Well, several actually.

I originally got started looking for new sounds because I was unhappy with the few number of what I consider to be really good solo sounds in the Pa80. I first started looking at the VL-70m module which is $600 and also a BC3 to use with it. Then I found out about the MoRack and for another $400 it seemed like maybe a better deal. My wife got sick in may and had to have emergency surgery, so my mind was busy with other things for the summer and then the Mo ES came out and that was REALLY interesting, Particularly after watching Bert Smorenburg do his demo of it. Then I found the Michel Voncken demo on the Tyros and I really loved the styles and OTS sounds he uses, so my current problem.

What I'm wondering about is how do you find using the BC3, which I assume you are using when you say you are using a breath controller. Does it give you the ability to make realistic wind instrument sounds? Is it hard to co-ordinate it with playing keys on the board? Do you happen to know if the sounds from the plg-VL plugin board are as good as the ones in the VL-70m? How many sounds are resident in the plugin board? The VL-70m has two banks of 128 each plus 6 user slots. Also, there is a third party company called Patchman that has a replacement rom chip for the VL-70 that is killer and costs $300. They also sell packages of VL sounds on floppys so if you can load those into the board, that might be another source for good sounds for you.

My main problem is that I really WANT a Tyros, but the cost is somewhat putting me off because I'm retired, I'll be 69 in december, and don't have a lot of money and can't afford to make a mistake, thus I'll take my time and make sure it will do what I want before I go buy one, particularly since I can get a MoES6 and a TC Helicon Voiceworks module for $400 less than a Tyros. I got a quote of $1700 for the ES and the Voiceworks is $700 whereas the best I'v found for the Tyros is $2795 including the speakers, the stand, and the damper pedal.

BTW, anyone, not just AJ who has an opinion on any of this, feel free to jump in and have a say.

Thanks,
Tom



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Bigger is not always better

Tom,

The VL150 plug in was worth what it cost me along with the breathe controller ( BC 3 ), particularly when I had the Motif classic. It is a new skill to learn if you want to add a breathe controller, but it isn't necessarily that hard if you play keys well, and it certainly isn't the same level of difficulty as it would be if you were to add a wind controller ( the difference being is that the bc just emulates the breathe going in, the wind controller is set up so that you play the notes from it ) . The bc definitely does add some realism to the sound if I use it right. The hardest part was figuring out how to set the parameters up so that the bc actually controlled the breathe effect, but once I figured it out it was easy. Short of having a BC, you can set the breathe effect up via velocity, aftertouch, or the mod wheel. The mod wheel is my favorite way to go without using the bc.

I can't compare the VL150 to the VL70m because I've never had or played through one, but the VL150 does have 256 sounds built in. It takes a couple of steps to access all of them because you need to manually change banks in the Motif menu after going through the first 128 sounds ( not very hard to do though ) . I am not sure about user sounds, I'll have to check on that one, ( guessing 128 here ) but I have used the editing software to alter some of the sounds on occasion.

It does do very nice sax and horn emulations. I find the violins to be fair to poor and the guitar emulations useless because it is monophonic. ( one note poly ). You can get some pretty nasty mono synth sounds from it too ( yes it's acoustic modeling, but there are several synth parameters to work with ).

I have to tell you though, unless I'm specifically interested in using the breathe controller, I don't use the VL150 in the ES as much as I did the classic, because the ES now has the Tyros sweet voices ( loaded from disk for the most part ), and they sound great.

Good Luck on your next purchase Tom.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-20-2003).]

Tomcat for my .02 I have the BC 3 as well and as AJ says, a whole new skill to learn. I am only mildly amused with it. If you buy the Tyros you won't need it IMO.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Since you're talking about VL stuff - allow me to join you.

Well, the VL150 has a few improvements from the VL70-m. The 64 user memories on the VL70-m never worked properly, 'cause they couldn't store all the parameters. If you edited a sound on your computer and then tryed to store it in the user bank (not the 6 way memory buffer) it always ended up screwing up the sound.
The VL150 plug-in doesn't have that problem.
If you're looking for leads, Yamaha made an "analog editor" for the VL70-m. It should work for the VL150 plug-in.
It is very easy to use (unlike the "expert editor" ).

I was able to get some VERY convincing saxes, flutes and even violins using my WX controller. If you want to get a convincing sax using a keyboard (using a BC) play pentatonic mode and avoid pitch bending too much.
As for guitars... Well AJ's right, lack of polyphony is an issue.
They should've made the VL70-m and VL150 at least duo-phonic (like the original VL-1).
But if you're looking for killer bases, interesting synth leads, winds and violins
- VL 150 plug-in is a thing to go for.

-ED-

Ed, just out of curiosity, which WX controller do you have, the 5,7 or 11? And what do you think of it, likes, dislikes, etc.

Thanks,
Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Well it's a Yamaha WX5.
I'm just not sure what you mean by 5.7/11.
It's easy enough to check though if you really want me to.

