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#7434 - 09/08/03 07:43 PM FM addiction?
3351 Offline
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Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
What's everyone's take on FM?
Am I the only one here still using my DX,TX and stuff like that?
ED


[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-09-2003).]
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#7435 - 09/10/03 01:10 PM Re: FM addiction?
Equalizer Offline
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Registered: 02/12/01
Posts: 525
Loc: Scotland
I only wish someone would explain to me what FM synthesis was.

For years I've been hearing about FM synthesis, granular synthesis, analogue synthesis and so on... but to be honest, I've not entirely sure what these terms mean.
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#7436 - 09/10/03 01:48 PM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Equalizer!
Weell, if you don't know what FM synthesis is - I'll try to explain.
FM is a very mathematical form of synthesis. The simpler form of FM synthesis uses sine waves as a starting point. Those sine waves modulate one another to produce more complex waveforms. The sines are divided into groups of carriers and modulators. By changing frequency and amplitude of the modulators you re-shape the carrier waveform from a sine to something totally new. Comparing to analog, FM synthesis is a little unpredictable and non-linear, really. FM is for people, who like to use their head, or simply don't expect instant results.
If you really want to know more about FM - search the web for a DX7. Almost all the DX sites have an explanation on how FM works.
ED
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#7437 - 09/10/03 04:05 PM Re: FM addiction?
freddynl Offline
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Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 1150
Loc: netherlands
I use a couple of fm emulated sounds on my K2600.
Paul Dillen made a very nice program collection specially in kurz format.

I don't have any analoge gear left.
(only a hybrid akai ax60)
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#7438 - 09/10/03 09:43 PM Re: FM addiction?
Anonymous
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I had a Yamaha DX7-IIFD, but was not to big on FM syntheasis( Frequency Modulation, same as used for FM Radio) Grannular is farily new concept, but I don'think It has teken off yet. Analog on the other hand just reffers to the synthesizser made prior to 1980. Basiccly they are synths that use electrictiy instead of micro chips in digtal ones. (ex: Minimoog analog, DX7 digital)

There is also Rolands LA or Linear Algorithmic synthesis. That one I have no idea myself how that works. I think it is on the same princeaple as FM. Mathmaticlly speaking. But don't hold me to that.

Actually I own analog gear. But I am going to sell my AX-60 and Omni.

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#7439 - 09/11/03 01:32 AM Re: FM addiction?
Nigel Online   wise
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Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6122
Loc: Ventura CA USA
I still use a Yamaha TX802 and SY77 with AFM. The SY77 also has onboard effects which adds a new dimension to the FM patches. FM patches can be very expressive to play responding dynamically to velocity unlike most other synths.

And Roland's LA synthesis was nothing like FM. Those synths mixed digital wave sample "partials" with an analog synth circuit. The waves were very small due to the cost of memory at the time. The Roland D50 provided many hit sounds on records.

FM is very unique and when run through effects is capable of great sounds. You either like FM or you don't I guess.

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#7440 - 09/11/03 08:41 AM Re: FM addiction?
tekminus Offline
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Registered: 04/20/00
Posts: 1287
I'm not too fond of FM either. I have some nice sounds on my Nords. I can tweak them and so on but I can't say I'm 100% aware of what's going on.

-tek

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#7441 - 09/11/03 09:43 AM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Nigel - thanks!
It's good to hear some positive comments on FM.
I use a DX7, TX816 (fully loaded), TX81z and FS1R which takes FM to a whole new level. Can you tell me a little more about SY77? I come across those (used) all the time, but never had the guts to just go ahead and buy one. I've heard that there was something really odd about those.

Paul!
I have an L.A. synth - a Roland D50. It's a very simple form of digital sample-playback synthesis. It does not use analog filters or anything like that.
L.A. is totally digital, with digital filters, envelopes and samples. But being the "first of a kind" D-50 doesn't let you filter samples. You can only filter simple waveforms like sawtooth and square and all the typical analog waveforms.
The really interesting thing about a D-50 is the fact that is the first fully digital synth to have RingMod and PWM. L.A. sounds are all over late 80's, early 90's hit records. They are kind of thin and cold, but nevertheless characteristic and unique.
Good example is the first few episodes of StarTrek the next generation. You can here a lot of D-50 there.

