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#57854 - 04/02/03 07:06 PM Chord Knowledge/Theory
lrngkybrd Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Queen Creek, Arizona
I haven't written in a while, but I've got a question for you. I decided I was going to expand my knowledge of the keyboard and learn some new cords. I decided to learn al the chords with 9, for example, C9, B9, D9, etc. So I found a web site that had all these chords for me and I stared to write down which notes and I noticed that C7 & C9 are the same, B7 & B9 are the same and on and on. Needless to say this has me a little puzzled. Can someone explain this to me? Thanks.

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#57855 - 04/02/03 08:31 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
KeithB Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Melbourne AUSTRALIA
You on'll find some information (plus other) http://psrtutorial.com/Resources/R_ChordSecrets/R_Ch102/W12_9th/w12_9th.html
Keith

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#57856 - 04/03/03 12:41 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Good Morning from the UK!

I will try to shed some light on chords for you.

All scales, whether major, minor or other, contain seven notes. In the case of the C major scale, the notes are C-D-E-F-G-A-B. Those notes are also referred to as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. The basic C major chord is composed of three of those notes, namely the root or first note (C), the third note (E), and the fifth note (G). If you wish to play C6 you add the sixth note (A) to the three notes forming the basic chord. If you wish to play a C major 7 chord you add the seventh note (B) to the basic chord.

You asked why C7 and C9 are the same. C7 is a "dominant" chord. Dominant chords are formed by playing 1, 3, 5, and 7 with the 7th note played a semi-tone (half tone) lower. In the case of C7, the notes played would be C, E, G, and B flat, or 1, 3, 5, b7. Now, we said the C major scale is composed of the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, and B, or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. If we continue up the keyboard from the note B, the next note will be C again, or 8. Continuing on we come to D (9), E (10), F (11), G (12), and A (13).

We said C7 is a dominant chord. Adding a 9th, 11th, or 13th note to any chord is often referred to as "altering" the chord. Altered chords are most often found in the form of a dominant chord to which a 9th, 11th, or 13th note has been added. However, major and minor chords are also altered from time to time to achieve the harmony intended by the composer.

To sum up, a C7 chord is composed of the notes C, E, G, b7, and a C9 chord is composed of C, E, G, b7, and D (the 9th note). As you can see, the foundation of the C9 chord is a C7 chord that has been "altered" by adding the ninth note D. Play it on your keyboard and listen to the sound. Kind of jazzy eh?

If you want to play a C11, then play a C7 chord and add the 11th note (F). Likewise, to play a C13, play a C7 and add the 13th note (A).

Chords are also altered by playing the 9th, 11th, and 13th a semi-tone (half tone) lower or higher. For example, a C7 chord with an augmented 11th (the 11th note raised a semi-tone) would require that you play the basic C7 chord and add F#.

Finally, since all scales are mathematically derived, you can apply the formula 1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, and 13 to any scale by beginning with the root note and counting upwards. Try it and see. You will find that what I've explained applies to the B7 and B9 chords you mentioned and all dominant chords of the twelve major scales.

That is an explanantion of chord construction. In practice, you would not play all of the notes of the chord because we don't have enough fingers and the stretch from root note to 13th note (for example)is impossible (for me at least). Altered chords are usually voiced (played) using the root note (1), the third note (3), and the flatted seventh (b7) in the left hand and the ninth or other added notes are played with the right hand.

I hope I have answered your question in a way that is easy to understand. We could get into scale construction, i.e., tone, tone, semi-tone etc. and intervals and the list of harmony considerations goes on and on. Countless books have been written on the subject. Your question concerned dominant and altered chords and I trust you know now why a C7 and C9 chord are alike.

Take care.

Chuck

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#57857 - 04/03/03 01:12 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
John North Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Alfreton, Derbyshire, England
An interesting site for chords of all types including inversions is:- http://www.cumpas.co.uk/piano.php
John

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#57858 - 04/03/03 05:33 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
I don't know which site said C7 and C9 were the same notes, but if you want to investigate the chords just go to the mode page and press chord finder.

switch to pianist, and then work along from 7ths to the various added 9ths. Switch the inversion to root every time and it is very clear in the display how extended chords are constructed - and you can hear how they sound too!

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#57859 - 04/03/03 05:34 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
In addition to the above helpful comments, you may or my not be aware that the KN6/KN7 have a built in 'Chord Finder' facility.
If you press Auto Play Chord's 'MODE' button and then the bottom right 'CHORD FINDER' the display will show you the fingering for dozens of different chord structures, major, minor, 7th, 9th, etc. together with inversions. Also, by pressing the button assigned to the 'Ear' symbol, you can actually hear these chords.

------------------
Willum

Beat me to it again Alec - by one minute!

