Tryos 2 drum kits, can someone please post examples?

Could someone or "anyone" who owns a Tyros 2.., please post something I would "really" like to hear. Demoing a T2 in my area will never happen. I have a better chance of being elected President of the USA than I do finding a T2 locally.

I would love to hear the "drum kits" from the Tyros 2 (drum kits only as well). We've all expressed our opinions on what makes a GREAT sounding style in the past. IMO what makes or breaks a style is the drums and bass. I've always said that if there is one thing that's a DEAD GIVE-A-WAY that a song was played on an arranger keyboard using a style.., it was because of the drum and bass tracks.

Some of us like Roland, some like Yammie, Ketron, Korg, ect. However, many of us here also play "other instruments". I've been playing the keys since I was 5 years old, but I'm also a guitar player and a drummer. Which is probably why I've been so hard on Yammie over the years

We all have different reasons that draw us to our particular brand of keyboard. What draws me to a Roland is the "Drums". It's my years as a drummer which is why I truely appreciate the work that goes into the drum kits on a Roland keyboard. Roland's drum kits are just plain awesome. The reason is, Roland kits include tons of "multi-sampled and velocity switched" drum sounds. They also include other things that drummers can appreciate like "ghost notes". There's also "natural effects" you get from a drum kit. For example: On a real acoustic drum kit, when you hit the bass drum and the toms you're going to get "snare buzz". This is due to the sound waves vibrating the "mesh" under the snare drum. Roland includes this type of natural effect within their samples, and have been doing this for a while. Plus having the multi-sampled kits, and the use of natural effects, Roland is able to create really good drum tracks in styles that include a wide range of "dynamics".

I'm willing to post examples of my Roland's drum kits to show why "I personally" chose Roland as my main board. Could someone please post demos of the Tyros 2 drum kits. I want to hear individual sounds as well as combined. Don't use the styles either. Just play the kits. If someone is willing to do this I will post examples of Roland's kits. I just want to hear these kits on the T2. Even though my Roland is a synth, the same sampling applies to other Roland keyboards.

Is someone willing to post these sounds?

Thanks,
Squeak

Why don't you create a midi file of the type of drum demo you would like then everyone can download it and play it on their respective boards and we can compare.

Hi Squeak
Interesting posting..
I made the same test with my new GM drumkits too, is really siple to create one Drums demo.
Just select ONE style and let it play only the drums track ( without press the chords)
Then in editor style you change ONLY the drumkits and start to play the same style, with the all patterns.
here you can hear some of the my new 23 GM drumkits demos: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/styles/drumsdemo.mp3

here are the all new drumkits available: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/pro-gm-drums-p-164.html?osCsid=539269cfe39a04c60b2a83d2331e813a

I'm interesting to hear the T2 drumkits too
regards

Unfortunately, a MIDI file played into a non-native kit doesn't show the kit off to its' best. Velocity levels, sample crossover points, all these change from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Probably best to just post audio examples of the T2 doing some of its' better styles, with the drums soloed.....

Life was SO much easier (but sounded worse) before they moved to vel-switched sounds and non-standard note maps (ghost notes, tom flams, etc.). It makes style translation and SMF tweaking SO much more necessary.

Perhaps a new 'standard' is needed, to define drum vel-cross points, and number of samples, etc.? Not that ANY of the majors are the least bit interested in the spirit of cooperation that brought about the GM/GS/XG revolution.

Doesn't anyone remember the bad old days of pre GM, where NOTHING moved cross-platform easily? We are rapidly heading back there......

I agree with Diki Mike. It would be pointless for me to create a midi file to be played on other boards considering the differences in the makeup of drum kits as pointed out my Diki.

I know I'm not the only one here who bangs out their drums on the keys. Plus I don't really want to hear the drums within the styles of the T2. I've always felt Yamaha's drum tracks in their styles lacked "dynamics". If the samples themselves allow dynamic playing I'd like to hear other users post those examples.

I know drum playing is hard for some here, but just to at least hear the "toms, bongos, bass drums, ect AlONE" would be great. I want to hear the individual samples themselves. If a one of the members can rip out a quick track that would be great too. As I said I'd be willing to post sample demos of my Roland's kits to show how "dynamic" Roland's drum kits are.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-16-2007).]

Hi Dikki
The GM standard came out about 8 years after Midi was introduced, (Which in itself was a minor miracle) and GM2 was launched about 10 years later, so give it another couple of years and you may find that another standard will emerge that includes drums. (Never give up on hope)
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Squeak do you intend to buy a T2 now?

Squeak..... I think that the T2 styles themselves ought to demo the drum dynamics (especially if you turn off the master compressor) to their best. At least, if they don't, Yamaha should be ashamed!

I've heard a couple of posts from last year, I think, where someone posted a few 'tweaked' T2 styles that took off the compression, and bumped the drums up in the mix a bit, and they sounded a LOT better. Still not as 'live' to my ears as the Roland V-Drums in the G70 and E80, but still a lot better.

The problem arranger manufacturers have is how to voice the styles.... Do they voice them for 'pros' who are used to the dynamics of real drummers, live onstage, or do they voice them for the home players, who mostly listen to drummers on CD's, already compressed and limited?

My ears tell me that Roland tend to go for the 'live' dynamic, and Yamaha prefer the CD sound. But either can be swapped, with enough work. It's just that most people don't want to go through that much work....!