Tek, Knob tweaking guys (analog kids) DON'T dig FM, Period. It's a fact.
ED
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#7442 - 09/11/03 11:02 PM Re: FM addiction?
Nigel Online   wise
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Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6122
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by 3351:
Can you tell me a little more about SY77? I come across those (used) all the time, but never had the guts to just go ahead and buy one. I've heard that there was something really odd about those.


There is nothing odd about the SY77. I see you also have a FS1R. I haven't used one of those but I'd imagine the Advanced FM with the extra algorithms is probably also the same in the FS1R. The SY77 is a great synth. Very much the update to the DX7II. The digital samples are very early and lores but still useful to layer with the FM voices. The SY99 is basically the same engine but adds sample memory and improved onboard FX. I would really like to pick up a FS1R myself as it sounds like the ultimate FM synth.

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#7443 - 09/12/03 10:17 AM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Hi Nigel!
If you need an FS1R - THey are discontinued.
Songbird (in Ottawa) have one used. Here's a link:http://www.songbirdmusic.com/ottasp/index.asp

As for SY77....
Most guys that complained were probably not to keen on programming. One of my friends has one and he just confirmed what you said.
There's nothing odd about it.

By the way, How do you like the FM7 soft synth. I think it's the only software puppy that responds like a piece of hardware.
ED.
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#7444 - 09/15/03 01:24 PM Re: FM addiction?
frequency49 Offline
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Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Lincoln, NE, USA
I am new to the synthzone, and have progressively been dabbling in the KBS realm for the past few years - guitar and vocals being my first instruments of choice - modern rock/grunge/heavy/ genres but with much interest in hip hop and rNb beats.... Anyway. I have a Yamaha DX200 desktop synth - which I think counts for FM synth?
I also have a KORG EA-1 electribe and I must say I dig the FM possibilities.

I'll have plenty of questions for the many wise ones later!

- - - -

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#7445 - 09/15/03 07:30 PM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Yes, DX200 is FM.

I find that FM lets you program sounds that work well with heavy guitars.
Simply pick any sound and turn up the level of the modulators 'till the sound starts to distort. the result is more interesting then simply running a sound through a distortion effect. Bands like Skinny Puppy and Nine inch nails have been using that simple, but effective method for years. (although they also used fuzzboxes and guitar amps to distort their synths).
By the way I also play guitar and sing.
ED

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-15-2003).]
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#7446 - 09/16/03 08:34 AM Re: FM addiction?
frequency49 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Lincoln, NE, USA
cool....

I've been most influenced by a band called "God Lives Underwater" in the whole synth - guitar - rock hybrid. I've never heard anything like them in the way they blended everything. I hear a lot of synths and keys in music today, but nothing like the early GLU factor.

What do the Fantom s88 and Triton Studio fall into as far as analog/FM on the synth aspect that is?

- - - -

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#7447 - 09/16/03 09:47 AM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
The Roland Fantom s88 and Korg Triton Studio are neither FM nor analog.
They use a linear substractive synthesis )sample- amplitude - filter - pitch) combined with sampling and advanced sample processing. Pretty much the same thing as a Yamaha MOTIF. I believe, some of them also feature a bit of physical modeling and Granular synthesis. But in overall they are just sample based digital workstations that don't really have anything to do with FM synthesis (although
V-synth has FM - but that's not what sells it.)

If you are looking for other FM synths check out:
Yamaha DX, TX and SY series. You can also check out the Yamaha FS1R.
Besides using FM for usual FM stuff, the FS1R features formant synthesis, which is basically FM, but a little deeper and produces more complex textures that range from human vocal patterns & loops to realistic acoustic and percussion sounds.

Also check out Native Instruments FM7. I use it ALOT. Besides being compatible with all the Yamaha FM stuff, it has some unique abilities of it's own. It's pretty good at creating loops and sounds with a lot of motion.
ED
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#7448 - 09/16/03 09:58 AM Re: FM addiction?
frequency49 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Lincoln, NE, USA
so there's not much changing of the sampled sounds on the workstations unless you re-sample your own sounds ? right?

I like the workstations though for the overall ability to compact so many different parts of a song in one unit/instrument - the way I understand them that is (thinking on purchasing one) opposed to each part/phrase individually, then attempted midi sequencing which isn't working to well fo me, like on my two desktop synths in collab with a yamaha djxii (don't laugh) now.

but I wouldn't ditch the FM desktop or either one. they so portable and simple - sort of simple that is.


