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#57854 - 04/02/03 07:06 PM Chord Knowledge/Theory
lrngkybrd Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Queen Creek, Arizona
I haven't written in a while, but I've got a question for you. I decided I was going to expand my knowledge of the keyboard and learn some new cords. I decided to learn al the chords with 9, for example, C9, B9, D9, etc. So I found a web site that had all these chords for me and I stared to write down which notes and I noticed that C7 & C9 are the same, B7 & B9 are the same and on and on. Needless to say this has me a little puzzled. Can someone explain this to me? Thanks.

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#57855 - 04/02/03 08:31 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
KeithB Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Melbourne AUSTRALIA
You on'll find some information (plus other) http://psrtutorial.com/Resources/R_ChordSecrets/R_Ch102/W12_9th/w12_9th.html
Keith

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#57856 - 04/03/03 12:41 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Good Morning from the UK!

I will try to shed some light on chords for you.

All scales, whether major, minor or other, contain seven notes. In the case of the C major scale, the notes are C-D-E-F-G-A-B. Those notes are also referred to as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. The basic C major chord is composed of three of those notes, namely the root or first note (C), the third note (E), and the fifth note (G). If you wish to play C6 you add the sixth note (A) to the three notes forming the basic chord. If you wish to play a C major 7 chord you add the seventh note (B) to the basic chord.

You asked why C7 and C9 are the same. C7 is a "dominant" chord. Dominant chords are formed by playing 1, 3, 5, and 7 with the 7th note played a semi-tone (half tone) lower. In the case of C7, the notes played would be C, E, G, and B flat, or 1, 3, 5, b7. Now, we said the C major scale is composed of the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, and B, or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. If we continue up the keyboard from the note B, the next note will be C again, or 8. Continuing on we come to D (9), E (10), F (11), G (12), and A (13).

We said C7 is a dominant chord. Adding a 9th, 11th, or 13th note to any chord is often referred to as "altering" the chord. Altered chords are most often found in the form of a dominant chord to which a 9th, 11th, or 13th note has been added. However, major and minor chords are also altered from time to time to achieve the harmony intended by the composer.

To sum up, a C7 chord is composed of the notes C, E, G, b7, and a C9 chord is composed of C, E, G, b7, and D (the 9th note). As you can see, the foundation of the C9 chord is a C7 chord that has been "altered" by adding the ninth note D. Play it on your keyboard and listen to the sound. Kind of jazzy eh?

If you want to play a C11, then play a C7 chord and add the 11th note (F). Likewise, to play a C13, play a C7 and add the 13th note (A).

Chords are also altered by playing the 9th, 11th, and 13th a semi-tone (half tone) lower or higher. For example, a C7 chord with an augmented 11th (the 11th note raised a semi-tone) would require that you play the basic C7 chord and add F#.

Finally, since all scales are mathematically derived, you can apply the formula 1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, and 13 to any scale by beginning with the root note and counting upwards. Try it and see. You will find that what I've explained applies to the B7 and B9 chords you mentioned and all dominant chords of the twelve major scales.

That is an explanantion of chord construction. In practice, you would not play all of the notes of the chord because we don't have enough fingers and the stretch from root note to 13th note (for example)is impossible (for me at least). Altered chords are usually voiced (played) using the root note (1), the third note (3), and the flatted seventh (b7) in the left hand and the ninth or other added notes are played with the right hand.

I hope I have answered your question in a way that is easy to understand. We could get into scale construction, i.e., tone, tone, semi-tone etc. and intervals and the list of harmony considerations goes on and on. Countless books have been written on the subject. Your question concerned dominant and altered chords and I trust you know now why a C7 and C9 chord are alike.

Take care.

Chuck

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#57857 - 04/03/03 01:12 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
John North Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Alfreton, Derbyshire, England
An interesting site for chords of all types including inversions is:- http://www.cumpas.co.uk/piano.php
John

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#57858 - 04/03/03 05:33 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
I don't know which site said C7 and C9 were the same notes, but if you want to investigate the chords just go to the mode page and press chord finder.

switch to pianist, and then work along from 7ths to the various added 9ths. Switch the inversion to root every time and it is very clear in the display how extended chords are constructed - and you can hear how they sound too!

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#57859 - 04/03/03 05:34 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
In addition to the above helpful comments, you may or my not be aware that the KN6/KN7 have a built in 'Chord Finder' facility.
If you press Auto Play Chord's 'MODE' button and then the bottom right 'CHORD FINDER' the display will show you the fingering for dozens of different chord structures, major, minor, 7th, 9th, etc. together with inversions. Also, by pressing the button assigned to the 'Ear' symbol, you can actually hear these chords.

------------------
Willum

Beat me to it again Alec - by one minute!

[This message has been edited by Bill Norrie (edited 04-03-2003).]
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#57860 - 04/03/03 06:53 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Douglas Dean Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 554
Loc: Prospect Heights IL USA
Hay Willum, Alec is fast!!!

Grandpa Doug
_________________________
Grampa Doug

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#57861 - 04/03/03 05:36 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Arthur R. Jacobs Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Alma, Michigan, 48801 USA
Your post on chord construction is very well done Chuck, even I, an old beginner can understand it. Thank you. ARJ
_________________________
ARJ

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#57862 - 04/03/03 06:27 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
lrngkybrd Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Queen Creek, Arizona
Thank you all for your help. And thank you, Chuck, for the very thorough explaination. I will certainly check out the sites you have recommended to me.

I went to a site called BluesBox Virtual Piano Chords. Visiting this site made question why C7 and C9 were the same. When I entered in C7 it displayed the notes I should play on the keyboard. I then changed to C9 and the keyboard stayed the same. It didn't change at all from C7 to C9, that's why I thought it was the same. I know about the chord finder on the KN6500. I just wasn't sure if Cadd9 was the same as C9.

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#57863 - 04/03/03 11:55 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Arthur,

Thank you for your kind remarks. Like you, I am a beginner, but unlike you, I'm not old. I'm 73 years young! Ha Ha Glad you appreciated the talk about chord construction. Again, thanks for showing your appreciation.

Lrngkybrd,

Cadd9 and C9 are DIFFERENT chords. Cadd9 is exactly what it implies i.e., a basic C chord (C, E, G,) with the note D added. It is not a dominant chord. You DO NOT include the b7 (B flat) in a Cadd9 chord. Play both Cadd9 and C9 and you will hear the harmonic difference.

Chuck

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