And for players with WAY too much time on their hands, at least Yamaha include a sampler, which you could painstakingly sample a TD-10 or E80 and rectify the problem. Not that anyone is likely to bother with that much work, but at least it COULD be done! Maybe even take a selection of BFD drums or DFH2 and create your own multi-velocity kit.......

But best of luck using it live, given the appallingly slow sample load up time!

Dnj,
If I ever drop that kind of money on a pro arranger it won't be the Tyros 2 or any Yamaha arranger. I'd put my money on Roland G-70. In my opinion no other keyboard company does drums like Roland. Plus I feel the G-70's styles are more "live".

I've been wanting to hear the drum kits on the Tyros 2 because owners are saying the kits are new. I want to hear if Yamaha is catching up with the game here in terms of the drum samples themselves.

Squeak

Squeak,

For me the live acoustic drums are very good, maybe even comparable to the better kits I have with my DR8 soft drum synth. But... I'm guessong you wouldn't be very impressed with any of the electronic kits. I think that they are a step up from the older PSR series, but unless you're looking for "classic" hip hop and techno type kits ( classic = dated for me btw ), not much happening here.

I'll try to record a few for you and I'll do a yousendit post.

AJ

Thanks AJ! Could you focus on "individual" sounds within the kits? I want to hear the toms, bass drums, bongos, and snares by themselves. I would like to hear the dynamics within those samples triggered by the "user" rather than done within a style.

No worries on the electronic kits I learned a long time ago not to expect anything good in that department from Yamaha's arrangers. Still blows my mind Yammie will share the voices from the arranger line with the Motif, but won't go the other way. It would be nice to hear some of the Motif drums on a Tyros.

Here is a short sample:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%253D62119%2526CTID%253D205500,00.html#

Click on media clips and listen to #52

Eric

Eric,
I've already listened to all the demos provided in that link Demo #52 actually brings up another question. It's an A/B comparison. The second half is the T2's kit. Is that particualr kit the best of the "acoustic" kits on the T2? I still noticed that the toms were dry. That's why I want to hear these samples by themselves.

You'd be surprised how much of a difference a kit sampled in the way Roland's are will enhance a style or drum track. The thing is.., the sound from a kit shouldn't be so "PURE". There "should" be snare buzz when hitting the toms, and bass drum. Having ghost notes makes doing rolls on fills much easier. Velocity switching on the drums makes it much simpler as well. Maybe Yamaha just assumes that given it's an arranger many owners aren't going to really fiddle with the kits or be so picky considering the unit has styles.

A good example is my Zoom MRT3 drum machine. Although a very nice drum machine (which is even sampled above CD quality), the sounds are so freaking PURE that it will at times sound "too clean". That's why the Boss drum machines are so popular. They use these types of kits on the their drum machines and they're present in the Roland keyboard line. Now the E-80 is supposed to have V-drum sounds. WOW! Anyone ever play a V-kit??? They're simply mind blowing.

Call me too picky, but with all the technology out there being used by keyboard makers today, I can't for the life of me understand why Yamaha doesn't use this on their preset drum kits. Especially on a keyboard that costs over three grand... IMO they can pack all the SA, Mega, Sweet, Cool, and Live voices they want into the unit, but I'll say till the day I die "If you want a style to stand out then the core of the style (being drums/bass) must be strong". A weak kit will take the life out of any style.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-17-2007).]

There are V-Drums in the G70 and E80, and a couple of V-Kits (although labeled as 'New Pop') in the E50/60.

I too think it is wonderful to have drum samples in an arranger that have been picked by drummers, NOT keyboard players....! I don't think any arranger maker uses drummers to voice keyboard sounds, why is it they use mostly keyboard players to voice the internal drum kits!

When the V-Kits first started appearing in arrangers, I remember a bunch of arranger players going 'I can't believe that you can't get rid of the sampled ambience and bleed in the V-Kits', which always made me think 'My God, when was the last time any of these bozos actually played with a real drummer...?!'

That's what makes these things so realistic, a tiny bit of 'room' in the sample. You can still add more DSP reverb to make them bigger, but just like a real kit (impossible to record it well without getting the sound of the drum room in the overheads a little bit) there is ALWAYS some 'space' around the sound.

Unless I've GOT to sound 80's, I never use anything other than the V-Drums, and my sound has never been so realistic....

Couldn't agree more Diki!!!!! That's why I love Roland's Roland nailed it with the V-Drums, and one of the smartest things they have ever done was carry that over to their other products.

You're dead on about the lack of drummers being used to program the drum tracks too. Maybe that's why Yammies styles are so over quantized (gonna take a hit for that one I bet)..

I'll give a suggestion to anyone here wishing to create their own drum tracks. Your biggest friend "can" be the quantize, but it can also be your "worst" enemy! Quantize should be applied at the strength of 100% when doing music such as dance and techno, and other forms of electronica, but when you're doing classic and traditional styles "DO NOT" set your quantize strength to 100%.... Doing so makes the track sound too mechanical. A grid strength of 100% makes it sound like a robot is sitting at the kit

Anywho look forward to AJ's posting. I've been wanting to hear the T2's kits by themselves and broken down.

Seems nobody wants to post Tyros2 drums.

Hmmmm... Well, if anybody is interested, here is the lowly Tyros Drums.

Tyros Drums and More

Best,

Mike

PS: Playing them through a quality external sound system is recommended.

Sorry, keyboardplayer....... That's the worst style or SMF I ever heard. Absolutely ZERO dynamics on any of the drums!