What about the NORD lead seris, like the 2 and 2x - don't those have FM capability? I think GLU used them?


- - - -

[This message has been edited by frequency49 (edited 09-16-2003).]

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#7449 - 09/16/03 02:10 PM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Many nowadays mainstream synths have FM capabilities. But they do emulations of FM as in oppose to real FM A-Z kind of synthesis.
DX200 is a pretty advanced box. From FM point of view anyway.

And I think workstations like S88 and MOTIF offer some interesting sample processing capabilities. You'd be amazed with what a simple sample time stretch can do to a sound.
As for sequencing - don't worry about it. You'll learn. Get CUBASE and keep on trying - you'll become pretty good. I guarantee that.

ED
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#7450 - 09/16/03 02:43 PM Re: FM addiction?
frequency49 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Lincoln, NE, USA
I'm hearing you! I buoght cubasis VST right before I upgraded to OS X, hence I am not using it as I'd have to run classic OS 9 to do so noticed you use Logic - but not ready to gouge the pocket for that yet - so yes, cubase SX might be an option.

no input/output on the Nord Lead(s) 1,2,2x,or 3?

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#7451 - 09/16/03 03:28 PM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
I don¸t know much about the NORD LEADs because I don't own one myself.
But there are a few guys that hang around this site that do.

By the way I find that I'm also forced to bounce in between OS9 and OSX. Mostly because of some soft synths that have not been updated for OSX yet.
ED
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#7452 - 09/19/03 08:45 AM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Well, my latest FM challenge is to program that sound from "Money for nothing" (Dire Straits). If anyone here ever programmed a DX, they'll know what I'm talking about.
I've made lots of attemts to get it right, but only got close. There must be someone that knows how to program that sound...
ED
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#7453 - 09/19/03 09:48 AM Re: FM addiction?
tekminus Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/00
Posts: 1287
Here is a Nord Modular FM workshop. It's probably useful for non-clavia users too, as it is very visual. You can follow the examples, if you have the routing capabilities in your synth. Remember, alot of the patching is already done on FM specific synths.

The rest of the tips (not just FM) are here . Alot of synthesis reading here, with pictures that show connections and so on.

-tek

[This message has been edited by I SWEAR THIS UBB CRAP HATES ME! AAAAARRRFGGGH!½!!"21 (edited 09-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by tekminus (edited 09-19-2003).]

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#7454 - 09/21/03 10:27 AM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Nord modular?
- Good ludk finding software support (that works) and in a few years - spare parts!

Modular FM seems interesting though...
ED
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A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
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#7455 - 09/21/03 02:38 PM Re: FM addiction?
tekminus Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/00
Posts: 1287
There is no luck needed. Just give Clavia a call. The Modular is discontinued, you know, like the DX and TX. The latest Modular OS is v3.03, available free from clavia.se

In november they'll release the G2, and so it goes on.

-tek

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#7456 - 09/21/03 03:12 PM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Lets just say NO luck is needed for now.
Clavia ain't Yamaha, tek.
But we'll see...
When was modular discontinued?
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A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
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#7457 - 09/21/03 07:38 PM Re: FM addiction?
tekminus Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/00
Posts: 1287
It was announced earlier this year I think. The current hardware was too limited for all the things people requested, so they decided to make the G2. That's what I read on the mailing list anyway.

-tek

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#7458 - 09/21/03 08:05 PM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Sounds like Clavia are being a lot wiser than Roland or Yamaha...
Thise companies are too set in their ways.

By the way, Tek can you think of any sites that have diagrams for basic ways to connect the modules on the modular synths?

I checked out the "FM" link that you provided - You're right it's very graphic and detaled.
Thanks!
ED



[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-21-2003).]
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A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

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#7459 - 09/30/03 03:01 PM Re: FM addiction?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Hey everyone!
Just a quick follow up on my "Jumbo frets on the 52 TELE".
I just got my TL back from the shop.
Feels like a totlly different instrumrnt. Beats the hell out of having the original tiny frets. Even bending is a LOT easier (I'm using 11-50 gage and a ferely high action). I guess the original 52 TL was mase for guys who DON'T bend at all or like thin strings and low action (which I hate). I mean having jumbo frets is night and day difference!

ED

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-30-2003).]
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