Hi rikkisbears,

I read that you have BIAB style already converted to KN7000 (or KN6000). I would be very interested in getting some of these if possible. I've used BIAB since it was a DOS program and it would be great to have some of it's styles available on my PR54.

Hi,
I did quite a few years back for my kn3000. In those days I was content to just have the 2 variations and that awful drum tap they used to call an intro.
Unfortunately the BIAB styles I've worked on recently are not really complete yet.I do a lot of experimenting to try and work out what does & doesn't work. I've yet to work out how to get 4 distinct variations ( as BIAB really only has 2 (a&b) and even though the program creates a slightly different version each time you regenerate a song, the differences are only slight.
Also the demo songs in BIAB sound good possibly because of the complex chord changes they use, but when I've created a style from that same BIAB style it sounds rather bland and incomplete compared to our kn7 styles.
The intro's & endings still leave a lot to be desired also. At one stage I was hoping to maybe use the soloist function to try and create intro's, but for the time being I've had to put BIAB on hold.

Instead I've been working on the best way to try and convert psr styles. At least they have good intro's & endings.

I'm also still hoping to get a bit of a style group started for the members who are interested in creating their own styles. Just on ideas and which buttons to press etc.
If your Pr actually has seq to style function, there's no reason why you couldn't create your own styles from BIAB. The actual process itself is simple enough. The hard part for me ( mainly because of lack of musical ability) is in the finishing off and making the style sound good.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rikki,

I actually have the same problem musically. I play more by ear and use EZ Note music just to help me remember the cords and some times the notes. I know the letters and I'm working on the staff but I don't know much about timing. I've tried to create my own styles to use in the KN6000 and they always sound bad. But I tend to be a style freak. I love to hear all the different style and I'm always amazed at how good some of them are.

The one wishlist item I'd like to see for the KN and PR series is a Style Loader Program instead of the song manager. But maybe it can be adapted to do that.

Since I switched to the PR it's not connect to my computer like the KN6000 was. I have a PSR500 I use for that. So I have not been about to try the Song Manager.

Best Wishes,
Heather

BIAB 4 Variations. Most of the styles, although not all use 5 parts.
Var1 Use Drums,Bass
Var2 Use Drums,Bass,Piano
Var3 Use Drums,Bass,Piano,Guitar
Var4 Use Drums,Bass,Piano,Guitar,Strings.
In Style Edit you can copy & paste parts within the same or different styles.

Graham UK

Hi Heather,
I can actually read music ( for all the good it does me, haahaa), I really wish I could play by ear ( a bit more). My own fault really, I spend too much time fiddling round working out what the keyboards can do, instead of PRACITICING music.

I'm a style freak too.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shcox:

The one wishlist item I'd like to see for the KN and PR series is a Style Loader Program instead of the song manager.

I don't know what style creation facilities are available on your piano, but the keyboards have quite a few.

I assume you have a composer section, so do you have the following features

EASY COMPOSER,
PATTERN COPY
SEQ TO COMPOSER COPY
they can all be used to help you create either new styles or alter existing styles.

Just not sure what editing facilities your piano has.

best wishes
Rikki

Thank you Graham.
I could try that. It would give me a bit more variety.
I was also thinking of somehow maybe adding more or changing some of the drums ie try and build up the drum patterns with each variation.
I'll have to study a few of the styles and see if I can work out how to they do it. Drums , I find the hardest to make any sense of, especially in fills. I seem to get the individual volumes all wrong , and I end up with one drum sound drowning out another. Haven't quite got it in head as to what drums should be soft, and which ones should be loud. I suppose it's something I'm going to have try and work out for myself.

Thanks again

best wishes
Rikki

Heather, if you had just posted your desires a week earlier...............! I was just at the Plantations south of Leesburg looking at homesites and visiting family and friends. I would have brought you some Christmas styles had I but known. I still have 2 zip files of Christmas songs for the KN6K/7K, but they won't transfer to your PR's unless you drop the sequenced file and use the style. Let me know if you want them. Bud

Thanks Graham,

I may sit down and try some of these. I do remember doing it one time for a song I wrote using BIAB. It never sounded right on the KN6000 until I brought over the style then at least I could play it.