Perhaps the drums sound better with a better style or SMF, but this example only goes to demonstrate squeak's point.... Talk about over-quantitized robot drums!

I would fire immediately any drummer that played like that.....! I think that more of us should get out and play with real people a bit more than we do, and maybe we'll stop being content with machines that sound like that......

And that SMF/style would sound just as bad on any other arranger, including Rolands... If the style has no internal dynamics, there's no point in having multi-velocity drum samples. Am I correct in thinking that was a T1? I've heard those before, and they sounded MUCH better than that example......

keyboardplayer,
Thanks for posting that. It's almost midnight here. I'll post my examples tomorrow morning. I'm going to show what I mean about samples that include "natural effects". I'll show how one snare drum will trigger a very nice "pop" once the velocity curve is nailed. I'll also show how the bongos switch as well.. Hell I'm almost certain one of my bongos has 3 velocity curves. I'll also show how the toms not only sound authentic with the "snare buzz", but I'll even demonstate how realistic the toms sound when you trigger the velocity curve within those. The bass drums are the same way. Geez now that I think about it.., take the Rock Kit on my Roland for example. That kit alone has 7 different bass drums, and 6 or 7 snare drums, plus a ghost note for rolls.

I'll post my examples in the morning.. Again thanks for posting your demo. Hopefully more T2 owners will post.

Squeak

Squeak,
I sent you an email with an attachment of drum samples.
I didn't realize it was 9 MB until after I sent it. Hope it don't jam up your hotmail. I used your SJ addy in your post.
Bebop

I'll tell you one thing that bugs me about the V-Kit drums, though, squeak. Although they have a really nice rim-shot at the top of the dynamics (about 120 and up, I think), you can't get that rim-shot at any other velocity, nor assign it to a note # by itself, so it can be a bear to use with drum pads, which have separate rim and skin triggers....

Oh well, nothing's perfect.....

Oh, and don't get me started about all the non-standard note#'s... Be prepared to have to do a bit of Makeup Tooling (sounds kinky, doesn't it?!) on just about every imported style and SMF, at the VERY least to correct the fact that Roland moved the pedal-closed hi-hat down an octave, and replaced it with a half-open...

And then the tom-tom flams, on note #s that used to be regular toms.... Etc., etc., etc.... (sounds like Yul Brynner!)

Oh, well... GM/GS - R.I.P. QED TTFN

Squeak,

It's done .. I started a new topic but I'll post the link here as well... http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UWTTY6HG

The first half of the MP3 is a midifile I made of individual sounds, varying velocities. I used 10 different kits, switching them as I looped the midifile and it played from end to end.

The second half of the MP3 was made in a similar manner, but was recorded with a few quick Blues / Fusion based patterns I threw together.

Maybe I should have posted a few from my vsti kits too. I tried a couple of them with the same patterns I used in the second half of this MP3 and there was no comparison, especially on the electro kits... I still like the T2 as much as ever, but for me the drums are the weak spot... Still they are more than ok to me for live play...

Regards,

AJ

i liked the drums Bluesplayer. They sounded realistic enough to me. Perhaps you should have posted the VST drums too so that individuals could tell the difference for themselves. It would also be useful topost those drums in a style to see how the liveness of the overal sound of the drums is effected within the mix.

I guess I should clarify. I do like the new acoustic ( live ) sets enough that I could use them. The velocity layering works pretty well on some of the drum sounds. I think maybe what bothers me though is that some of the individual drum sounds ( the sidestick is a great example ) have not changed much since I had my PSR530 and 740, and are very easy for me to identify, even in a mix. The average listener wouldn't know that of course.

Where I feel there is a real weakness is in the electronic / dance kits. Their counterparts on the Motif ES are ( my opinion of course ) considerably better, or at least more modern sounding. Would it have killed Yamaha to add a few of those ?

Good idea too Spalding. I'll use the same midifiles and post a few of the Vst kits.

I still think the T2 is an amazing board for what it does. It sounds very good live overall, and that's the key for me. Also, some of the instruments sound very nice to me, even against much bigger sample sets. For example I like the guitars as much as anything I have here in samples, with the possible exception I like Real Guitar a little better. That's pretty amazing to me in itself.. that an all in one board could even be close to an app that uses more samples for a couple of guitar sounds than the T2 uses for it's entire sound palette.

Ok let me load those patterns up in FL and I'll send a few VST drum kits as well.

Regards,

AJ

Okay, here is another MP3 file that I made of the Tyros Drum Kits. I tried to include every Drum Kit type of the Tyros into the file.

I think this is more of what SqueakD wanted i.e. different Kits showcasing the different sounds and nuances of each kit and also how convincing and realistic they sound.

>> Tyros Drums Take Two

The Kits in order are:
1. Standard Kit1
2. Symphony Kit (two part)
3. Live! Pop Latin Kit
4. Live! Cuban Kit
5. Live! StyStandard Kit + Percussion
6. Live! Studio Kit
7. Dance Kit
8. Analog Kit
9. Brush Kit (two part)
10. Live! Standard Drums
11. Room Kit
12. Electro Kit
13. StyFunk Kit + Percussion
14. Rock Kit
15. Hit Kit
16. Jazz Kit

Enjoy!

Best regards,
Mike

Thanks Mike. I have to be honest though. Those sounds are "not" what I would expect to find on a keyboard that cost over $3,000... With all do respect Yamaha really needs to get their heads out of their backsides on this issue.