[This message has been edited by Bill Norrie (edited 04-03-2003).]
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57860 - 04/03/03 06:53 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Douglas Dean Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 554
Loc: Prospect Heights IL USA
Hay Willum, Alec is fast!!!

Grandpa Doug
_________________________
Grampa Doug

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#57861 - 04/03/03 05:36 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Arthur R. Jacobs Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Alma, Michigan, 48801 USA
Your post on chord construction is very well done Chuck, even I, an old beginner can understand it. Thank you. ARJ
_________________________
ARJ

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#57862 - 04/03/03 06:27 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
lrngkybrd Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Queen Creek, Arizona
Thank you all for your help. And thank you, Chuck, for the very thorough explaination. I will certainly check out the sites you have recommended to me.

I went to a site called BluesBox Virtual Piano Chords. Visiting this site made question why C7 and C9 were the same. When I entered in C7 it displayed the notes I should play on the keyboard. I then changed to C9 and the keyboard stayed the same. It didn't change at all from C7 to C9, that's why I thought it was the same. I know about the chord finder on the KN6500. I just wasn't sure if Cadd9 was the same as C9.

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#57863 - 04/03/03 11:55 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Arthur,

Thank you for your kind remarks. Like you, I am a beginner, but unlike you, I'm not old. I'm 73 years young! Ha Ha Glad you appreciated the talk about chord construction. Again, thanks for showing your appreciation.

Lrngkybrd,

Cadd9 and C9 are DIFFERENT chords. Cadd9 is exactly what it implies i.e., a basic C chord (C, E, G,) with the note D added. It is not a dominant chord. You DO NOT include the b7 (B flat) in a Cadd9 chord. Play both Cadd9 and C9 and you will hear the harmonic difference.

Chuck

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#57864 - 04/04/03 01:32 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
Quote:
Originally posted by lrngkybrd:
When I entered in C7 it displayed the notes I should play on the keyboard. I then changed to C9 and the keyboard stayed the same. It didn't change at all from C7 to C9, that's why I thought it was the same.


that's why you should switch to pianist mode and then you'll see and hear the differences between 9th and added 9th even with auto accompaniment. By the time you've extended the chords beyond 9ths it becomes more difficult to actually hear the differences in auto accompaniment, particularly with fast chord changes.

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#57865 - 04/04/03 07:37 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
RW Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 344
Loc: NJ, USA
Question (to Chuck)

What is the difference between a C2 and a Cadd9?

I can tell you when I play a C2 I generally do not play the 3rd. IE I woulc play C,D and G.

I'm also very curious about Suspended chords. I have seen for a long time chords like Csus or Asus then when I was using a software package and tried to enter Asus as the chord name it errored and sais Asus was not a valid chord and it gave me a l;ist of valid chords to choose from and Asus4 was there. I was wanting to play the 4th note in the scale so I choose Asus4. So what's the deal with that? Whats the diff between Asus and Asus4. Or does Asus imply the 4th?

Thanks in advance.

Bob
<><

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#57866 - 04/04/03 08:50 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bob,

I have never heard of a C2 chord. The notes C,D, and G you are playing and which you call a C2 chord is very likely the first inversion of a Gsus4 chord. The notes for Gsus4 are G, C, and D with the G note being the root. Go to your keyboard and play G, C, and D first, then play C, D, and place the G note on top (the way you play it) and you will hear the sound of a Gsus4 in its first inversion.

What is the difference between a C2 chord and a Cadd9 chord? There is one significant difference. The Cadd9 chord is a major chord and your so-called C2 chord is a suspended chord. Let's see why.

You say you usually do not play the note E when you play your C2 chord. In a C chord, the note E is the third note as we discussed above. The third note of any scale determines whether the scale is major or minor. If you play a C scale and use the note E, you are playing a major scale. If you lower the E note a semi-tone (half tone) and play Eb as you play the scale, you are playing the C minor scale. So the tonality of a scale is affected by the treatment of the third note i.e., playing E natural or Eb.

Now, to play a suspended chord, you play the root note, the fourth note, and the fifth note of a scale. If you play Csus4 for example, the notes would be C, F, and G. Notice the third note (E) is not played. If you added the third note you would have a discordant sound because you are trying to mix a major chord and a suspended chord.
In the case of your C2 chord, you are in fact leaving out the note B of a G major chord and substituting the note D which makes it a Gsus4 chord - not a C2 chord.

Suspended chords have the same effect as dominant chords in that they create tension in music and our ears require that tension to be resolved, hence, as an example, G7 is resolved to C major. A suspended chord will also require resolution to another chord, though not necessarily a major chord.

So Bob, to summarize, your C2 chord should, I suspect, be renamed Gsus4 regardless of the inversion you use. And the primary difference between your C2 chord and Cadd9 is that your C2 chord is a suspended chord and Cadd9 is a major chord.

I hope I have offered clear answers to your questions. If not, let me know.

