions"
You'll see many other disatisfied Yamah owners that are getting ready to dump your products if they are not dealt with in a more professional manor.
Please excuse any typing or spelling errors - I am a musician - not a clerk.

Just had a thought everyone.. Every owner of the PSR-2000 pull out your manual and look at your warranty.. I just looked in the manual for my PSR and they ALL have this basic warranty .... and it state precisely this.." If during the first 90 days that immediately follows the purchase date, your new, Yamaha product covered by this warranty is found to have a defect in material and/or workmanship, Yamaha and /or its authorized representative will repair such defect without charge for parts or labor..." Also the warranty states the unit should be free of defects in materials and/or workmanship... Another point... If your manuals state that your keyboards are supposed to have a flash upgradable OS, and they aren't honoring this, then it's false adverstisment... Like I said guys and gals.. You have to do what we did with our workstations and get on their butts... They can ignore one of you, but they can't ignore everyone....

Squeak

My local dealer where I purched my 2000 said
he would install the chips if he could get them! But they should be replaced free under warranty, they knew it had bugs. I found something tonight! I set up a style in registered memory. Then I set the 4 OTS settings. When your playing a song, say you go from a violin OTS setting & holding the violin note you go to a guitar OTS setting the violin blairs out load on the end of the note! Sometimes going from one setting to another, it cuts out all together!
There is no doubt this board has some bugs!
Yamaha is guilty of false advertizing!
When they advertized the OS to be in
flash memory. Thats what I thought I was buying!!! Was I ever wrong!!

Had I known what I know now I would never have purchased the 2000!
I just rolled out $1100. + bucks ! for this board, don't want to start shelling out more to pay for their mistakes. I would return mine but my dealer is also an old friend. I won't do that to him!
It's a shame! Because really it's quite an amazing midrange board. with so many good features. It's a shame they won't fix their bugs. I thought they were a more understanding company than that!
What makes me mad is their whole additude in this matter! They know they've made a huge mistake, you can't do people that way.
I expect this cut their 2000 sales somewhat!
Well I'll give it a while and see! But if they don't do something about this situation
this my last Yamaha!



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[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 02-06-2002).]

Hi,

Just about to buy a PSR2000 a week ago and now i'm totally confused.

Please forgive me for these stupid questions:

1) How serious will the bugs affect a beginner?
2) Is the Vocal harmony problem a bug?
3) Do i have any other choices within the same price range?
4) Which version does not have those bugs?

Thank you all; this is really a great place.

Danny

** In IT industry, we always say "It's not a bug it's a feature." **




[This message has been edited by DannyWay (edited 02-06-2002).]

Hi Scott

I have a suggestion. If I were you I would contact the better business bureau. If the keyboard does not perform according to the advertisement and owners manual they are guilty of publishing false information about their product. What type of warranty does the keyboard have. Keep a detailed account of all of your conversations with Yamaha and the store that you purchased it from.

Keep us posted

Kmac

I really don't thinlk a beginner will be hampered by the bugs in the PSR2k, and i DO believe that eventually - the bugs will get fixed. Eventually.
The vocal harmony works great from the arranger chord section, the way it is designed to do, and I don't think you can get THIS much keyboard for THIS much money anywhere else. If you are afraid to make the purchase, that's understandable, but waiting can be tough too. I still think it's a "best buy" even with it's shortcommings.
I will, however keep bugging the company to make good on their advertised promises!

I must agree with Dave. The 2000 is a great keyboard and the "bugs" would not be significant if it weren't for the deception and attitude involved.
The Vocal Harmonizer problem only affects a couple of "gimmick" settings--Karaoke Girl and Speedy Mouse. They just happen to be particularly important to me.
None of the other keyboards beside Yamaha even offer these settings on internal harmonizers. Point is if I'd known it didn't work correctly and that it wasn't easily fixable (as it would be in Flash Rom) then I would most likely have bought a 9000 Pro, despite the weight.
I would gladly have paid more money to get the keyboard AS ADVERTISED.
DonM

Excuses, excuses! Yamaha has done this many times before. Is the PSR2000 still a good buy? I would say so, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that people have been decieved. You should get what you pay for. If Yamaha advertised, and failed to update the specs "wonder why" when they knew of the problem than this is obviously part of the marketing technique to lure costumers, a practice that they've been using for quite a while I may add! This is the same as buying a car. According to the specs the LS model you purchased comes with rain sensing wipers, then you find out you don't have it. Are you going to make excuses for the car company "Well it's just a gimmick" I probably don't need it. Of course not. WHY, because you paid for something and expect to get what you paid for. By letting Yamaha do as they please "as in the past" you are giving them more reasons not to care about the customer and treating them like chumps! You need to unite and play the game.



