I wanted to start a new thread instead of hogging the Tyros5 thread...

Drum kits have been improving with each new model..I have noticed this with Roland for sure...

When I got the G70 the drums were better than the G1000 (I did like the G1000 drums)...mostly the editing feature on the G70 made the G1000 obsolete..

The E80 added a few more drum kits that I wished were on the G70...but overall, the G70 was better all around..(sold my E80 to DonM)

The BK series took another forward step with new drum kits..It made the BK5 a standout for me...again wishing I had the kits on my G70

When I started to use the "Studio" expansion card...several new sounds diminished my wish list from the BK series..including some of my favorite "Studio Drum Kits"...and some great basses..

I am sure the other brands are getting better too...maybe not to the degree I feel Roland has..

I always like drums and bass on Ketron 's lineup...I never liked the "old" OS on Ketron..

I found Korg 's drums to be okay, not in Roland and Ketron level..

I found Yamaha's PSR and Tyros drums to be the poorest..(the PSR2100 I couldn't wait to find a new home)

They just did not sound real or live..The Tyros (early models) were the same...The Tyros 3(short lived here)..was a disappoitment in the drums...

The Tyros 4 seemed a bit better, a few new kits....still not up to the front runners..

I think if the Tyros 5 has enough audio drum kits and some editing capabilities...they can turn some heads and be competitive..We shall see..


We did that drum kit shoot out a while ago...that showed a sub $1,000 Roland going head to head with the $3,000- $5,000 Korg and Yamaha..even the Ketron MIDI drums didn't touch the BK..

As I said in the begining they are all getting better...but since most of my hard to hear friends don't think drums make a big difference...it is all in vain..

I'm pleased for you Fran.

I'm also pleased to report that I am very content with my arranger's drums, too. They work perfectly with the instrument's sounds, as they were intended.

It's to our advantage that companies make different sounding arrangers, as that gives us each a choice in ultimately obtaining what sound we like to hear coming from our speakers.

What's even more important, is that we both were able to find what worked best for our personal needs.

Very good post.

Ian

PS...Still no BK-9? Of course, it may not be on your agenda, as you seem to favor TOTL instruments over the mid-rangers. Still it might be worth a go...I see Hammer has a nearly new one for sale at a great price.

Being limited to what the manufacture supplies is a no for me, as I want to be able to use what Drums sounds I want, and have them on-board.

Bill

Fran, I've always been a big fan of Roland's drums. Until about 8 years ago, I still had a programmable Roland drum machine that I used with my 12-string Yamaha guitar. When I sold the guitar(s) I sold the drum machine to another guitar player that did solo jobs just like I did when I first got out of the U.S. Navy. He still uses it and it sounds great.

Yamaha has recently placed a lot more emphasis on it's overall sound, and agree, the 2100 was not much, and only a small step up from the 2000. Yamaha's sounds really improved with the release of the PSR-3000, but as Deane Peters once told me, the PSR-S950 is like a 3000 on steroids. He was right on the money. There is a big difference in the overall sound.

That said, for an OMB entertainer, one like Donny Pesce, Don Mason, Eddie Shoemaker, Deane Peters, Uncle Dave Boyd, Tony Madalone, myself and a host of others, it's the well balanced, overall sound that really counts. We provide our audiences with the entire package, the full band and the singer(s). I sincerely believe that Yamaha has done an outstanding job in that regard. And, so has Roland, Audya, Korg and others with their latest arranger keyboard releases. With each new model, there's a vast improvement in overall sound quality.

Our audiences, nationwide and worldwide, are really not that much different from each other. They all want to be entertained. They want to hear the kind of music they grew up with, music they can dance to, music they can sing along with. They want it to sound as close to the original song as possible, and by and large, most MOTL and TOTL arranger keyboards can do this. Granted, to the trained ear, you can hear some subtle differences, but those subtle differences are somewhat meaningless if the entertainer/player cannot deliver the entire package to the audience in such a manner as to be entertaining.

Some arranger keyboards have louder drums, some drums sound sharper or more harsh, some are more subtle and soft, and nearly all can be tuned to meet the player's demands or preferences. I agree that drums are sometimes the centerpiece of some song selections, however, in many instances the bass is the driving instrument. Then we also need those guitars, horns, brass, etc in order to provide the entire package. Yes, the drums are important, but so is every other instrument of the arranger keyboard's overall sound quality.

As I said in another thread, if drums were the only reason I was buying an arranger keyboard, I would go back to my old Roland drum machine and 12-string guitar - sure would be a lot less gear to haul around and I'm sure my audiences would enjoy the music, but I would rather play the keyboard and sing to them - to me it's a lot more enjoyable.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary, I agree with you for the most part....but why not have the best drums we can? and the best of any bread and butter sounds, starting with bass..and piano..organ etc...