So what if the unit has SA voices, ect. The drums are quite weak IMO. They lack any real punch. They're too "dry", and over processed. The sound has been stripped of natural effects. That really brings up more questions. If the tyros drums are "digital samples" how could they sample a kit and NOT get natural effects such as snare buzz????? That makes no sense. They would have to dismantle the kit, and sample the toms, and bass drum unattached, or the released the snare switch on the snare drum itself prior to sampling. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Plus the "rolls" showcased were extremely "mechanical". They lacked any real dynamics. Sounded like a "snare machine gun" If there are dead give-a-ways to a Yamaha drum kit, it's the rim shot, snare, and ride cymbals. If Yamaha is using drummers to program the drum styles then I'd suggest they hire some new people.

Thanks for posting Mike.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-19-2007).]

Just found this post on the Harmony Central forum regarding drum sounds and setup, and thought you might find it interesting.
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1572523


Bill

Ok.. here are some VST drums and patterns I recorded. A couple of acoustic sets and a few electronic..

I'm guessing that there aren't that many here who would care all that much about the modern drum sounds, but for those that might, check out the difference between these and the T2 ( or any arranger )
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4H9241LH

Regards,

AJ

Another VST Demo and program http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=battery3_us&ftu=257f10a5e7d0b0b

The thing about electronic drum samples is..... that tastes change, constantly. What is the hip and happening drum sound this year (or month!) is passe by next year (or month).

For arranger manufacturers, this leaves them with a big problem. Firstly, their research shows that these products are mostly bought by people with VERY little interest in electronic music. Secondly, what little they DO want to play is much older, by now 'classic' dance hit styles. So what are these poor people to do? Load their new arranger up with banging beats and phresh sounds that only a fraction of their customers actually want, or make it into a 'greatest hits' collection of sounds that has little chance of sounding contemporary (or whatever is contemporary when they release the model. not two years later during it's product life!).

No... The REAL problem comes about because, not only do they saddle you with a sampler that is too slow to load for most practical purposes, but they completely hobble it by making it close to impossible (or definitely more work than anybody would want to do) to import drum kits from Akai format, the de facto standard for sample migration.

Most other samplers, up to and including the samplers in Korg arrangers (not to mention the über-expensive software/hybrids like MS and Wersi) can read the Akai format. Most workstations can read Akai. Most Software samplers read Akai..... Why not Yamaha?

A WORKING sampler solves ALL your problems. Banging beats for the dance crowd (and replaceable when they go out of fashion), better pipe organs for the church and theater organ crowd, darker pianos for the classical and jazz fans..... etc., etc..

But do you bitch at Yamaha constantly to fix this awful problem....? There's little chance it will be addressed if you don't complain, publicly. If Yamaha don't think that hardly anyone actually USES the sampler much, they don't have much incentive to improve it on the next Tyros. And, to be honest, if you are not complaining about the sampler, and it's closed, proprietary system and glacial save and load times, well, you probably AREN'T using it, are you?

Maybe Yamaha have a different policy, but the Roland community has gotten a LOT of OS changes, new features, re-designed old ones, and given a LOT of user input as to what we would like to see on the NEXT G-series. Maybe Yamaha users think that Yamaha don't care for this input, or that it is futile to try, given past unresponsiveness, but trust me, if you DON'T voice your complaints, you have ZERO chance of getting what you want.

So speak up about the T2 sampler. Wouldn't it be nice if was actually of any real use...?

Squeek how u going mate its been a while???

seriously i reccon you are looking into it wayyy too much... every person who i have met who have heard me play the T2 live (and im talking musicians who have been in the game for over 30-40 years)always comment on how good and real those drums sound...

in a live performance no one will ever notice those aspects that you have picked up on..

Seriously you have had someone sent you samples to play in the silence of your studio, you have probably played them over and over, paused, rewind etc etc to find the in perfections...

its a different sound to Roland/Korg/Ketorn everyone must agree on that... but still a great sound that no Yamaha owners worry about... i still think you need to sit down and play one for your self (not using the Tyros speakers)and not an MP3 or WAV file on your PC...

I still also think Roland and Korg need to sack their team who design their acoustic guitar sounds.. they are nothing near the quality of the Yamaha Mega nylon/steel guitars... and in my opinion acoustic guitars are one of the most important components of a backing arrangement. about 99% of songs have an acoustic guitar or electric guitar strumming somewhere in the background...

then again Roland/Korg guitars are in no way shocking or terrible, they are in fact very much up there in realism but if u wanna be picky and compare, they are years behind Yamaha.

People can call me picky if they want, but you know it takes a drummer to pick out those things at times. When I hear styles, I personally listen for the "little things" such as the nuances within the drum track. I can easily tell if snare buzz, or other nuances are inside a drum track when hearing a style. That's also why I raised so much cane about the Yamaha SA guitars. Sure the raw sample itself is beautiful and the volocity switching is also done very well, but the "string slide" noise is wrong. Again it also takes a guitar player to pick that out.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-21-2007).]

I get what your saying but the other thing you have to keep in mind is that your not listening to a live Drummer...

your listening to a performance done in realtime from an electronic keyboard...

Keep in mind Nick that it's those "nuances" such as velocity switching that make a drum track sound live and like a REAL drummer. That's why Roland's drum tracks are so much more dynamic, and so "live". It's not only the drum kits themselves, but the people who program the styles.