[This message has been edited by synthmeister (edited 02-07-2002).]

Most manufacturers rely on "road testing" before the final bugs are ironed out. Microsoft is FAMOUS for letting "end users" tell them what to do to make windows work better. It is a fact of big business that makes financial sense. It's cheaper to built it - sell it, and THEN fix it than is is to test, and re test BEFORE they even know what the market wants.
This is NOT a defense of the practice - just an honest observation of business ethics(...or the lack thereof !)
I'm confident that within a reasonable time, Yamaha will correct these anomolies and we'll all be happy for a few more days. Progress takes time, and this PSR2k is WORLDS ahead of anything I've owned in the last 10 years. My mic never sounded better than it does through this keyboard. The harmonies are not my ABSOLUTE favorite, but they are WAAAY above average.
Let's keep voicing our needs, and staying as patient as we can .... It'll get better.

Hi everyone!

I agree with Uncle Dave. Yamaha may have made a stink about sharing their files but I doubt they will ignore the bugs in the PSR2000.

If you have ever purchased a video card for your computer you will recall the drivers included NEVER work properly and you always have to go get updated ones for the card to do what was advertised. Also, some take a while before they implement what was advertised.

Yamaha has to find the best way to upgrade these machines and fix the bugs, before many more people drop off their bandwagon. I don't think they expected so many professional musicians, to purchase it to begin with. I believe it was meant for someone like me, that wanted to step-up to a mid range board and hope the neighbors don't complain.

Again, I doubt they will ignore the vast number of professionals that have purchased this board, for fear they will go elswhere. No customers no sales. I believe they read all the PSR forums.

Also, if you look on the front inside cover of the manual it states and I quote:

"SPECIFICATION SUBJECT TO CHANGE
The information contained in the manual is believed to be correct at the time of printing. However, Yamaha reserves the right to change or modify any of the specificatons without notice or obligation to update existing units"

Again thats on the inside cover of the manual and states their case pretty clearly.


-Linda

LindaFus is exactly right! She hit the nail on the head with her last paragraph where she mentioned "specification subject to change" This is where Yamaha covers their tails.... I also agree with Linda where she mentions that Yamaha may not have really anticipated professionals buying the PSR2000. I think this is the case with this keyboard. Look at the PSR-9000 and 9000 Pro, both of these keyboards are upgradable via floppy. Yamaha clearly advertises these boards as "professional" arrangers. They in no way refer to the PSR-2000 as a professional arranger.. Even though it does have professional features... I think that's why the PSR-2000's flash upgrade was eventually dropped by Yamaha. It's a marketing thing. Imagine if they adverstised the PSR-2000 as a professional arranger... For example saying it's a lighter version of the PSR-9000 and 9000 pro for half the price minus a few features. This would most likely take sales away from the VERY expensive PSR-9000 and 9000 Pro. We musicians always are looking to save money aren't we? If Yamaha advertised the PSR-2000 in this way the sales would go up and they would offer the flash upgrade for it.. Yamaha's funny in a way. Look outside the arranger department. They have a HUGE support line for their professional synths.. Take their new Motif for example.... Anyone ever see the support site for it? It's amazing! Yamaha Techs actually read and reply to the posts there. I don't think Yamaha really sees the need to invest such support for the "what they call lower end arragners, and non professional arrangers..." The only arrangers they really give good support for is the PSR9000 and 9000 Pro.. Hopefully they will change this in the future and come to realize that MANY professionals are using their lower end non professional keyboards every day. People like Uncle Dave are a good example...

Squeak

Repeating myself

"Specifications subject to change" does not exempt a company from providing the features it advertised to induce people to buy the keyboard (or other product). If it did, Yamaha could put a toaster in the PSR-2000 box and claim they just changed the specifications. Maybe the production model is going to weight a little more than the preliminary spec. sheet indicates, or maybe the processor is a little slower or faster, etc. But "SSTC" does not mean that Scott Yee should pay $140 to upgrade the operating system for a keyboard that is advertised as having a "flash upgradeable" operating system.

Furthermore, Yamaha's "case" is not summarized by this phrase--because Yamaha acknowledges they need to basically repair some units for free. But for economic reasons they do not want to fix all the keyboards that need fixing. So they have a "test": if you can articulate the problem the repair is intended to fix, you get the repair for free. If you cannot guess the problem (but are only getting a repair because others are doing it) you have to pay for it. Now this approach probably worked ok BI (before the Internet), but nowadays, it is a recipe for massive dissatisfaction.

Yamaha may be onto something. I think I will have my checks imprinted with: "Amount shown on this check subject to change without notice."

