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#105235 - 03/22/07 02:59 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5838
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Squeak, what's the point of all this? Why have guys go out of their way to post something for you to critisize? You've made it clear that you'd never buy a tyros2, but then you'd already made that judgement long before anyone posted anything.

Personally, I like the Korg (PA1x Pro) drums much better than the Yamaha drums, but so what? Within the context of an arranger keyboard, I never expected either of them to be indistinguishable (sp) from real drums. Let's be realistic, it's a KEYBOARD, an ARRANGER KEYBOARD, an instrument primarily intended for and marketed to, home players. Sure, there are levels of quality (drums) between brands and models but I'm guessing that those subtleties are mostly lost in the average Saturday-night watering hole.....plus, it's unlikely that more than 1% of your audience is going to be drummers.

If you can sing, play, and entertain, you'll do fine with any of the major arranger boards; if you can't, the quality of the Yamaha drums isn't going to make much of a difference. JMO.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#105236 - 03/22/07 03:07 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
chas, I asked because I haven't been able to put my hands on a T2 yet. I wanted to hear any new kits on the T2, and was curious if Yamaha was moving into the direction of others with the velocity switching and addition of other nuances within the individual samples themselves
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#105237 - 03/22/07 03:07 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
Nick,
I've had my hands on just about every Yamaha semi-pro and pro arranger up to the Tyros 1. I've owned a few Yammies too. I can say from my experience (all the way up to the Tyros 1), Yamaha's drums have IMO always lacked in dynamics and in some cases realism.

I posted this topic because I "wanted" to hear the kits on the T2 since I can't find one locally. If the T2 has velocity switching then great. However Nick, keep in mind I'm also a drummer. So I'm going to be a little more picky about my personal needs and what I require from a keyboard. One thing I will not budge on is good quality drum kits, and IMO Roland has always deliverd over Yamaha in this area.

It also doesn't take a drummer to listen to a sample and tell if the nuances are there. You can clearly hear in Roland Demos those nuances are there, and the tracks are full of dynamics. IMO Yamaha's tracks are over quantized and lack the live feeling due to limited kits, over quantizing, and too much compression.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-22-2007).]


Squeak i dont know how to explain it... just go and listen to the Live Power Kits on the Tyros 2... its almost as if Yamaha put all their concentration into those 2 kits and left the other ones just fill the numbers...

almost every style on the T2 uses one of the power kits... it is a 100% differentiator to the drums u have heard on any other Yamaha Keyboard including that list of samples you heard of the other drum kits...

your still judging a board that you havent played in person and let alone havent even heard those 2 kits as yet...

i had a listen to those drum samples that Mike just posted and the dance kit was a terrible example... even i would say yeah that sounds shit house... but i know for a fact its no where near a good show case of the T2's drums sets because I have one sitting right next to me and I use it day in and day out...

i want to record something to give u an example but really u have to just sit down and have a play of a few different styles with these 2 drum kits to understand what im saying.. other Tyros 2 owners would know exactly what im talking about...

When i Jumped from the PSR 3000 to the T2 i had no idea what i was in for when i heard a style using the new live power kits...

and even how you are still picking at the fret noises etc that u hear with the Super Articulation Guitars and how there "not supposed to be there"... i remember how soo many ppl flipped when i posted my rendition of Cavatina that i recorded in realtime using that SA Concert Guitar voice... I am more than happy to post it again if you need to be re-hashed... that sound is a superb quality that no other board has even touched on yet... u would be the only guitarist i have heard who has picked on that voice... every other person who has had a life long experience of classical guitar playing have dropped their jaws when they hear it...

for those people who think im starting a mine is better then yours. go and jump!

look at the reason why this thread has been started.. its been started by someone who we all know hates Yamaha who wants to hear Yamaha drum samples so he can be extremely pedantic and spot the in perfections.

All I am doing is defending the Tyros 2 keyboard because it is being judged by a person who has never even physically touched one...
_________________________
Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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#105238 - 03/22/07 03:18 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
First of all Nick I don't HATE Yamaha. I've owned them. I live in West By God Virginia man! If there was a freakin store IN MY WHOLE STATE that I could go to and demo a T2 I never would have posted this damn topic to begin with. So many people here say go play the board yourself, but I'm not getting in my car and making a 6-8 trip just to try out a keyboard. People in my position have to rely on users on forums such as this who own boards that are not within reach of some people to demo.