Dislikes...hmmm
No real turn-offs.
Just MIDi related stuff. Especially with the VL70-m. When I'm using the serial connector (VL70m built in midi interface) it's OK.
However if I connect it to the Studio 5 - that's when I get occasional overloads.

Likes...
I played a clarinet and later a sax (when I was a kid). I really dig the fact that I can control a synth with something either then a guitar (I use a Roland GR33 to triger the VL as well) or a keyboard.

-ED-

The VL editor works fine for the VL150. The software is supplied with the board. I use both XG works and the SQ01 sequencer as the hosts for it. The SQ01 software comes bundled with the Motif Es, and the more I use it, the more I like it. I prefer the midi editing environment over Sonar, except of course that it doesn't support cal scripts or midi effects like Rythym and Chords pro, but it does have 960 ppq resolution, and although it doesn't have all the audio recording features that Sonar does, it does support VSt fx and instruments. I do the serious audio tweaks in cool edit pro anyway as opposed to Sonar, sq01, or N track, all of which I have and all of which I find to be useful.

It is a new skill Tom, but if you have played wind indtruments before, then you could probably make the VL150 really play well with a wind controller. Short of that, I'd recommend the breathe controller, unless you want to learn a whole new instrument. Even without the bc, if you set either the mod wheel or velocity settings just right and you can get comfortable enough, ( it's a litlle like learning to play a megavoice on the ES ), you can play an acoustic modeled sax or horn rather convinvingly if you practice it a little, and it'll sound pretty realistic.

AJ

Well,
AJ's right everything's a learning curve.

I personally use a bit of everything.
WX for sax, velo and wheels for flutes and violins and bases.
I tend to use the BC set when I'm programming. It gives me a pretty good idea about the way the sound will respond (hard to hold the WX and move the mouse at the same time ). But even then I often have to turn up the BC assigned wheel on my master controller (Can't blow into the BC all the time - makes my head spin).

I'd definitely get the BC set if I were you. It will enable you to play the sounds expressively and still use your keyboard to play.
WX' s going to be a bit of a pain at first. Even though I play some winds, it still took me a while to get comfortable with it and start playing, instead of cursing and fine tuning the parameters (sensitivity levels and all that stuff).

Anyway,
Thanks guys. I'm new to this forum (I normally hang out at "General Discussion")
Seeing familiar names like the VL70-m and the VL 150 made me feel right at home.

-ED-

ED, I was just using shorthand for WX5, WX7, and WX11. The WX7 and WX11 have been discontinued for some time now, but both are fairly readily available used. In the wind controller community some people still prefer the WX7 because it is made out of metal instead of plastic and they feel it is a more professional unit. The WX11 is a "dumbed down" version of the WX7, but it is also made of plastic and not metal; however, it is also supposedly easier to learn to play. Other people seem to think the WX5, because of features, is the most advanced wind controller Yamaha has ever made.

I used to play flute but quit because of denture problems (the lower denture moves when you tighten up your lower lip causing your embochure to go whacky and denture glue winds up making the pads sticky). Even so, I have considered the possibility of starting out with a WX5 and the flute (recorder actually) mouthpiece, but almost everyone on the windcontroller BBS recommends against doing that. Are you familiar with Bob "Notes" Norton's website where he gives explicit instructions on how to go about setting up the WX5? You might go there and print out the instructions just to keep around in case you ever need them.

I think what I will wind up doing is going up to GC in Portland and getting a MoES6 and bringing it home and trying it for a couple of weeks and then take it back and bring home a Tyros and see which one serves my purpose better and then getting/keeping that one. It's just such a pain to have to drive 100 miles one way every time just to do that. Oh well, no one ever promised me a rose garden in life!

AJ, unfortuneatly Yamaha apparently is no longer supporting XG Works and has never updated it to run on WinXP and I'm not willing to give up WinXP to run ANY software, at least that I know of right now. I do all my recording to a Korg D1600 hard disk recorder and then export through a CDRW to my laptop (a Sony FRV27) where I use both Sound Forge 6 and Wavelab 4 to mix/master, edit, and just generally message it into the form I want and then use EZ CD Creator to burn it to a CD. I have CEP2 but since I don't use multi-track audio, just stereo, I found the other two programs to be better for mastering/editing. I have a number of DirectX plugins that I use with them and they are doing everything I need to do and doing it very well.

If I do end up getting the MoES6, I will certainly be getting the VL plugin board too.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

Tom,

I am running XG works on XP. Yamaha has made a patch available to run it. I don't use it much at all any more, because the SQ01 software has better timing resolution, includes vst and dx support, has much better audio facilites than xg works, and it includes support for the latest Yamaha boards including the ES. The only reason I'd ever use XG works now is if I wanted to do something with a Yamaha style that required step recording. That rarely happens.

AJ