Balanced sound is important...this is mixing...but better sounds is what gives us a live feel, and this is what helps us play better (performance)...at least at our best..

I had a chance to play with a friend the other day...he uses a Yamaha RX11 drum machine and bass from a Korg xd50....the sound he has I wish I heard more from new arrangers...

Don't get me wrong...my G70 still had the edge....but some old technology gave it a run for the money..

Personally, I think the only arranger instruments available today with an actual "live" sounding drum kit and/or drum tracks, would be Ketron's Audya and, to a more limited extent, Yamaha's PSR-S950.

All the rest sound much alike, and all are very good with the difference being mainly subtle, but none sound particularly "live" compared to the two mentioned above.

Regarding what Gary said above, about the bass often being the "driving instrument", I would have to say Yamaha's mega-voice basses are the most expressive and realistic to my ears, but again, differences between other brands are subtle, and, of course, sound preference is highly subjective and personal.

Ian

Gary... you REALLY need to go play a BK-9. For starters, just as you seem to think that anyone that hasn't yet played a T5 has no right to say a damn thing against it (or make any kind of comparison), then the rest of us has probably the same right to say you cannot make a comparison or state any opinion until you have, yourself. Or is it one set of rules for you, another for us?

Personally, I have played both the S950 and the BK-9 (side by side, through the same speakers), so I feel I am in the PERFECT position to talk about it. Have you?

If your memories of that 8 year old Roland drum machine are so good, can you even IMAGINE how much better they have got in nearly a decade since? For starters, that old Roland drum machine probably had only a few drum sounds with more than one sample per sound. You MIGHT have got two on a few sounds (kick and snare, most likely) but that was about it. On only one or two kits.

Nowadays, in my BK-9, a large number of sounds have at LEAST two, many with four or more, including the entire basic kit on many kits. Drums do more than get louder as you hit them harder. They change sound. And, more than volume, this is what cues the ear into hearing dynamics. This is where the Yamaha's fall short. Not enough samples per drum sound, and programming that leaves you feeling that nothing much is going on in the drummer's position.

While you can continue to stick stubbornly to your guns, the shootout we had here some months ago clearly demonstrate you are holding a very minority position.

The truth about using the audience's approval of your act as a justification for your equipment is a bad one, Gary. We both know perfectly well that, you could play to them on your old gear, and they would love you just as much! As has been said so many times... it's the entertainer, not the gear that does the job! Using their enjoyment as some kind of evidence misses the point completely. Did they HATE you back then? Of course not.

So, at some point or another, you HAVE to admit that it simply isn't a factor in determining whether one arranger is good or bad. Put a great player and entertainer on ANY arranger, even a decades old one, that audience goes home happy. So where is that justification now? The truth is, musicians are the ONLY ones capable of detecting what is more 'realistic' when it comes to instrument sounds.

And by a considerable majority, the Yamaha drum sound came out at the bottom in our shootout.

In fact, when you think about it, what is Yamaha's inclusion of a few audio drum styles (and them touting it as SO realistic!) but an admission that what they have already as being so poor? You don't see Roland or Korg going down that road, not really NEEDING it. I guess they agree with this forum... Their drums are ALREADY very realistic.

I'm afraid I don't agree with Ian. I can put up a bunch of Roland BK-9 drum tracks that he would have a VERY hard time telling the difference between them and an Audya. Comparing them to the Yamaha audio drums is a bit harder, as they have them drenched in enough room sound to make integrating it into the overall ambiance of the style a bit awkward. It certainly makes the drums sound 'live', but it makes the rest of the style sound fake.

Fran, you REALLY need to get to see a BK-9. Those SRX kits are now in the basic ROM, along with many, many new kits. Heck, you even now have User Kits, so any sound from any kit can be combined with any other sound. So you can take the pick of the litter from each kit and create your own custom kit. Five of them, actually. No, you don't have an identical kit to the basic V-Drums kits from the G70. But that is only because they have been massively improved. Put in a G70 style, it automatically remaps to the BK-9 new kit, and the sound comes even MORE alive.

So far, I haven't had to do any major drum editing to styles and SMF's that used the G70 kits moving to the BK-9. They just sound better.

Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, Diki.

I'm going by what I've heard in official demos, and stuff posted by Henni and AJ, and yes, to my ears, the Audya is basically the "live" drum king.

But, in my case, it all matters little as I don't give drums the kind of urgent priority that some here seem to do.

That's why Yamaha's sound appeals to me...it's a balanced sound...lots of detail, yet smooth and well, refined, especially nice for recording.

I suppose if I was doing a dance gig, rather than playing and/or recording for listeners, I might want a more aggressive sound, but I can easily get that by simply turning up the drum volume, changing the drum channel's EQ and effects, or swapping in a different kit.