Most Sincerely, Chuck

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#57867 - 04/04/03 09:00 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bob,

I neglected to answer one other question you posed. You asked what the difference was between Asus and Asus4 and does the designation "Asus" imply Asus4. Asus does indeed imply Asus4. May I suggest you sit at your keyboard and play the notes G, B, and D (G major), then play G, C, and D (Gsus4), then play G major again and you will hear the difference clearly, will feel the tension when you play the suspended chord, and the sense of relief or rest when you play the G major chord again.

Chuck

[This message has been edited by Chuck Piper (edited 04-04-2003).]

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#57868 - 04/04/03 09:35 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
ogre Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 242
Loc: UK
Hi Chuck,
Your'e a beginner??? What are we going to hear from you when you become an expert?
This has been a fascinating thread and your very clear exposition has taught me a lot. I confess that I know little about music theory/chord construction. I just look at the chord symbols, go to my trusty chord chart and play. After a few years, most chords were memorised. A couple of years back I got interested in alternative/substitute chords and discovered two books with around 200 "converted" tunes done by Dick Hyman (published by Ekay Music Inc) and one book by Champ Champagne (pub. by Hal Leonard). These substitute chords add considerable interest to the music. If anyone knows of other published volumes of music on same subject, please let me know.

Congratulations to all who contributed to this thread. Great stuff.

Ogre
_________________________
Peter

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#57869 - 04/04/03 10:50 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
RW Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 344
Loc: NJ, USA
Wow Thanks Chuck,
Very excellent answer. Yes it was clear. I see what you're saying exactly about the similarities between my so-called C2 and the Gsus4. But I have seen many times the actual chord of C2 or A2 or F2 or any chord for that matter right on sheet music. I use mainly sheet music that has piano/vocals/guitar or piano/vocals/chords, because I basically play the melody line and do my own bass playing and or mixed in improvisation over the correct melody.

But yeah, I've seen the C2 chord many times. Always the C is as well the bass note. Whenever the music calls for the chord C,D and G (in any inversion) and there's a G note as the bass (in the bass clef) I will almost always see the chord of Gsus or Gsus4 written above the chord. But whenever the bass note is C and not G, I almost always see C2 written above.

I clearly see what your mean about the diff between the so-called C2 and Cadd9th though. It's a matter of the 3rd. Thank you very much Chuck. You da man.

And thanks for the "sus" vrs the "sus4" explanation. You confirmed my suspisions.

Yeah I know about the sus leaving one desiring to hear the major chord afterwards. I think it's a really cool effect.

I was playing/learning a song last week with my Praise Team and it's in the key of G, but ends with... of all things.. a C2 (aka Gsus4 with a C bass). And it just ends that way. At first I thought the sheet music was wrong and I ask the Director about this and he said that's the way he wanted to end the song. It's like you leave the audience hanging... waiting... wanting more. It's a cool effect to pull off once in a while i think. Too much of that and it could annoying.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

Bob
<><

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#57870 - 04/04/03 11:48 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Bud Whipple Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 480
Loc: The Plantation, Leesburg, Flor...
Chuck, you've cleared up the C2 question for me, too. I've come across the C2 notation in music and didn't know what chord to use, because the C chord didn't do the job. Funny thing, my sister has played piano for more years than she will admit to and two of my nieces are recent college graduates with music backgrounds, and they didn't know what C2 was, either. One more piece of fog just lifted! Thank you, thank you.

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#57871 - 04/04/03 11:50 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Ogre,

Thank you for showing your appreciation. I'm glad you have enjoyed this discussion of chords. Perhaps I need to clarify why I say I am a beginner. I started taking keyboard lessons about a year and a half ago, so as far as a keyboard player is concerned, I still feel like a beginner. As a musician, however, I began music studies on the trombone at age 7 - 66 years ago. So I am no stranger to music - just to a keyboard.

You mentioned you have the Dick Hyman books. What a coincidence. I have them as well. Dick is a wonderful jazz pianist and so-called jazz harmonies are the harmonies I enjoy the most. I use many of Dick's chord substitutions when they suit my taste for harmony.


Hello Again Bob,

Thank you for showing your appreciation, too. I am wondering where the C2 chord designation came from. I've never come across it in any of the music I have in my library including busker books. Strange. C2 is not mentioned in any of my harmony books either, nor have I run across it in my 66 years of reading and playing music.

You spoke about unusual endings e.g., using the Gsus4 (aka C2) chord as the final chord in a piece of music and when you questioned it, your director said that is the way he wanted it to end. You know, there are rules for harmony, but no rules to govern how you end a song. I think it is nice occasionally to leave the audience hanging with an unusual ending. In that regard, I haven't used that approach in my music - yet - but it is an intriguing thought and you can bet I'll experiment with it. Thanks for making me aware. As Ogre said, it adds interest to the music.