As far as your comp using an SA voice, great job man. If guitar players like it then Kudos to you. I'll say this. If you play a standard D and move to a G using the SA voices and hear string noise. Guess what WRONG!! The guitarists hand does not move up or down the strings (or neck) to transistion from D-G with their hand in the standard playing position. Watch a guitar or player or better yet "try one yourself". Basic chords such as D, G, E, B, C, A to name a few are played with the hand in the standard playing position. All those chords are transistioned without string noise because your hand doesn't move. Just your fingers move, if your hand does slighly move it's not enough to even create string noise. If I ever watched a guitar player playing these standard and basic chords full of string noise I'd ask a few questions.

Just because I like Roland Nick doesn't mean I like everything about them.. There are some things I'd like to lay into Roland about. I don't have a problem with Yammie guitar. Honestly and I've said it before I think YAMAHA has better guitars than Roland (did I knock you out of your seat there?), but it's not to say Roland's are bad either. However, if you're gonna add nuances at least make them CORRECT. Then people defend it by saying "ahhhh the audience doesn't know any better". I've heard that statement time and time again. How ignorant and arrogant can be musican be to make a statement like that???? To assume your audience doesn't know any better.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-22-2007).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#105239 - 03/22/07 03:35 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
First of all Nick I don't HATE Yamaha. I've owned them. I live in West By God Virginia man! If there was a freakin store IN MY WHOLE STATE that I could go to and demo a T2 I never would have posted this damn topic to begin with. So many people here say go play the board yourself, but I'm not getting in my car and making a 6-8 trip just to try out a keyboard. People in my position have to rely on users on forums such as this who own boards that are not within reach of some people to demo.

As far as your comp using an SA voice, great job man. If guitar players like it then Kudos to you. I'll say this. If you play a standard D and move to a G using the SA voices and hear string noise. Guess what WRONG!! The guitarists hand does not move up or down the strings (or neck) to transistion from D-G with their hand in the standard playing position. Watch a guitar or player or better yet "try one yourself".

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-22-2007).]


ok honestly i don't know how it works, maybe someone can explain it better, but that fret slide inst always there...and man.. its NOT THAT BAD.

I would just love to hear your feedback if the G70 had the SA concert Guitar... i highly believe it would be quite the opposite to what we are hearing now...
_________________________
Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Yamaha Motif XS6 / Logic Pro X

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#105240 - 03/22/07 04:05 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
spalding4 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 113
Loc: england
cant we just leave the arguments out of even one post ???? This is one of the few posts on this "arranger forum" that is actually about an arranger !

For me i love the real drum kits from wersi, i love the VST kits that were posted and i enjoyed the yamaha kits.However none of them sound any good unless they are within a style for me. I am not a drummer so listening to pure drums is not significant to how i would use them.

Until some one posts these kits within a style as ALL OF US WOULD NORMALLY USE THEM then this is just heat and very little light.

Please post a style using "real drums" from Roland or a vst kit and then a similar or ideally the same style using the yamaha kit becuase when i play an instrument such as an arranger i am listening to the effect of the combined instruments and not any one sound unless that sound is so out of place that it draws my attention to it.

This is an interesting thread to me. Please gents can we just stick to the subject and not get all bent outta shape by carrying on the personal stuff that is seriously wrecking this forum.

Pretty pretty please ???????

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#105241 - 03/22/07 04:16 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Spalding I agree. My post wasn't to knock the T2. I honestly wanted to hear the drum because presently I can't get to this keyboard to try out myself.

I just want to point out to others that there ARE things I like about Yamaha. Just because I use Roland doesn't mean there aren't things I like about Yamaha. First I think the PSR's Tyros series too has AMAZING orchestral voices. I think Yamaha's gutars are also really really good. I actually like their raw samples over Roland. It's just the use of nuances that got me. Roland compensates with the "guitar mode", and also I'm not the ONLY one who spoke of the SA guitars.... Have you noticed the changes with the Expanded SA voice on the Motif XS? Those nuances are now "more user controllable". If I'm playing the guitar voice on a keyboard I don't want the keyboard telling me where the nuances are... Shit that's my job

All seriousnes though Nick, rock out your T2 man.... If she gives you wood in the morning, then hey you're meant for eachother. Me I get my thrills from Roland, but again it doesn't mean I hate Yamaha.