So I have to first make sure the PR54 can do that then try to figure out how to do it on the PR.

Heather

Hi Rikki,


I know the PR has EASY COMPOSER and that I can take a style and redo it but usually all I'm doing is changing the instruments and not the pattern.

And I wish I could read music more which is why I've down loaded a music note flash card program to help me memorize the note on the staff instead of using the note Letters.

But even when I play plain piano I play cords with the left hand and not individule notes.

Often I just sit down and start playing and make up (write) a song as I go for finger practice.

What I meant about my wish list was that I have about 35 disks with styles on them. It would be nice to be able to organize them on a computer and just press and load one as you do with the built in styles. As I said the Song Manager may be able to be used for this but right now I need to look for a cheap Laptop with a USB 2 port to put with the PR because the PR in in one room and the computer in another.

If Technics would give out a bit of information about their computer to instrument I'd write my own program since that is what I do.

Best wishes
Heather

Hello Bud,

The Plantation is nice we looked there but decided to build at Pennbooke Fairways a little north of Plantation and west of Leesburg. It has a few less homes and the developer will be turning it over to us within a year.

Anyway, I'd love to try the songs just to see if they play since I've found very few songs the were done for the KN6000/7000 that didn't load and play just fine on my PR54. Plus, if I need to I can load the song and then the correct stlye and resave it if needed since I have most of the KN6500 styles of disk.

Just email them unless you are coming back to the area soon.

I'll be in Ohio during Christmas.

Happy Site Hunting.
Heather

Heather,
I just listened to your song 'A Night of Love' that is on your web site. It is very nice.
Perhaps you would like to do a tutorial on making such a song using Band in a Box, step by step. The reason that I am suggesting this, is that , if used properly, BIAB can be a terrific tool for creating new styles for keyboards and pianos that have the 'Midi/sequencer copy to Composer feature'.
I hope that others would also like this so that you would be compelled to teach us some new tricks.
Regards,
Walt

Hi Walt,
I realize your question wasn't actually directed at me ( so sorry for butting in).

Depending on what you were actually planning to do, you'd treat songs ( midifiles) created in Band in a Box differently ie if you were going to create a style using BIAB you'd record it one way.
If you were going to use it as a song that you saved as a midifile for playback in the kn7 sequencer, you'd record it entirely differently ie you could record a complete arrangement using BIAB styles plus record a melody, save it as a midifile, load it into your kn7 sequencer, adjust the instruments volumes etc. and you've got a sequence.
You could leave out recording the melody line in BIAB and just save the arrangement as a backing track ( midifile). In this scenario you'd still load the midifile into your kn7, adjust the volumes and change instruments etc and the sequencer could play the backing and you can play along live. ( music minus one)

If you wanted to create a kn7 style from a BIAB style , that's a different procedure.
You wouldn't want chord changes in your style except for your intro's and endings. The rest of the style parts should really be recorded in just the key of c.

I've got a few ideas floating round in my head, just need to type it up in a way hopefully makes sense to others.

best wishes
Rikki
p.s. do you have BIAB and want to know how to create styles from it?

Hi Rikki,

Yes. When I tried making styles (all key of C), they are 'dull'. It seems that BIAB only generates variations when it is asked to change key. Am I missing something?
Any help is appreciated.
Regards,
Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Meyer (edited 11-01-2003).]

Hi Walt,
I tend to think the problem is that BIAB songs sound quite good because in PG's demo's they use a lot of complicated chords & a lot of chord changes.

I too found that if I only used the more simple chords like majs , min, 7ths etc the type of chords you get in the EZ Play type of music ( which is all I'm capable of playing on my kn7) the songs sounded a bit dull wheras if I used a Fake or Buskers Book with the more complicated chords and more frequent chord changes, the song sounded better.