If you are happy with the way your Roland sounds, that's a good thing, and it's nice of you to share your enthusiasm with everyone, but we all have different tastes and varied ideas of what our own "sound" should be, so some here may not agree with you.

It doesn't mean we are too old, getting deaf, or that we can't hear the differences that appeal to you and a few others...it just means we prefer a different sound.

For me, all the way back from my old PSR-8000 to now, Yamaha has given me the overall sound I enjoy hearing, and, bottom line...that's really all that's important.

Ian

Diki, first and foremost, you've never seen anything in print that I've said about a BK9, positive or negative - period! If and when I get to play a BK9, then and only then, will I make a statement about what I hear, see and feel.

Same goes for any other piece of equipment, sound systems, mics, guitars, vocal processors, etc... So gimme a break! Just because YOU make negative claims about equipment you have only read about doesn't make you an authoritative voice on the subject.

You continue to make claims that are negative about Yamaha's arranger keyboards, and when someone posts beautiful songs they've created on a Yamaha board, the very first thing you tend to do is to try to degradate that individual claiming they are either deaf or just don't know what they are doing.

There's an old saying in this part of the world "If you're so damned smart, then why aren't you rich?" Now, when it comes to arranger keyboards, sound systems, mics, etc...,everyone on this forum and others has their preferences. In most instances, those individuals are more than willing to help others solve technical problems by posting their real-life experiences with that particular piece of gear and ways to help improve things. In your case, all I ever seem to read is how everything that is being used by anyone other than yourself is nothing more than an overpriced piece of $hit! Give it a break, Diki.

Gary

Gary, if that's all you are taking away from my posts, you aren't even bloody READING them. I guess you see something less than positive about your baby, the blood rushes to your head, and you start to pen this utter fabrication.

I don't suppose you want to acknowledge the sentence where I said I HAD played an S950 right next to my BK-9. It fits this diatribe so much better if you don't, doesn't it? The only person on this thread speaking from an utter lack of knowledge is YOU, my friend.

The claims that I make about Yamaha equipment are based on facts, direct comparison, and are reasoned by using better than 'my audience likes it' opinions. If you want to argue how YOUR opinion is so much more accurate the the majority of people who chimed in on the shootout, you are going to have to come up with better than that!

In fact, so far, I haven't heard anything that disproves what I have pointed out. Just that you like it, whether it has faults or not. Along with the excremental action, which so far only Donny and you have anything positive to say about it. The rest simply grin and bear it, as Yamaha only put decent actions on their low and mid priced WS's, NOT their mid-priced arrangers. Tellingly, Ian was gushing about the S910 action until he got a Yamaha arranger with a REAL action, and now he loves that. Let's face it, I haven't heard word ONE from Ian that he hates the T4 action and wished it had the S950 action on it instead. Which he was all over while he had an S910!

This is the Yamaha fanatic playbook... totally lose your mind about any criticism of your personal arranger, until you move on up to a better one. Then do a quiet about face.

You also find it convenient to forget the many times I have criticized my OWN arranger for some of its failings. But that is because I have NO great love of my keyboard. It is another tool, and if someone makes a criticism of it that has its basis in FACTS, I have no issue with that. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to 'defend' my poor, maligned multi-million dollar corporation when they fail to get something right.

I'm sorry that the shootout we had here didn't confirm your love of the Yamaha's drum sound. I know it can be something of a shock when something you seem to hold as self-evident fails in a public poll. But overwhelmingly, Yamaha was considered the bottom of the heap when it comes to the overall drum sound.

And sorry, but if the drum sound is bland, the only way to make it all sound so 'balanced' is to make everything else so bland too. Which was basically mine and my friend's (who owns the S950) opinion after we tried them out side by side.

Look, don't get me wrong... There is much to like about Yamaha's. Their OS is quite smooth and mature, some of the sounds are quite good, and the style selection is probably the largest in the business. If you want to pen complete fabrications about my opinion, try to read it and remember the good with the bad. But I, and TBH, the majority of people that choose another brand of arranger, and quietly, subtly, by many Yamaha owners that always post they would like to see more drum kits whenever a new model is being speculated about before its release (which, if the drum sound was that good, you wouldn't think they'd say a word, would you?), we all think the Yamaha drum sound fails to impress.

And even Yamaha themselves seem to be thinking that, or why the audio drums and them trumpeting how 'realistic' they sound?

I disagree with the solution they have decided to use to address that issue, being in favor of better kits myself, but that doesn't change the fact that they recognize the need.

Unlike you.

Now, having been a professional musician my entire life, not having come to it late after a career in other fields, I think that you bandying phrases around like 'if you are so smart, why ain't you rich?' and "reviews from people who claim to know everything there is about arranger keyboards because they slept in a Holiday Inn Express that was within 20 miles of the nearest dealer" is treading on dangerous ground...

But carry on if you want this to keep going downhill fast.