Anyways lets get back on subject here as Spalding suggested. We do (me included) too often get off topic and have our little spats.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-22-2007).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#105242 - 03/22/07 06:08 AM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5838
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Well I agree with Spalding too, up to a point. If you're going to yell FIRE every time you think you smell a little smoke, then this is going to be the most boring board on the planet. I believe a little collegial polity is always in order, but there has to be space to question and disagree without the instant weeping and moaning and knashing of teeth about the board going to hell in a handbasket. If a person can't express an opinion without it being immediately labeled a "pissing contest" or a "mine is better than yours" or "fighting", then what's the point? Although the true "fights" are annoying, what's equally or more annoying is all this self-righteous indignation about imagined breeches of decorum. It's like someone sitting around in a group just waiting for someone to fart so they can point it out to the rest of the group.

We can all practice kindness and respect for one another but let's leave moderating to the moderator. JMO.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#105243 - 03/22/07 02:45 PM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
Spalding1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 236
Loc: birmingham,england
I am not trying to be a moderator. Thats an impossible job especially here . I am just trying to get back to the good stuff. those of you that like the odd spat can go in the "bar " and cuss and fight to your hearts content.You wont find me in there as i am teetotal !

The talk about the arranger instrument and how it sounds is what the arranger forum is for and thats why i am still here on the forum.

If the detail in the drum samples is lost in the mix with other instruments or if the drumming style is played well enough to hide the fact that the raw sample does not have enough room ambience or sympathetic resonance of the other instruments then this discussion is flawed. Thats why i would like to hear what squeak is talking about but within an arranger style. I heard peter baartman play the T2 and i have to be honet with you, the sound coming from the instrument as a whole nearly sold me. I had to catch myself from reaching for my credit card ! I am saying that within the mix i did not notice a deficiency with the drums sufficient to make me notice .

I know some people are shelling out big money for vst sounds to play within their arranger like the mediastation ( i am not commenting specifically on this instrument ) but when you hear the parts mixed together it does not always and in fact much of the time does not sound as good as the well programmed less technically advanced lower end home keyboards that get denigrated so often.

So please can someone post a file using the best drums they can find either VST , Roland etc and then a comparrison with a bog standard T2 please.
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dont quit.......period

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#105244 - 03/22/07 03:35 PM Re: Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Is this post about ARRANGER drums, or just drums in general?

It's kind of unfair to start comparing ANY ROM arranger drums to the cream of VST or sampler kits. BFD, DFH2, Scarbee Imperial, all of these are capable of blowing ANY arranger out of the water, including Roland's.....

What you CAN'T do with them is go out and gig (at least not without a boatload of work!) with an arranger. So before we muddy the waters, let's decide what we want to do with these drums....

If you are home based, or doing session work, the GIGA and VST streaming libraries will usually be the best choice. If you are arranger ONLY, it depends on what you want to sound like. In your face live drums seem to be more of Roland's forte, but you CAN get good results with Yamaha's (as I said earlier, someone posted some T2 stuff with the compressor off and pumped up in the mix - THEY sounded much better than Yamaha's general mix 'philosophy'), but you are going to have to work for it.

Given how few even want to spend ANY time re-tweaking all their styles and SMFs to account for the vagaries in newer, better (but less 'standardized') drumkits, you are better off making your decision on the 'factory' sound.

For me, as I primarily play my G70 with at least a guitarist, and often more, I need that 'live' sound to keep the drums from getting run over by enthusiastic playing! But if you are a OMB, and have rigid control over lead sounds (rare, from user tune postings), you can survive the 'background' drum approach Yamaha take.....

Just stop over-compressing the arranger's final mix. WAY too many people overusing the Master EQ and compressor... You want to sound 'live', you've got to cherish those dynamics!

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