A thought just occurred to me. I wonder if the C2 designation is intended for guitar or ukelele players to tell them to play a C chord in the #2 position on the fretboard. I can't imagine anyone interpreting a C2 to mean a suspended 4th chord. Amazing.

You two take care,

Chuck

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#57872 - 04/04/03 12:02 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bud,

We were typing at the same time. You're welcome! Glad to be of help. Chords and their progressions is a fascinating area of study. Chord progression permutations are almost limitless. I just happen to have a deep interest in harmony and what makes it tick and if I can share something you find useful, so much the better. I guess I am in a way repaying some of you for the many happy hours I've spent reading and learning from all of you. Bebop began this adventure and bless his "pea pickin' heart" (as Tennessee Ernie Ford used to say), it has been pure pleasure participating in this group of great people. We're scattered all over the globe, but we share a common bond - our keyboards and love of music - so we are together. Wonderful!

Take care, Bud.

Chuck

[This message has been edited by Chuck Piper (edited 04-04-2003).]

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#57873 - 04/04/03 01:41 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi Chuck, Just a thought maybe C2 is actually C+9 since it uses the same named notes as C+9 (ie C,D,E,G )albeit with the note D an octave down - the '2' being the second note in the scale. I use this chord quite often and it has quite a pleasant sound. Interestingly, the KN6/7 actually shows this combination of notes as C+9

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57874 - 04/04/03 02:37 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bill,

You are quite right. The notes C, D, E, and G do form a Cadd9 chord. However, Bob was saying he did not play the E note when he played his C2 chord, therefore it cannot be a Cadd9 because the third (E) is missing. Cadd9 is a major chord and the third is required to make it so. Remove the third (E) from the set of notes and the chord then becomes a sus4 chord of some description and in this case it is a Gsus4 if I'm not mistaken. Let me hasten to add that I am not an expert when it comes to harmony and chord formation and I don't pretend to be. Perhaps someone else can shed a different light on this discussion and if so, I will learn in the process.

Thanks for your input, Bill. As the Tesco slogan says, "Every little bit helps!"

Take care,

Chuck

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#57875 - 04/06/03 10:41 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
ogre Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 242
Loc: UK
"Every little bit helps." Thought that was what the actress said to the Bishop.

Ogre
_________________________
Peter

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#57876 - 04/07/03 02:26 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
The C2 is surely a suspended chord.

a suspension is a note held over from a previous harmony. For example, to get to F you may go Bb (F, Bb, D,) to C sus 2 (G, D, E,) to C (G, C, E) to F (A, C, F). Thus the D note is suspended from the Bb chord to the C Sus 2.

With the suspended fourth there is almost the same thing: Bb (Bb, D, F), to C7 Sus 4 (G, Bb, C, F) to C7 (G, Bb, C, E) to F (A, C, F). Here there is a strong pull from the F to the E, and then a strong pull (actually the strongest musical pull) from leading note to tonic (E to F) and from the minor seventh of the dominant 7th chord to the mediant of the tonic (Bb to A).

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#57877 - 04/07/03 03:12 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3195
Loc: Norway
Very interesting reading in this tread....
Myself, I'm not any good at this stuff, but I've found a good tool
to help me out when struggling to find where to put the fingers to
make it sound reasonable right.
It is called WinChord and works nice on the PC, even with Win XP.
For those of us who might need a little help, it is downloadable
from my Website at the Progs page. No install needed, just run it
from the folder after unzip. (Only 38 kb)
I don't remeber where I first found it, but I'm pretty sure it is
freeware
Happy playing
GJ
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#57878 - 04/07/03 05:16 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
if it's Will Dallimore's program it is freeware, Gunnar... I might even have sent it to you

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#57879 - 04/07/03 05:41 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
You'll find Winchord here : http://www.eveshamdallimores.fsnet.co.uk/free_software.htm


------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57880 - 04/07/03 07:08 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3195
Loc: Norway
Good, it might as well be a newer version
than the one I got.
GJ

Yes, it is a newer version, so I've updated
and even placed a link stright to the site
where it is to find.

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 04-07-2003).]
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#57881 - 04/07/03 07:43 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
it became relatively less useful, only in the sense you needed the pc switched on to use it, back when we had the chord finder introduced in the kn6000, I suppose.

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#57882 - 04/08/03 02:23 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Good Morning Alec,

Your next to last post in which you discuss the Csus2 chord forced me to put my thinking cap on and do some reaearch, hence my delay in responding. Please understand I am not being argumentative or disputing your harmonic logic. I'm merely trying to contribute positively, and hopefully constructively, to this thread which began with KN6Guy's question regarding the C2 chord he was playing.

I have searched my two books on harmony and nowhere is a Csus2 chord mentioned, let alone discussed. I have a book entitled "7,488 Keyboard Chords", another entitled "The Complete Encyclopedia of Chords", and still another, "The Definitive Chord Book for Jazz and Popular Organ", and none mention a Csus2 chord. It is certainly not a commonly used chord in harmony and it is possible it is a misnomer.