I do get variations crop up even when based just on the c chord.
I just keep hitting the play button.
It may have something to do with the actual styles that you tried creating from.
Maybe the BIAB style you used didn't have a lot of variations within itself. If you click the style editor in BIAB you should see a grid with a number of boxes . The more boxes, the more variety within that style.

I'm doing the following with a simple orchestral waltz I'm working on.

I chose the chord c.
I created
bar 1 (a) to 9 bars 1to8 vari 1 bar 9 fill
bar 10(b) to 18 bars 10to17vari 3 bar 18 fill
bar 19(a) to 27 bars 19to26vari 2 bar 27 fill
bar 28(b) to 36 bars 28to35vari 4 bar 36 fill
bar 37(a) to 40 Intro 1 ( create a 4 bar
bar 41(b) to 44 Intro 2 chord progression
bar 45(a) to 48 Ending 1 suitable for key
bar 49(b) to 52 Ending 2 of c)
Change to CMinor for Minor Intro & Ending
bar 53(a) to 56 Intro 1 ( create a 4 bar
bar 57(b) to 60 Intro 2 chord progression
bar 61(a) to 64 Ending 1 suitable for key
bar 65(b) to 68 Ending 2 of cm)

for the variations ie bar 1 to 8, I didn't neccesarily use the whole 8 bars for my variation. I picked the 4 bars that sounded the best, ie it could have been 1 to 4 or 2 to 6 etc

Also I used BIAB (a) for vari 1 & 2

(b) for vari 3 & 4

Unfortunately I don't think these styles will ever sound as good as our kn7 ones do but, don't forget we can mix n' match parts of our internal kn7 styles with these BIAB styles by using
Pattern Copy on Page 2 of composer

ie replace BIAB composer style part drum 1 with drum 1 from one of the internal styles.
Or make a BIAB composer style sound fuller by adding additional parts like a string part from one of the internal styles.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Walt Meyer:
[B]Hi Rikki,

When I tried making styles (all key of C), they are 'dull'. It seems that BIAB only generates variations when it is asked to change key.

Hi Rikki,
Thanks for the come-back. I have Version 11 of BIAB.
I guess that I will just have to spend more time with the program (something that I don't have just at this time).
Thanks for the run-down on the Waltz that you are working on and for the other tips.
Maybe you would like to send me a copy of the Orchestral Waltz style when you get it done and I'll give you an opinion.
Cheers,
Walt

Hi Walt and Rikki,

Sorry I don't get on much over the weekends. Being a programmer I sit in front on the Computer too much as it is.

Anyway with BIAB styles there are a couple of things you can do to get style variations the most important being is to pick a style that has a lot of variation to start with. As you know first there are the A and B style variations but each of these can has several variations depending on how complicated the style was put together.

To know this you load the style then use the style editor to look at the A and B parts for each instrument. The more patterns that were recorded the more variation BIAB will produce when the song is "compiled". For example on the Piano A varaition one pattern could be a Staccato and another an Arpeggio.

There are pattern setting for lengths of notes as well. Each pattern has a weight setting from 1 to 9 where 1 is the least often and 9 the most often.

In most cases these will all be set to 5 so in effect when you play the song each pattern has an equal chance of being selected for any given note. By raising the weight on a pattern to 9 you increase the chance that the pattern will be used and lowering the number to 1 decreases the chance.

The same is true for drums and fill-ins.

If you don't like a pattern you can record your own or add patterns. (Thats were I have a problem.)

So in this example, you could create a variation by setting Staccato to 9 and Arpeggio to 1 (Zero might turn it off I don't remember if it accepts 0) in the BAIB A variation. Save the style and create 8 bars of C and save it to midi. Use that to create your first variation in KN/PR. Then reverse the settings and do it again. You could also create 8 bars of C and put Ca at the 4th and 8th bars which would put a fill in at bars 4 and 8.

Then do the same for the BIAB variation B.

