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#511251 - 10/08/25 10:03 AM
Re: Creating Poly Rhythm Effects with YAMAHA & KETRON
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5470
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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The Audio format used by KETRON is not proprietary - we use WAV files (44.100Hz/16-bit). Thanks, I would imagine that all audio ROM drum loops in arrangers come with the same copyright restrictions that also apply to their ROM sounds and the ROM styles...
You can use them for musical purposes, but you can’t use them to create competing audio products. In other words, if you copy the samples and then use them to create a competing sampled audio product (say for instance a software drum machine that uses Korg's latest PA5X drum kits and their styles) you are likely infringing copyright.
But if you sample those same kits and styles to create something for your own use ONLY, it likely comes under 'fair use' laws. Mostly it comes down to money..!
The situation might be more flexible with a LONG discontinued product, especially if the company that produced it went belly up. But most of the time if it's sounds from a reasonably recent keyboard (or software ROMpler) I wouldn't recommend sampling it bit for bit and trying to sell those samples or loops.
Sampling synths is a bit of a different case, because you're not duplicating the exact synth engine, just recording one of millions of possible sounds. But copy a workstation's raw ROM for a commercial product, I'd run that past a competent lawyer first! All quite valid points, however I was wondering if it was like the Wersi, which as it uses standard REX files means you are not limited to what's onboard, or what the manufacture is prepared to produce for you. Bill The Audio format used by KETRON is not proprietary - we use WAV files (44.100Hz/16-bit). Thanks, Thankyou Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#511252 - 10/08/25 10:06 AM
Re: Creating Poly Rhythm Effects with YAMAHA & KETRON
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14492
Loc: NW Florida
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Does the Ketron use sliced audio, or are the loops time-stretched or -squeezed in their entirety?
One thing I used to like was that ReCycle used to only timestretch the tail of the slice automatically, leaving the transient at the beginning usually untouched. Depending on software, of course. But I remember being able to slow loops down quite a bit without smearing the attacks.
Without the full power of a modern computer doing the task, most arrangers that I've listened to that can slowdown loops introduce some pretty obvious artifacts in less than 10bpm of change. Speeding things UP doesn't have as bad an effect, but 20bpm is usually pretty noticeable.
I'm still a big believer in better drumkits rather than audio loops. Once you get a kit with round robins and 16 or more velocity layers, and a decent drum room impulse on it, it gets VERY hard to distinguish from live drums, and you COMPLETELY do away with the main loop problems. Most modern drum VSTi's are hard to tell apart from loops, but the MIDI file playing it can be sped up or slowed down with ZERO artifacts , and different drums can easily be swapped in and out.
Personally, I think we need a couple more generations of CPU's before arrangers can manipulate audio in realtime with the same quality as a Melodyne or Waves Soundshifter. And even those aren't as transparent as an SMF playing a good drum VSTi...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#511255 - 10/08/25 04:45 PM
Re: Creating Poly Rhythm Effects with YAMAHA & KETRON
[Re: Diki]
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Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: Middletown, DE
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Does the Ketron use sliced audio, or are the loops time-stretched or -squeezed in their entirety?
One thing I used to like was that ReCycle used to only timestretch the tail of the slice automatically, leaving the transient at the beginning usually untouched. Depending on software, of course. But I remember being able to slow loops down quite a bit without smearing the attacks.
Without the full power of a modern computer doing the task, most arrangers that I've listened to that can slowdown loops introduce some pretty obvious artifacts in less than 10bpm of change. Speeding things UP doesn't have as bad an effect, but 20bpm is usually pretty noticeable.
I'm still a big believer in better drumkits rather than audio loops. Once you get a kit with round robins and 16 or more velocity layers, and a decent drum room impulse on it, it gets VERY hard to distinguish from live drums, and you COMPLETELY do away with the main loop problems. Most modern drum VSTi's are hard to tell apart from loops, but the MIDI file playing it can be sped up or slowed down with ZERO artifacts , and different drums can easily be swapped in and out.
Personally, I think we need a couple more generations of CPU's before arrangers can manipulate audio in realtime with the same quality as a Melodyne or Waves Soundshifter. And even those aren't as transparent as an SMF playing a good drum VSTi... KETRON (in EVENT) uses all 3 audio parts mentioned above. The Event has 4 drum tracks (Midi, Audio [Live drum which is a loop], and 2 Groove tracks (time stretched). The Audya and SD9 Pro used 3 (Audio, Midii and Groove) and SD7 used Groove and Midi.
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#511258 - 10/09/25 01:49 AM
Re: Creating Poly Rhythm Effects with YAMAHA & KETRON
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5470
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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Does the Ketron use sliced audio, or are the loops time-stretched or -squeezed in their entirety?
One thing I used to like was that ReCycle used to only timestretch the tail of the slice automatically, leaving the transient at the beginning usually untouched. Depending on software, of course. But I remember being able to slow loops down quite a bit without smearing the attacks.
Without the full power of a modern computer doing the task, most arrangers that I've listened to that can slowdown loops introduce some pretty obvious artifacts in less than 10bpm of change. Speeding things UP doesn't have as bad an effect, but 20bpm is usually pretty noticeable.
I'm still a big believer in better drumkits rather than audio loops. Once you get a kit with round robins and 16 or more velocity layers, and a decent drum room impulse on it, it gets VERY hard to distinguish from live drums, and you COMPLETELY do away with the main loop problems. Most modern drum VSTi's are hard to tell apart from loops, but the MIDI file playing it can be sped up or slowed down with ZERO artifacts , and different drums can easily be swapped in and out.
Personally, I think we need a couple more generations of CPU's before arrangers can manipulate audio in realtime with the same quality as a Melodyne or Waves Soundshifter. And even those aren't as transparent as an SMF playing a good drum VSTi... One of the biggest differences between Wersi OAS & OAX was the move to a 64bit system thus giving way more opportunities. (OAS came out in 2000 when 32bit was the norm) This improved the OAX Real Drums as you mentioned above, whereas if you altered the tempo 2 much on OAS, gaps started appearing between the drums as time stretch was not available. I believe Brett Wales uses the Tootracks drum VST for most of his drum tracks these days. (Personally I have always liked Addictive Drums) If you look at You Tube videos on Wersi OAX, a lot of them utilise the VST host to enhance what is already there. (According to the latest update Kontakt 8 has also been integrated into OAX, but it doesn't tell you much about it (I will have a deep dive next week at the Extravaganza as the main programmer is usually there). When you consider the R & D team at Wersi consist of one full time and 3 part time personnel, they do a great job considering most of the arranger manufactures have large teams in multiple countries. (Updates are also usually free, with only one cost update in over 10 years (V3.00) with plenty of updates yet to come) Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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