This will be a bit long-winded and I apologize to our readers for that, but there is no other way to say what I believe to be the case regarding the so-called Csus2 chord.

It is true in harmony that ANY note can be suspended (sustained) from one chord to the next chord without breaking the rules of harmony. However, the word "suspension" implies something left hanging that needs to be resolved (released). It is a note that creates tension.

In your example of a Csus2 chord you cite the notes G,D, and E. When determining whether a chord is a suspension or not, one must first look for a root note. All suspended chords include the root note of the chord name. In the case of your Csus2, there is no C note, therefore it is unlikely those notes comprise a Csus2 chord. I believe those notes are in fact the notes of an E minor chord. In your example of a C7sus4 chord, the root note C is played, hence it is a legitimate suspension of a C chord - in this case a C7sus4 chord.

You remarked, "The C2 is surely a suspended chord." I concede the "sound" of the notes G,D, and E, when played, create the same sound effect (tension) as a suspended chord when played in isolation, i.e., without reference to any other chord in a progression. The problem lies in naming the notes G,D, and E as a Csus2 chord. Let us consider for a moment the Csus4 chord and its notes C,F, and G. The rules of harmony dictate that to be a legitimate suspended chord, the suspended note must resolve within the chord being played, not upon a new chord. Therefore, in the case of a Csus4 chord, a C chord is being played and the F is resolved to E.

In the case of your Csus2 chord (notes G,D, and E), each note forms the root note of a chord and none of the chords formed use the note C. That is why I suspect the Csus2 designation is a misnomer and the notes are in fact part of a legitimate chord - in this case, I believe, an Eminor or Eminor7. When you play G,D, and E (Eminor), then play the note C, you are changing chords (moving from Eminor to C major). Thus the three notes cannot be a Csus2 chord by rule and definition.

I don't know if this discussion sheds any more light on the subject or not, and again I say, if anyone can add more to what has been said already, please do. I love to learn.

We have a beautiful sunny day here in the U.K. and the thought of being on a golf course is overwhelming, so that is where I am headed. I hope everyone has a sunny day.

Best Regards to All, Chuck

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#57883 - 04/08/03 03:47 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
John North Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Alfreton, Derbyshire, England
Chuck Phhhheeeeeewwwwwwww.

After that posting, I hope you're wearing your 'cords' on the golf course

John

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#57884 - 04/08/03 06:08 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
The Csus2 chord implies that the 2nd (the D note) is suspended from a previous harmony. Thus the example is just to show how it can happen and that it can sound ok. Ultimately all of this stuff has its origins in part writing and over years rules have been written and broken and re-written. Bach said "no consecutive fifths or octaves between any parts". I doubt that the average Big Band would get through 8 measures with that rule...

It is correct that a suspension is dissonant (ie: discordant, or unstable) and requires resolving. Of course the most discordant in the examples is the Bb in the dominant 7th (C7) resolving to the the third of the tonic (A note in the F chord). It's a similar effect to a suspension (just a stronger pull). The suspension could be held over a longer period, to create more tension, maybe even never resolving before the progression moves on.

I think your problem is assuming that the examples are for auto play chord. Of course (without writing it out in full) the root bass note is always assumed to be sounding. You are right of course that the whole basis of the harmony alters depending on the root. An example being that of the Tritone (the augmented 4th or diminished 5th) for example Bb and E. This makes the most dissonant or discordant of harmonic intervals which might be assumed to resolve to A and F (C7 to F), (assuming a bass note moving from C to F) In this case the Bb is the 7th of the dominant 7th harmony and the E the leading note. Change the first bass note to F# and this is very clearly F#7 which in a perfect cadence resolves to B (In this case it would be A# and E, the E now being the 7th of the dominant and the A# being the leading note (The 7th would fall to D#, the mediant of the tonic, and the A# would rise to the root of B).

But as to whether this chord (Csus2) is truly Em7... it cannot be because the root of the chord is... C. If it said Csus2/E then it could possibly be Em7 by another name. Especially that if you need to omit a note from a harmony the fifth is the safest to omit without altering the effect. But it says clearly Csus2, so this is a C chord. All this proves is that although chord symbols are very useful for speed reading and of course APC, they are a musical short hand.

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#57885 - 04/08/03 09:57 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Alec and John,

What a beautiful day we have had, eh? I didn't wear cords on the golf course, John. Sorry. Decided to leave them at home. All I thought about as I meandered peacefully and happily around the hills was how beautiful the scenery is and how lucky I am to be there enjoying it.

