I just read a post, "Direct record to tape recorder" and all the replies. From what I read from the posts of Bob Hendershot and technicsplayer, I am unsure as to the direction I want to go in regards to buying outboard equipment. I am not only a keyboard player but also a vocalist. My intentions have been to get a Roland VS880 or perhaps a new model if now available so I could multi-track using voice and laying harmony voices down track by track. Bob speaks of a mistake buying the VS880 but maybe it is because he is not a vocalist. Correct me on that, Bob, if I am wrong.

Several years ago, I had a KN1000 that I did all original arrangements on for adding vocals. When I finished an arrangement, I went left and right out of the keyboard into a Teac 3440 multi-track (4 tracks) analog recorder. I recorded this dry (no reverb) into the tape deck. Also, I had a dbx noise eliminator for the recorder which completely removed any tape hiss. I put left out into Channel 1 and right out into Channel 4, leaving Channel 2 and 3 free for vocals. I recorded the vocals flat and no reverb. When this was completed, I played this through one of the best Lexicon reverb units and a very good compressor/limiter that went into a Mackie mixer. When I got the mix I wanted, I recorded from the Mackie to a Tascam dat recorder, making a master tape for a CDR. I put out a beautiful high quality-sounding album that I have to say, is right up there with the big guys in professional sound.

I have been planning on another CD release and was planning on buying a multi-track recorder such as the Roland VS880, recording pretty much the same way but digitally instead of using the old workhorse Teac 3440. You guys have thrown a scare into me in leaning in this direction. I am also planning on buying a top of the line computer - 2.2GHz with 120GB hard drive, a state of the art sound card, a DVD ROM drive and a separate CDRW. I was advised not to buy a DVD-CDRW for they are too new and have design problems and to wait awhile. At the moment, I am really confused with all the technology that is now available.

My end result is - I want to burn my own CDs for release. I realize most of you play only and are not vocalists. For years, I was a professional jazz pianist/singer in clubs in New York and my voice was a major part of my performance. With the good equipment I own, (other than the now outdated Teac 3440) I would appreciate your knowledgeable thoughts on what I should do. I am a real perfectionist when recording and I need multi-track editing capabilities, especially for vocals.

Hi NSR,
When you want to know, go to the pro. I suggest that you talk to Scott Yee an outstanding vocalist/Technics player who is a member of this forum. Scott has made some beautiful recording and doesn’t let his ego get in the way of sharing good information. You can reach him at: http://scottyee.com/
Frank

Frank is right. Talk to Scott Yee. Scott usually reads this forum. If your plans are to buy a high end computer with a professional sound card, Scott can be of a lot of help. I didn't want to get involved with sound cards primarily because my music stuff is not where my computer stuff is and I needed different things in different parts of the house. I am not a vocalist so the things that are right for me are definitely not right for you. All I have been doing is recording the keyboard itself. If you are young and have a good mind, the VS880 (or something similar) may be right for you. But, talk to someone that has used one for vocals and try to get some hands on recording with the equipment before you buy, to be sure you are headed the right direction.

your decision is similar to mine, except that I was not particularly interested in multitracking as the first priority, but wanted the option too. The problem is, if you have a powerful enough computer already, do you spend money duplicating stuff with a hard disk recorder? Because I had laptops that were powerful enough for what I need an external soundcard made sense, there are guitar and microphone inputs as well as the keyboard and a digitech or external processor is easily hooked in. Look at the Edirol and Yamaha gear availble.
If you have a pc rather than a laptop you may want the hard disk recorder just for portability and not being fixed to the pc location.
There are many high end souncards to put in a pc to give you mixing and controller facilities.
The alternative to a hard disk is a mixer and recorder, dat, cd, minidisk, adat etc though mutitracking would not be so simple down this route.
It boils down to how much you want to spend and do you mind buying gear that duplicates what you can do in the pc, just for the portability.

Frank & Bob: Thanks for the kind words. Though I"m certainly not the definitive expert on this subject, I'll at least offer my opinions based on my own experiences. NSR: If you're already purchasing a brand new top of the line computer anyway, it might be the best way to go to achieve the studio production quality recording results you're looking for. You didn't mention if you're getting a Mac or PC. Though I'm a long time Mac devotee, I recently switched to the PC for music production, because it seems that PC music programs (cakewalk sonar, logic & cubase) have finally caught up (featurewise) with the once superior Mac dominated music production platform. I use an M Audio Midiman Delta66 24 bit/96 soundcard with Omni I/O Studio mixer, and find it works great and at a bargain price (relatively).
http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/delta66.php
http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/omnistud.php