Diki,

None of the boards I've had that had sampling capabilities were particularly user friendly for me, vs using a dedicated sampling unit or a vst plug-in. This includes the PA80, Motif "Classic" and Motif ES, and the Tyros. I tried using the sampling functions in each one of these and always walked away frustrated. My experience with the plug in boards in the Motif's ( and for a brief time the PSR9000 ) aren't much better. Though they both have some wicked great sounds ( I have the VL and AN boards ), they don't mesh particularly well with the hardware, and in the case of the AN board, the editing capabilities are extremely limited without using external software. I find this to be very dissatisfying, as the Mo ES itself has adjustable knobs and sliders.. almost a must for the dedicated analog player, yet I can control very few of the plug ins' numerous parameters with them...

The T2 serves a purpose for me, hence it is still here and will likely be for a while. But.. I also like making beats and sounds up "on the fly". Unfortunately, none of my hardware boards are particularly good for this... It can be done in any of them, and the Motif ES is geared for it to a degree, but it's hardly worth the effort as opposed to the ease of doing so using an app like FL Studio and some of the soft synths I have, or just playing some of the drum patterns live, which I've been working a lot on and have been getting a little better at.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-21-2007).]

Squeak, send me the files you are listening to of the T2 drum demos. nickgalea83@optusnet.com.au

T2 definitely has velocity switching drums sounds...

Hey Squeek,
I dont know if you've already seen the T2 demo by michel V, but here it is...theres some drum stuff on here but not a lot. Sure is a nice board! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Faivpz7cjo8

I have posted them before but here they are again.
The Wersi Real Drums are Real drum kits played by a Real drummer, (Most manufactures styles use sequenced drum samples) and then looped to make the style, consequently they are really accurate, so have a listen to give you an idea of what a recording of a Real drummer sounds like.
I have posted the Wersi Real Drums purely for comparison purposes, NOT for mine is better then yours argument.
Enjoy

Bill
http://download.yousendit.com/223A7D4E10D86D23

How about the Live! Power kit1 and Live! power Kit 2???

they are the two kits that are in a complete different league over the other tyros 2 drum kits... these are the kits I am mainly referring to when I say how great the yammy drums are and how under rated they are...

Squeak until you hear these drum kits you couldn't possibly make an educated/executive opinion on the quality of the yammy drums..

Nick,
I've had my hands on just about every Yamaha semi-pro and pro arranger up to the Tyros 1. I've owned a few Yammies too. I can say from my experience (all the way up to the Tyros 1), Yamaha's drums have IMO always lacked in dynamics and in some cases realism.

I posted this topic because I "wanted" to hear the kits on the T2 since I can't find one locally. If the T2 has velocity switching then great. However Nick, keep in mind I'm also a drummer. So I'm going to be a little more picky about my personal needs and what I require from a keyboard. One thing I will not budge on is good quality drum kits, and IMO Roland has always deliverd over Yamaha in this area.

It also doesn't take a drummer to listen to a sample and tell if the nuances are there. You can clearly hear in Roland Demos those nuances are there, and the tracks are full of dynamics. IMO Yamaha's tracks are over quantized and lack the live feeling due to limited kits, over quantizing, and too much compression.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-22-2007).]

Squeak, what's the point of all this? Why have guys go out of their way to post something for you to critisize? You've made it clear that you'd never buy a tyros2, but then you'd already made that judgement long before anyone posted anything.

Personally, I like the Korg (PA1x Pro) drums much better than the Yamaha drums, but so what? Within the context of an arranger keyboard, I never expected either of them to be indistinguishable (sp) from real drums. Let's be realistic, it's a KEYBOARD, an ARRANGER KEYBOARD, an instrument primarily intended for and marketed to, home players. Sure, there are levels of quality (drums) between brands and models but I'm guessing that those subtleties are mostly lost in the average Saturday-night watering hole.....plus, it's unlikely that more than 1% of your audience is going to be drummers.

If you can sing, play, and entertain, you'll do fine with any of the major arranger boards; if you can't, the quality of the Yamaha drums isn't going to make much of a difference. JMO.

chas

chas, I asked because I haven't been able to put my hands on a T2 yet. I wanted to hear any new kits on the T2, and was curious if Yamaha was moving into the direction of others with the velocity switching and addition of other nuances within the individual samples themselves

Squeak i dont know how to explain it... just go and listen to the Live Power Kits on the Tyros 2... its almost as if Yamaha put all their concentration into those 2 kits and left the other ones just fill the numbers...

almost every style on the T2 uses one of the power kits... it is a 100% differentiator to the drums u have heard on any other Yamaha Keyboard including that list of samples you heard of the other drum kits...

your still judging a board that you havent played in person and let alone havent even heard those 2 kits as yet...

i had a listen to those drum samples that Mike just posted and the dance kit was a terrible example... even i would say yeah that sounds shit house... but i know for a fact its no where near a good show case of the T2's drums sets because I have one sitting right next to me and I use it day in and day out...

i want to record something to give u an example but really u have to just sit down and have a play of a few different styles with these 2 drum kits to understand what im saying.. other Tyros 2 owners would know exactly what im talking about...

When i Jumped from the PSR 3000 to the T2 i had no idea what i was in for when i heard a style using the new live power kits...

and even how you are still picking at the fret noises etc that u hear with the Super Articulation Guitars and how there "not supposed to be there"... i remember how soo many ppl flipped when i posted my rendition of Cavatina that i recorded in realtime using that SA Concert Guitar voice... I am more than happy to post it again if you need to be re-hashed... that sound is a superb quality that no other board has even touched on yet... u would be the only guitarist i have heard who has picked on that voice... every other person who has had a life long experience of classical guitar playing have dropped their jaws when they hear it...

for those people who think im starting a mine is better then yours. go and jump!

look at the reason why this thread has been started.. its been started by someone who we all know hates Yamaha who wants to hear Yamaha drum samples so he can be extremely pedantic and spot the in perfections.