Alec, thanks for your additional input on our chord discussion. Very well written. I appreciated your explanation and I learn in the process and that is what I value a great deal. I have one question. You say the notes we have been discussing are in fact a Csus2 chord because the root of the chord has to be C. So what you are really saying is the note C is IMPLIED but not played when the notes G,D, and E are played and the IMPLICATION of the note C makes G,D, and E a Csus2. Is that correct?

Don't know what all this has to do with the price of eggs in China as the saying goes, but it has been a good discussion. You two take care.

Chuck

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#57886 - 04/08/03 10:33 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
cees Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 533
Loc: The Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Piper:
...
Don't know what all this has to do with the price of eggs in China as the saying goes ...
Chuck

You hit the nail on the head, Chuck. The price of eggs in China raises, for the chicken-branche,here in The Netherlands, suffers a lot because there is a deadly virus among poultry. It is hot news here. Millions of chicken had to be eliminated. So we have to import eggs ...from China!!??. And we, poor keyboardplayers, have to pay more for our ham and eggs. So there is now, you started it, a connections between music and eggs.
Just kidding
Cees.
(P.S. Thanks for the learning contribution to you all)
_________________________
Cees wink
Webmaster of Technics KN7000 Keso-songs, Keso-Café and Keso-Jukebox. You're welcome to visit http://www.keso.nl

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#57887 - 04/08/03 11:48 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Cees,

Are you telling me an uitsmijter will cost more when I come to Holland? I ate lots of uitsmijter meals when I was living in your beautiful country in the 60s. Also loved loempia. I had a favorite restaurant in Zeist that served loempia and it was delicious. I hope your chicken population gets well soon because apparently the price of eggs in China is going up!

Goeden Avond Mijn Vriend,

Chuck

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#57888 - 04/08/03 01:08 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
cees Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 533
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi Chuck, it is a small world, isn't it. Suppose in the surrounding of Soesterberg, looking at your profile?? Don't worry about the prices of China-eggs, mail me when you come to Holland, I treat you on a large uitsmijter, while you explain me how about the chords
Tot ziens Cees

Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Piper:
Hi Cees, .. Are you telling me an uitsmijter will cost more when I come to Holland? ..
Chuck
_________________________
Cees wink
Webmaster of Technics KN7000 Keso-songs, Keso-Café and Keso-Jukebox. You're welcome to visit http://www.keso.nl

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#57889 - 04/08/03 02:42 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Cees,

Yes, I was at Soesterberg from July 1962 to July 1966. My wife, children, and I travelled all over your lovely country and met so many wonderful people. Our Dutch neighbors in Soesdijk were terrific. I am still in touch with their eldest daughter who married an American from Soesterberg. We chat by e-mail regularly. She and her family are in Louisiana. A cousin of mine is buried in the American cemetery at Margraten. I thought the world of him. He was killed on the last day of World War II. Tragic!

Thank you for your offer of an uitsmijter. It would be a great pleasure to meet and talk with you. Who knows, maybe one day I will be able to make the trip, and if I do I will contact you beforehand.

Tot ziens van mij ook,

Chuck

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#57890 - 04/08/03 04:32 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
We go round the houses in these types of discussions and hopefully learn something along the way. Not to lose focus on the original point and to try and address Chuck's point, the "implied root" depends on the application, outside of apc you might play it under the chords e.g. Bb, D, F on Bb > G, D, E on C resolving to G, C, E on C > A, C, F on F. The key point is the D suspended from the Bb to the C, and really nothing to do with Gsus4.

Way up the thread the original question was what is the difference between C2 (Csus2) and Cadd9. The answer to that question is the only difference is the distance of the 2nd from the root, the notes are the same (e.g CDEG or CEG oct+D). But you can see the note progression could fit by inversion.

However auto play chord works only by note matching, it does not vary the harmony according to inversion generally, as would be the case listening to the piano; apc does not recognise the relative positions of the notes. Thus for apc chord recognition Cadd2 and Cadd9 would be the same.

Each manufacturer has his own system for apc and the Technics system (especially Pianist Mode) is more based on what people play, than on a theory book. For example open voicings of 6/9 chords, and especially 13th chords. In this case, people play a C13 as Bb, E and A (the root is truly implied). Some theory books would give you C, E, G, Bb, D, F and A. Some other products will only recognise the 13th if you play a 7th underneath it. In the case of the Technics system it is reality which is the guide.

Even so, the 13th is ambiguous. Because of the keys keyboard players generally use, the notes E, Bb and D# are pretty much seen as C7#9 (or C7+9). But this is the same grouping (intervals) as the C13, but in the key of F#. So try setting up Pianist Mode, play E, Bb and D# with your right hand. The screen will say F#13 (which is of course correct).