The problem comes in finding styles that are created with that much detail. Many of the newer styles are as are the Norton Add-on Styles.

I'll do separate reply for creating a song.

Regards,
Heather

Hi Walt,

Thank you for you kind compliment.

A step by step on creating a song would be difficult because I use different ways.

One is to start as Rikki did, use the Melodyist to create a song. BIAB can create two types of songs. AABA and ABCA. The first means 2 rounds of the same main melody then a chorus then a repeat of the main melody. The second is the main melody once then raised to a different set of chords.

What I'll do is create the type of song I want then delete the melody before I listen to it the first time. That way when I hear the cords I can create my own melody without the influence of the one BIAB created. Then I record my own melody and tweak the chords.

Usually I'll save the original just in case I don't come up with anything. In this case I may use the basic melody but record over pieces that don't sound right or have enough happening.

BIAB also allows you to "Jazz Up" a song so you can put in the basic chords as in the EZ Play music then select "Jazz Up" and it will fill in chords or change some to 7th so on.

I also will take the main chord and add variation for example if there are 4 bars of C I might try C13 at the second bar or C9 or C6/G just to see how they sound in the song. The sad part is that while I may not even know how to play a C13 I can write a song that uses it.

Another way I write is the usually way where I just sit at the piano and start to play. If I here something I like I write it down then go to BIAB and start entering the chords. When I'm done I record the melody using either BIAB or Power Tracks.

I hope this gives you some things to play with. It's great fun to do when I have a bunch of time which is not often enough.

BIAB is a great tool but even with it connected to the KN ro PR it does not have the same quality of styles as the KN/PRs.

One of my favorites on our Website is "Sunday Afternoon" which is when I wrote it.

Best Wishes,
Heather

Hi Heather,
I must admit I haven't really used BIAB much recently. Only use it on the odd occasion when I want to fiddle round with style creation on the kn7.

Good tip on changing the weights of the BIAB patterns. I might check that out and see what happens.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by shcox:
[B]Hi Walt and Rikki,

There are pattern setting for lengths of notes as well. Each pattern has a weight setting from 1 to 9 where 1 is the least often and 9 the most often.

In most cases these will all be set to 5 so in effect when you play the song each pattern has an equal chance of being selected for any given note. By raising the weight on a pattern to 9 you increase the chance that the pattern will be used and lowering the number to 1 decreases the chance.

Regards,
Heather

Hi Walt,
BIAB is an interesting program, but I don't really use it much either, except for fiddling round with style creation for the kn7. I really don't have the spare time either to check BIAB thoroughly.

As for the waltz, it's only a really simple one. ( I was mainly trying to give you ideas to try)
The waltz only consists of bass, piano arpeggio, strings & french horns ( no drums) so probably not terribly exciting to most.
I decided to try & create it for the song "Always" (Irving Berlin).

I'm a Richard Clayderman fan ( nutter in fact , I've got most of his albums
( dozens) , much to hubby's dismay)
Anyway, I'm really fond of piano arpeggio's. I wasn't too good at playing left hand arpeggio's on my piano, so now I cheat and create the odd arpeggio style. Gives me a false sense of actually being able to play
( haahaa).

If you'd still like a copy when I finish, let me know. I personally like simple styles, but bear in mind, there's probably a lot more that could be done with it by incorporating phrases ( like drums) or substituting strings from the kn7.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Bud,

Just wanted to let you know the Christmas songs are loading and playing fine on my PR54. I didn't do anything except copy them to a disk.

Thanks for the songs.

Heather

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bud Whipple:

I would have brought you some Christmas styles had I but known. I still have 2 zip files of Christmas songs for the KN6K/7K, but they won't transfer to your PR's unless you drop the sequenced file and use the style. Let me know if you want them.

Hi Walt,
if you'd still like a copy of my styles (
I've got 2 now), let me know and I'll send them to you. I could use a bit of constructive critism as I'm slowly editing to death and there won't be anything left of them soon( haahaa)

rikkisbears@hotmail.com

best wishes
Rikki