All I am doing is defending the Tyros 2 keyboard because it is being judged by a person who has never even physically touched one...

First of all Nick I don't HATE Yamaha. I've owned them. I live in West By God Virginia man! If there was a freakin store IN MY WHOLE STATE that I could go to and demo a T2 I never would have posted this damn topic to begin with. So many people here say go play the board yourself, but I'm not getting in my car and making a 6-8 trip just to try out a keyboard. People in my position have to rely on users on forums such as this who own boards that are not within reach of some people to demo.

As far as your comp using an SA voice, great job man. If guitar players like it then Kudos to you. I'll say this. If you play a standard D and move to a G using the SA voices and hear string noise. Guess what WRONG!! The guitarists hand does not move up or down the strings (or neck) to transistion from D-G with their hand in the standard playing position. Watch a guitar or player or better yet "try one yourself". Basic chords such as D, G, E, B, C, A to name a few are played with the hand in the standard playing position. All those chords are transistioned without string noise because your hand doesn't move. Just your fingers move, if your hand does slighly move it's not enough to even create string noise. If I ever watched a guitar player playing these standard and basic chords full of string noise I'd ask a few questions.

Just because I like Roland Nick doesn't mean I like everything about them.. There are some things I'd like to lay into Roland about. I don't have a problem with Yammie guitar. Honestly and I've said it before I think YAMAHA has better guitars than Roland (did I knock you out of your seat there?), but it's not to say Roland's are bad either. However, if you're gonna add nuances at least make them CORRECT. Then people defend it by saying "ahhhh the audience doesn't know any better". I've heard that statement time and time again. How ignorant and arrogant can be musican be to make a statement like that???? To assume your audience doesn't know any better.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-22-2007).]

ok honestly i don't know how it works, maybe someone can explain it better, but that fret slide inst always there...and man.. its NOT THAT BAD.

I would just love to hear your feedback if the G70 had the SA concert Guitar... i highly believe it would be quite the opposite to what we are hearing now...

cant we just leave the arguments out of even one post ???? This is one of the few posts on this "arranger forum" that is actually about an arranger !

For me i love the real drum kits from wersi, i love the VST kits that were posted and i enjoyed the yamaha kits.However none of them sound any good unless they are within a style for me. I am not a drummer so listening to pure drums is not significant to how i would use them.

Until some one posts these kits within a style as ALL OF US WOULD NORMALLY USE THEM then this is just heat and very little light.

Please post a style using "real drums" from Roland or a vst kit and then a similar or ideally the same style using the yamaha kit becuase when i play an instrument such as an arranger i am listening to the effect of the combined instruments and not any one sound unless that sound is so out of place that it draws my attention to it.

This is an interesting thread to me. Please gents can we just stick to the subject and not get all bent outta shape by carrying on the personal stuff that is seriously wrecking this forum.

Pretty pretty please ???????

Spalding I agree. My post wasn't to knock the T2. I honestly wanted to hear the drum because presently I can't get to this keyboard to try out myself.

I just want to point out to others that there ARE things I like about Yamaha. Just because I use Roland doesn't mean there aren't things I like about Yamaha. First I think the PSR's Tyros series too has AMAZING orchestral voices. I think Yamaha's gutars are also really really good. I actually like their raw samples over Roland. It's just the use of nuances that got me. Roland compensates with the "guitar mode", and also I'm not the ONLY one who spoke of the SA guitars.... Have you noticed the changes with the Expanded SA voice on the Motif XS? Those nuances are now "more user controllable". If I'm playing the guitar voice on a keyboard I don't want the keyboard telling me where the nuances are... Shit that's my job

All seriousnes though Nick, rock out your T2 man.... If she gives you wood in the morning, then hey you're meant for eachother. Me I get my thrills from Roland, but again it doesn't mean I hate Yamaha.

Anyways lets get back on subject here as Spalding suggested. We do (me included) too often get off topic and have our little spats.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-22-2007).]

Well I agree with Spalding too, up to a point. If you're going to yell FIRE every time you think you smell a little smoke, then this is going to be the most boring board on the planet. I believe a little collegial polity is always in order, but there has to be space to question and disagree without the instant weeping and moaning and knashing of teeth about the board going to hell in a handbasket. If a person can't express an opinion without it being immediately labeled a "pissing contest" or a "mine is better than yours" or "fighting", then what's the point? Although the true "fights" are annoying, what's equally or more annoying is all this self-righteous indignation about imagined breeches of decorum. It's like someone sitting around in a group just waiting for someone to fart so they can point it out to the rest of the group.

We can all practice kindness and respect for one another but let's leave moderating to the moderator. JMO.

chas

I am not trying to be a moderator. Thats an impossible job especially here . I am just trying to get back to the good stuff. those of you that like the odd spat can go in the "bar " and cuss and fight to your hearts content.You wont find me in there as i am teetotal !

The talk about the arranger instrument and how it sounds is what the arranger forum is for and thats why i am still here on the forum.