Now with your left hand play a C note (eg: an octave lower than the C under the E in your right hand) Watch the display change to C7#9. Do the same with C13 (Bb, E, A) and then play an F# bass note. The screen will show F#7#9. Then for the hell of it change the bass note to G...Gm6/9.
Chords are indeed ambiguous, and sometimes it is easier to write a complex chord another way. The Technics system may be more capable than most of keeping up with what you do, but certainly in the case of Sus2 the absence of a root from your APC "friendly" chord will cause problems, because the keyboard can't in this case guess which chord you mean (especially because some teaching systems omit the fifth from the harmony to make it 'easier' to play).

So... you can get the Sus 2 'sound' by playing C,D,E,G. The screen will say Add 9. As an example, select 8 Beat Rock, V4 and Mute everything except Bass and Accomp 1. Set the tempo to about 80 and play each for one bar: Bb, Cadd9 (C,D,E,G: our Csus2 alternative), C, F. You'll hear the D note suspended from the Bb chord, and then resolving to C before ending on the tonic of F.

I suppose you could say there can be a big difference between piano type lead sheet chord description and actual apc implementation, and also a big difference in how different manufacturers will interpret the notes you play in apc.

best regards,

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#57891 - 04/08/03 11:35 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Good Morning Alec,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation. I, for one, appreciate it very much. Being relatively new to keyboards means I am learning more and more about apc, pianist mode etc., in terms of the board's designed capability to recognize chords. I remember Scott Yee's dilemma when he was debating which keyboard to buy. His two major concerns were chord recognition in apc and pianist modes and the voice harmonizer. It just points up what you have said above - keyboard manufacturers use different methods for chord recognition. For me, I am just happy with the sounds produced by my KN when I play any given chord as I play my music and that is my bottom line.

Thanks again, Alec and take care.

Chuck

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#57892 - 04/09/03 02:37 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
one of the most interesting threads for a long, long while.

Another bright sunny day! Time to get the old irons out again maybe?

happy putting, Chuck

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#57893 - 04/09/03 08:35 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
RW Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 344
Loc: NJ, USA
Wow. what a really cool conversation. Loaded with interesting facts about chords. Thank you both technicsplayer and Chuck. So technicsplayer, then the only diff between a C2 and Cadd9th, is in the Cadd9th, the 2nd note (or 9th) is played on top. Or rather, the highest note in the chord. Other than that they are the same.

I always seen them as the same. Generally when I play music, I'm playing from what I call a "lead sheet". Maybe it's a standard. Bascially on this will be the melody and the chords written out over the melody line. Once in a while there may be a few added phrases between during vocal rests. So when I play (in a band) using these "lead sheets", I have lots of freedom to improvise. I play any inversion I "feel" like playing of the listed chord. But often I use the melody line for my highest note (but not always). Anyway, I've just gotten into a habit of playing with the left hand C, G, C for the bass and C, D, G with the right hand for my C2. Leaving out the 3rd on my right hand. And now that you mention it, I think I've only seen the Cadd9 when the D note is the melodic note of that chord.

Thanks again you guys. This has been a very imformative thread. I must confess though I don't use one of those arrangers with auto chord play. I'm not even sure what the "Technics Discussion" board is for. I simply found this thread by checking "new postings as of today" a while back and seen the posting subject and was curious so I read it.

Wild.

Thanks again.
Bob
<><

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#57894 - 04/09/03 10:09 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
exactly... on a piano you might tend to play the root position upper D most of the time depending on the harmony either side, because it most reflects the melodic line correctly.

In auto backing it is a stretch so you play the inversion because it's much easier and closer together and apc recognises either, and mostly you are highlighting the melodic line in the right hand at the same time anyway, whether in fingered or pianist mode.

Our apc chord finder built into the machines has "typical" positions highlighted for chords for this very reason, as well as the recognised inversions.

it was a good thread, thanks to Chuck's time, effort and inquisitive open mind...

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#57895 - 04/09/03 10:27 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Walt Meyer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 437
Loc: Silver City, NM USA
Hi everybody,
What a great thread - thanks "lrngkybrd" for starting the whole thing. How the keyboard recognizes chords is something that one normally wouldn't know - thank you Alec for all of the explanations.
I am an old organ player and I normally would play 3 or 4 finger chords with the left hand and hold one note of that chord for counter melody while beating the rest of the notes for rhythm (along with the pedals). I would use chord inversions that were convenient and would keep all chords centered around middle C in order to keep left hand movement to a minumum. This of course generated many sustained chords without even thinking about it.
This technique which is common and works well on the organ does not work entirely well on the keyboard. An example is playing a C6 where the notes would be G A C E. This is recognized as Amin7 and of course the sound, the bass line, and the technichord harmony is entirely wrong.
This old habit, which is automatic when I play, is sure hard to break. It requires a lot of "jumping around" to always play the chord in the root position.
I wonder if anyone else has this problem?
Walt

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#57896 - 04/09/03 01:00 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Alec,

Yep. Time to get the irons out and that is exactly what I did after my music lesson this morning. Played nine holes and hit the ball everywhere but where I was aiming (what's new?), but enjoyed the sun and the walk.