Eddie

It's "The Man" ! He's tryin' to keep us down !!!!!!

Oh how short our Memory!!!

I think Cliff states it pretty well in his post! What's this thing I keep hearing about Yamaha will replace the chips for those that need it! Thats bull! I had to put out my money,($1100.85)that took me almost 3 years to save. I am disabled an on fixed income. I feel that I deserve my board OS
upgraded for free just the same as a Pro. musician. Afterall I didn't intentionally buy a KB with bugs, as I'm sure Yamaha did't intend to sell me one with bugs! I will probably be landed on for this posting!

I think was great! What Yamaha did for Rynn!
It's brings much praise from this forum for what they did!
What touches my heart in this matter is how Uncle Dave lead the way and so many joined in to help in this matter! All of you on this
forum I've come to know an care about thru your postings.

I maybe 100% wrong! I'm very sorry if I offend anyone!
But this one act of giving this young man
one 740 KB at factory price has changed the whole additude of this forum!


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[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 02-13-2002).]

Nobby,
I have two (well, one now) Yamaha keyboards, a Yamaha clarinet and a Yamah flute. I think this comany has the best product on the market for the money. I'm sure the bugs will be fixed - remember, this is a new piece, and needed to be field tested. (by US, of course)It's no different in any other phase of computer technology - the end user dictates how the products need to be upgraded, and the company follows up with the corrections after enough reports show up.
Don't you fret - they will correct the 2000bug. Maybe this is the DREADED y2k bug that never happened two years ago !!!!!!
Y amaha
2
k (2ooo??) it's possible, huh??????

Hi Uncle Dave,
I really, truly hope your right!
But I still have a bad feeling about this!
Nobby

------------------

Well, mine is in the repair shop now with the floppy disk problem ( mechanical..seems maybe the spring gave way ). I also included my problems with the OS so that it would be documented prior to the 90 day mark, but I don't really anticipate that the upgraded OS will be installed at this time.

AJ

Nobby,

While I believe Yamaha has plastered there 'Specifications subject to change' everywhere they could to protect themselves from things of this nature. I do think that there must be some liability on there part since they made NO AMENDUM(sp) to the manual stating that there was no flash rom in the keyboard. Normally a small paper will appear in a product manual or in the box that states it does not conform to the original specs stating what had changed and even the page the change is on. I believe, Yamaha would be liable for some kind of damages to those of us who purchased the keyboards because we knew we had flashrom in the boards.

Proof of our desire to purchase because of that option is very easy to obtain. This whole forum talked about that extensively through its introduction and as each person purchased the PSR2000. Me thinks that Yamaha has gotta fix them all for free or for sure one of the folks who is angry is gonna call them legaly on it. Thats all it will take for them to fix them all. One person willing to go to bat and then everyone will do it.

While I think its noble and generous that Yamaha gave Ryan a keyboard, it doesn't change anything they have done wrong with their products at all. Two separate issues.

-Linda



[This message has been edited by LindaFus (edited 02-15-2002).]

Hi Linda,
The music store where I purchased my 2000 didn't know if he wanted to stock them this year or not. He only purchased one PSR-1000 & one PSR-2000! So I have the only 2000 he got in. Then I told him they were selling like hotcakes! Everybody is buying them! So then he tries to order more, about 4wks later I ask if he had got any in, he said he hadn't!
The other day I went to him,I ask him about
the OS upgrade chips! He knew nothing about it. I bet 90% of their dealers know nothing about it. He said he thought he would stop his order until they had them upgraded so he wouldn't have to send them back in!
He told me he could replace the chips, but there is no way he can replace those chips! They are surface mounted chips and very hard to replace! They are done by machine in the factory. When removing you have to make sure you remove all the access solder. Then you will need a very tiny DC solder iron. Even if your very good at soldering ,this won't be easy. There is so much danger of your solder bridgeing.
Also you stand a chance of over heating the chip or getting a magnetic charge on the chip. One of the reasons for useing a DC soldering iron.
I don't know where I'll have to send mine to have the OS Chips replaced!
Hope we find out soon,
Nobby

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[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 02-18-2002).]

Hi Nobby,

My local music store doesn't even carry Yamaha he only has korg and Casio. I purchased from Dan0 on this forum and had to return my board because of severe scratches and they sent me another which is fine. It also happens to have the ver 1.20 chip in it. Now that tells me if you buy one now, you may only get the updated version. Too bad they do not recall the first ones they sold and fix them.

My daughter is looking now to buy the PSR2000 and she probably will do that with Dan0 unless she chooses elswhere. She keeps coming back to play mine. Now she is hooked! No one has them around here to go out and buy you have to mail order it from someplace. Fixing it is going to be just as much a hassle.

-Linda