If the detail in the drum samples is lost in the mix with other instruments or if the drumming style is played well enough to hide the fact that the raw sample does not have enough room ambience or sympathetic resonance of the other instruments then this discussion is flawed. Thats why i would like to hear what squeak is talking about but within an arranger style. I heard peter baartman play the T2 and i have to be honet with you, the sound coming from the instrument as a whole nearly sold me. I had to catch myself from reaching for my credit card ! I am saying that within the mix i did not notice a deficiency with the drums sufficient to make me notice .

I know some people are shelling out big money for vst sounds to play within their arranger like the mediastation ( i am not commenting specifically on this instrument ) but when you hear the parts mixed together it does not always and in fact much of the time does not sound as good as the well programmed less technically advanced lower end home keyboards that get denigrated so often.

So please can someone post a file using the best drums they can find either VST , Roland etc and then a comparrison with a bog standard T2 please.

Is this post about ARRANGER drums, or just drums in general?

It's kind of unfair to start comparing ANY ROM arranger drums to the cream of VST or sampler kits. BFD, DFH2, Scarbee Imperial, all of these are capable of blowing ANY arranger out of the water, including Roland's.....

What you CAN'T do with them is go out and gig (at least not without a boatload of work!) with an arranger. So before we muddy the waters, let's decide what we want to do with these drums....

If you are home based, or doing session work, the GIGA and VST streaming libraries will usually be the best choice. If you are arranger ONLY, it depends on what you want to sound like. In your face live drums seem to be more of Roland's forte, but you CAN get good results with Yamaha's (as I said earlier, someone posted some T2 stuff with the compressor off and pumped up in the mix - THEY sounded much better than Yamaha's general mix 'philosophy'), but you are going to have to work for it.

Given how few even want to spend ANY time re-tweaking all their styles and SMFs to account for the vagaries in newer, better (but less 'standardized') drumkits, you are better off making your decision on the 'factory' sound.

For me, as I primarily play my G70 with at least a guitarist, and often more, I need that 'live' sound to keep the drums from getting run over by enthusiastic playing! But if you are a OMB, and have rigid control over lead sounds (rare, from user tune postings), you can survive the 'background' drum approach Yamaha take.....

Just stop over-compressing the arranger's final mix. WAY too many people overusing the Master EQ and compressor... You want to sound 'live', you've got to cherish those dynamics!

I went the VST route too.. and it works great for me both in the studio and / or when I play with a band and I don't have to be the whole sound and provide the drums. In a band I prefer using them because I find it much easier to control that stuff in real time vs either a workstation ( or at least my workstation anyway ) or an arranger.. Also, NI B4 rocks.. so do the CS80 and Moog modules.. Absynth, Alpha, etc. None of my hardware boards have have quite anything on par with the sounds those babies can produce, nor the depth ( and ease ) of real time editing, so while it might never matter to the audience... I like it... helps makes me a happier player anyway.

But.... in a OMB situation or when playing duet without a drummer, I found using the VST stuff to be way more cumbersome work than I ever wanted to do and I also found that this in itself surely takes away from the performance itself. Lord knows I tried it and found that for me every variation I could come up with simply felt too cumbersome.

I have the T2 here because overall in a live OMB setting I still think it's simply the best option I have right now. The drums are more than adequate in this setting ( for me anyway ). It's simple to operate which means I can put more thought into actually trying to entertain, and when I turn some or all of the arranger parts off ( I like to do this a good bit ) and do "acoustic" covers, there are some very good sounds ( panel voices ) there to work with. Yep.. I know It's vain.. but I love it when someone says, "I can see that was all 'you' doing that ", and can appreciate that I can actually play keys. OTOH, it's also a blast when a good musician ( but one who doesn't understand arrangers ) asks almost in amazement how I can manage to control all of the arrangement parts and still make it all sound somewhat credible.
Of course I have to make it sound way more difficult than it really is.. lest he or she might try to do it too and wind up sounding even better at it and eventually replace me ( just kidding folks.. well maybe..lol )

To put it another way.. ( and plagiarize someone elses thoughtful work in the process ).. I find that the T2 makes a great hammer.. but not every kb playing situation is a nail. I can replace "T2" in this blatantly plagiarized statement with "VST.. Motif Es, etc" ...

Regards

AJ

i appreciate that using VST drums might be more cumbersome in practise when working live with your arranger but up till now i have never heard a comparrison to tell whether the extra effort is actually worth it in terms of the appreciable difference in sound. Thats why i ask for a comparrison demo in a style just as i would hear a T2 or korg drum set in a style. Its really difficult to make a judgement concerning he drums and velocity switching etc if i cant hear a demo. I have the Pax and it has dual velocity switching but the programming of the drums within the style is so good that compared to some of the vst kits i have heard (that have much more accurate samples with 3 and 4 layered velocity switched samples) its hard to tell the difference.I have yet to hear a vst drum kit or higher than a dual velocity switched drum kit in a style (unless i roland do this and i could not tell the difference). Queation ? Does the E80 have higher than dual velocity switched drums as i have played that instrument personally and loved the styles ,some of which are very similar in its live feel to my Pax.

Spalding,

I can probably dig out some tapes ( actually CDS ) of stuff I did live last year, because prior to getting the Tyros 2 I was using a hybrid of the PA80 and my laptop for sounds and styles, but they won't showcase my best drum kits from VST, since I used Soundfonts, Hypersonic 2 or Plugound's Drums for backing drums. I have Jamstix, DR008 and BFD, and I spent a good bit of time setting up and practicing with them in Forte, but I only needed one time to load all this stuff up and go with it ( live ) to realize it was more work than I wanted to do.