I feel as you do in that this has been a very interesting thread. Perhaps you will read my latest post on the other thread related to this topic and let me know your feelings regarding the initiation of other related topics (threads).

Thanks for the happy putting wishes. That was about the only part of my game that didn't backfire. Oh well. That's golf.

Take care.

Chuck

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#57897 - 04/09/03 01:16 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Good Evening Walt:

Yes, I use chords in the root position a lot for the reason you cite i.e., the auto bass line is incorrect when using some inversions in the APC mode. If I am playing organ on my KN6000, the pedals are providing the bass (obviously) and I have the auto bass turned off. Having that versatility (auto bass or pedal bass) is a real advantage I think. I have the option of playing either depending on what I feel is appropriate for the music I am playing. I would think it is indeed a hard habit to break when you want to play chords in the root position after playing them for years on an organ in their inverted form. I don't have that problem fortunately because I have learned to use root forms and inverted forms from the beginning. I often mix them while playing a tune as long as the sound suits me.

Take care.

Chuck

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#57898 - 04/09/03 02:20 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
I agree, it sounds like Walt should maybe plug some pedals into his 7k, switch off apc, use the organ tabs with keyboard split and he could play just like he used to on the organ?

---------------------------------------------

You could step record all your chord changes first and thus make the left hand completely independent of the chord recognition - chord step record can be incredibly fast, literally preparing a whole song in seconds once you are used to it.

---------------------------------------------

However there is another solution that preserves 'live' playing and requires a little practice but not as much effort as re-learning all your chord positions, and that is to use the footswitch set to apc hold, particularly in pianist mode.

Here you can play what you like in the left hand without inappropriately changing the harmony, just releasing the pedal when wanting to change to the correct chord at the place that you want

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#57899 - 04/10/03 11:03 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Walt Meyer Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 437
Loc: Silver City, NM USA
Hello all,
I have a set of Roland MIDI bass pedals which I use for straight organ playing.
The setup works very well and with the combination of split keyboard, wonderful KN7000 organ voices, and occaisional use of Technichord, I have the best of two worlds.
I have since sold my Technics organ because it paled in comparison to the Kn7000. The only requirement is that you must have a good external speaker system to reproduce good organ pedal bass stops.
Alec - I hadn't thought about using the APC hold feature so I will try it, but I think the best long term solution is to learn to use the root position when using APC. I always play "live" so I guess I have to learn a few new tricks. Like I said, old habits are hard to break.
Thanks,
Walt

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#57900 - 04/10/03 01:11 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi All.
This thread has certainly started something and I think I'm going to have to print it all out to make it easier reading.
One of the chords which does need the use of the correct bass note is the Diminished Chord as the same four notes can be used for
four different keys but only sound right when used with the correct bass note.
This is where bass pedals add that extra dimension and I'm looking forward to the delivery of my new 17 note pedalboard.
Regards
Pete B

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#57901 - 04/11/03 02:30 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
Quote:
Originally posted by Walt Meyer:

Alec - I hadn't thought about using the APC hold feature so I will try it, but I think the best long term solution is to learn to use the root position when using APC. I always play "live" so I guess I have to learn a few new tricks. Like I said, old habits are hard to break.
Thanks,
Walt


well, that is the total solution, because at the end of the day apc makes effectively a new instrument with different rules...

But thinking about it your 6th problem is probably one of the worst case scenarios, so learning root positions for these should help a great deal. I'd still try what pianist mode might offer though.

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#57902 - 04/11/03 02:52 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
waterschip Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Hi
Interesting thread to but I can't understand the dilema of Scot Yee and maybe others to buy a keyboard to get the right chords in the display screen. For me not such a theoretical man is the choice for a keyboard can it play all the notes of the chord and for most people who listened to it do they like the harmony they hear and do not have in mind ay that's a Csus2 combination.

rgds.
Willem

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#57903 - 04/11/03 03:04 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Willem,

I understand the point you are making and I think you are wrong to suggest Scott Yee opted for the Tyros because it displays chords in the form he prefers. Scott is an accomplished professional musician. Sound is what it is all about for Scott - not correct displays. His listeners cannot see his screen, only hear his renditions of music. It is SOUND that matters. Scott selected the Tyros because of its better jazz (altered)chord recognition capabilities in the APC mode when compard to the KN7000. At least that was my understanding when he was debating which keyboard would best suit his playing requirements.

Best Regards, Chuck

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#57904 - 04/11/03 08:58 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
BEBOP Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 3769
Loc: San Jose, California
I am going to lock this topic now as it is getting too long.
Chuck has started a new topic on this subject that is really a great topic for this forum. Thanks to all that have contributed. Let us keep it going for the benefit of all that will learn a great deal from your posts.
Best to all
Bebop


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