The soundcard is extremely quiet and has very low latency. Latency delay is extremely IMPORTANT, especially for live monitoring of your vocals. I personally prefer PC desktop based music production vs the standalone units because the large (17" or more) full color computer screen offers better control visually and it's much easier for me to navigate (on a full sized keybord/mouse) than the dual purpose function knobs of hard disk recording workstations. Software sequencers also support recording midi/digital audio tracks side by side. The only advantage (imho) of the digital hard disk recorder workstation is portability & convenience. If quality, production control, and ease in multitracking is important, then I recommend going the PC desktop or laptop (if portability is really important) based digital audio sequencer route. I'm running Cakewalk Sonar
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SR/SR1.html

on Windows XP which includes the NEW impressive (low latency) Windows WDM drivers and very happy with the results. If you're buying a new computer, DEFINITELY go with Windows XP. It really is a big improvement. Amazingly, XP hasn't crashed even once on me yet. What I like most is that all the above products work well (compatible) together. I then use Easy CD Creator to master the CD. Hope this helps. Good luck. - Scott http://scottyee.com

Oops, i forgot this. Here's a link to a soundcard comparison chart you may find useful:
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/

Hi NSR
No one seems to have mentioned the minidisk recorder.Iuse one of these to record audiotracks and them import them into cubase.
I use the line out into the minidisk and the quality is very good for both vocals and backing. I record Dry and add effects in cubase.Then easy Cd creator to get it on disk.
To store songs I convert to MP3 and back to Audio if I want them again. This is quite easy and quick the results are good .
If you want a sample of one of my recordings,please email me.

[This message has been edited by kozykeys (edited 02-13-2002).]

Kozykeys:
The mini disk recorder is indeed a great way to record your live performances on the gig because it is so small and convenient to operate on the fly (I got an Aiwa AM-C80). Still, the minidisk is a 'compressed' format, so won't match the CD or better quality which 16 bit or 24 bit/96 khz provides. To achieve real pro quality results, you need capture the most you can on input.

NSR: Btw, for recording vocals, I strongly suggest using a good quality 'condenser type' mic. A dynamic type mic (Shure SM58/EV757, etc) is fine for live performance because it is rugged and can withstand the riggers of the road/stage, but a condenser mic (though more easily damaged if dropped) will capture the vocal clarity & detail which can't be reproduced on a dynamic mic. I own and highly recommend the AKG C3000 for its exceptional sound and sound, as well as its excellent value (for the dollar).
http://www.akg-acoustics.com/english/microphones/index.html

Thanks, so much to all of your replies. I especially want to thank Scott Yee and technicsplayer for your input. Scott, I appreciate the links you have posted for me. This is something I will have to think long and hard as to my decision. With all the possibilities of professional recording on the PC, (not a Mac or laptop) it does make me want to lean in this direction. On the other hand, there is acoustics to consider for vocals and what about being able to use a compressor/limiter. A compressor/limiter is one of the most useful and necessary pieces of equipment (MAJOR) you can own if you are putting out music with vocals. It controls your vocal signal from flying all over the map for your final mix. In the past, I used this only on vocals and not the music - I could get the punch I wanted for the music using the Mackie mixer. So, with this - How does it play into using a PC for my music production? Also, this ties up the computer for business I do on the net. Perhaps I could do post production work with the PC, especially when it comes time for burning the CD. Questions, questions! Thinking, thinking!

If I should decide to go with say, the Roland VS880, how well does this record vocals? Is it as good a sound as recording analog? We all know and have heard how "warm" analog is. If I read correctly at one time, this unit has its own built-in mixer so I would not be using the Mackie - right? Does this unit have a digital out that could go into my dat recorder or PC?

Scott, with the CD software that is available, I am assuming one will be able to not only time the songs but more importantly, number them as commercial CDs are produced. I could be wrong, but on the earlier CD recorders, you recorded from beginning to end with pauses in between songs - they were not numbered to take in the possibility of random play when playing in your CD player.

Scott, I have been using a Beyer M500, which is a dynamic mic. How does this compare to your AKG C3000? A lot, I guess, or you wouldn't be recommending a 'condenser type' mic.

All your replies are much appreciated.

in fact I did mention minidisk, and although sony have improved the atrac compression system, it still remains around 5:1 therefore better than mp3 but not as good as dat or cd for a master. The spec is open ended and backwards compatible to some extent, so improvements can be made to the psycho-acoustic masking algorithms that these compression systems rely on. But as Scott says fine for a finished stereo recording, not really suitable as a master if you are talking about spending money on condenser mikes etc, and tricky for multitracking, since you really want masters as good as you can get, and hopefully better than the eventual mixdown to avoid degradation. adat is a possiblity but maybe getting old hat now, but maybe you can get something cheap?

You have 2 questions -

do I need portability, or is it acceptable to be fixed to the pc (or laptop if you have one powerful enough)? a hard disk recorder might be needed for flexibility, but you are duplicating much that can be done with the pc.

is a 2 track master enough? ie can you mix and record without wanting to go back? if 2 tracks is enough then dat, audio cd, minidisk, etc might be acceptable. If you want to wave mutitrack and post produce with external (or software) processors, then a hard disk recorder or high end soundcard in (or external to) the pc is the answer.

[This message has been edited by technicsplayer (edited 02-14-2002).]