I can find some studio stuff we did with BFD and then re record it with the T2. My best kits by far are the BFD / DR008 kits. Maybe a better comparison would be to record something generic on the T2 first and then reassign the Instruments to vst.


AJ

"Maybe a better comparison would be to record something generic on the T2 first and then reassign the Instruments to vst"


Sounds like a good plan !

All of the VST drums have excellent demos on their website. Why do you need US to do it for you? Just Google BFD, or DFH2, etc..

The thing is, none of these EXTREMELY dynamic, real sounding kits are going to sound worth a damn if you play un-dynamic, over-quantized MIDI through them. ANY kit is only as good as the style played into it. Robot IN, robot OUT.....

BFD and DFH2 (plus others, I imagine) all have modes where, if they receive an identical velocity on the same note, they can alternate samples to avoid SOME of the 'machine-gun' sound, but a complete lack of dynamics (as the earlier posted style) won't sound a LOT better.

I have to agree with Diki on this one. If the original style itself lacks any dynamics I don't see how a VST is going to do much. The VST will of course give a better kit to use, but if the style itself lacks the dynamics it'll just sound exactly like the same style just with a different kit. Or am I missing something?

Squeak

Only what I didn't say in my post Squeak. The multisampled styles should have some variation in dynamics right ? Still, I am well aware of the fact that the style created midifiles may not have the desired dynamics. To overcome this I can either use the humanization functions in EZ Drummer or
FL studio, or simply slice the midifiles back into patterns and modify them inside of FL. It's a lot easier to do than it might appear, with FL's paintbrush for CC parameters function.

I won't mind doing it since I'm kinda interested myself in how it will turn out, but yes it's a bit of work so when I get to it.. well I'll get to it.

AJ

the vst demos on the site cannot be used as any form of guide as the whole demo is studio produced. It is almost impossible to duplicate a vst demo in real life once you get the product home. Thats why i want to hear them being used in a style. I am a little tired of these discussons because when we get to the crunch too many times we pull awayh from ever reaching a genuine conclusion. If the VSt or multi velocity switched drum is suposed to sound better , then its supposed to sound better, period. If its too much work to demo this then it speaks volumes to me about the usefullness of the product in arranger use.

Well, spalding....... Amen to it being too much bother. That's why squeak originally wanted to hear if the T2's drums could be made as punchy as the G70's.

It's one thing to have a great BFD drum kit on your laptop, playing away, but what does it do if, in the middle of the style, it receives a PC# for a different kit (quite a few styles change drum-kits for some reason or another). Or if you want to segue from a funk tune to a jazz tune..... How long does it take the laptop to load up a GB-sized brush kit?

There's a lot we take for granted with arrangers, particularly how EVERYTHING is available 24/7. You start going down the VST streaming sampler route, and life can get VERY complicated. And expecting a style, as dynamic as you like, to translate without some major tweaking to another. totally different kit is unrealistic. Even drummers play different kits differently!

Sample vel-xover points, response curves, degrees of hi-hat 'openness', power curves, NONE of these things have EVER been standardized. You are usually VERY lucky to get a MIDI file from one kit to play just as well on another FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER, yet alone a different one!

I, for one, think that BFD is total overkill for arranger use. It has a pretty high CPU overhead, most of which is going to streaming loads of voices (BFD streams 7.1 surround sound files) for ambience and room mikes that are of little use, live (after all, you are already playing in an ambient room!).

But, if you stream it out to a big SSL in the studio, with a channel for each drum and mike, just like a real kit, and EQ and compress it just like a real kit, only the MIDI file will give it away as fake. The sounds are PERFECT!

But the wrong tool for live, IMHO. Maybe a few more computer generations and it will be OK, but streaming this monster at low enough latencies to be useful live can tax even a beefy computer....

Hello Spalding
It is not that simple to do it yourself, I have been trying for ages to get the posted sounds of my Abacus as good as they sound at home, and fortunately with help from the members of synth zone I am getting there.
As a test, do a recording on your PA1X, post it to a download site, and then email it to yourself and compare it with the sound that you get at home, you will be amazed. (You will wonder if it is the same instrument)
This is the reason why for direct comparisons it needs to be done in a studio by a professional engineer, as then you have a level playing field.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

I hear you Abacus ! i am going to post up something soon . It was one of my new years resolutions and i wont back away from it. Just working out what equipment i need to record my music on to post.

If you are concerned about mp3 compression, just make your examples a bit smaller, and post at Yousedit, or esnips, whatever, as 16/44 .wav files.

However, the biggest thing most people have to overcome, especially if they don't record themselves a LOT, is the realization that things don't sound the same on playback, compared to how we hear it WHILE WE ARE PLAYING. The mind is an amazing machine, capable of changing your perception of reality, especially when engrossed in a particular task.

It is possible to not notice how buried the drums have become underneath your solo sound, or how drowned in reverb you might have made a registration because you tend to play VERY quietly, or a hundred other things that only playback, through a reasonably accurate speaker will reveal.

Getting used to these things, and learning to compensate for them to achieve a good balanced mix while we play, is the main reason to run tape (or hard drives) a LOT. Especially when working out registrations. Those little iKey or Zoom SD card recorders are perfect for this.

But the other end of this is also the fact that we seldom have our computers hooked up to a decent set of speakers either.... So whatever gets listened to on the web is colored by a usually crappy set of tiny speakers and sometimes a way over-cranked sub!

It's no wonder we never hear ourselves the way we want to...!