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#508289 - 05/16/23 04:19 AM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Bernie9]
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Originally Posted By Bernie9
I think both styles and backing tracks have their place. I use both, depending on the venue. For the good old music of the senior set, I use styles that I can change to my liking. However, if I want to be somewhat relevant in a younger crowd, I will add backing tracks and play and sing over them. It is one thing to put your stamp on a song you play well, but another to perform a song specific arrangement that is merely recognizable. In other words, which method produces the best results.


Hi Bernie, pity Pa4x didn’t have this function

Qui Robinez over on Korg forums has been creating some great video clips.

Makes using midi files for backing, very versatile.

https://youtu.be/SURtgtsGT68


Korg Pa5X: create song specific styles with midi files

00:00 example
00:18 introducing this powerful feature
01:00 loading midi file: Tequila
01:19 how to use the marker system
06:44 how to fix low quality midi file loop points
08:42 demo of a midi file used as a song style
12:01 save the song
12:31 second midi as style example: Sweet Sixteen blues
15:13 outro
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#508318 - 05/24/23 12:49 PM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Henni]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
I think sokratis has overlooked something when it comes to extolling how real drums and real guitars and basses cannot be equaled with an arranger that uses MIDI…

You only have to look at computer VST’s like BFD or Superior Drums and the like to realize that MIDI drums can be as utterly convincing as a real drummer. It boils down to the performance of the player of the file, and how well the electronic kit is set up, and how well edited the capture is. Same with percussion. 99% of the realism comes from a real percussionist playing the MIDI parts, idiomatically correctly.

The same applies to rhythm guitar and bass parts. There are many VST’s for bass and guitar rhythm work that are utterly indistinguishable from audio. But they are, to all intents and purposes, doing EXACTLY what an arranger does. Just with a better soundset, and arguably better performances.

But what these give you over audio loops is that element of customization. Need a push in a spot in the rhythm that isn’t there on the audio? Piece of cake to edit the control track. Prefer a Strat to a Les Paul, a Marshall amp rather than a Fender? Piece of cake. Want a chord inversion not included in the audio loops? Most guitar VST’s allow you to select where on the neck the guitar is being played. Want the part played lighter? Done. Want to use an acoustic instead of an electric? Easy peasy!

Few of us have the skill to create an utterly convincing part from scratch. But most of us, in our antiquated conventional arrangers, can easily change the sound of a track and create something VERY different to the original. Not so the audio. It’s a Strat through a Fender, and forget trying to change it. And forget about hiring a studio guy to come in and do it with a Les Paul and a Marshall! Who’s got that kind of money?!

Basically, you either LOVE the audio style, or you’re screwed. Ten minutes on my Roland, I can turn a hard rock style into a gentle folk style. Brush drums, acoustic bass, acoustic guitars, acoustic piano. Done. Let me know how well that works on an Event!

As to pre-canned intros, the solution is, don’t use them! If they define the tune you have to follow them with, they only have one song you can play. The Roland has four intros. One yes, possibly derived from the song the style is in the vein of. One with changes but no defining solo. One shorter one that follows your chords. And a simple one bar count-in. That two to three that aren’t going to define the song. Hitting Intro1 and sitting on your hands while the arranger shows you up by playing better than you is so lazy!

Take away that defining intro, and you’d be surprised at how many songstyles can be used on other songs as long as they aren’t TOO locked into the original. Same with endings. And fills, if too song defining, aren’t THAT difficult to go into the style and change around a bit. Far easier than doing the entire drums from scratch…

Personally, I think that audio arrangers are a dead end. A temporary solution while VST equivalent features get added to MIDI arrangers. We’re already at the point of some arrangers’ guitar modes being quite good, good enough to fool the ear. Drums could benefit from a few more velocity levels and some room mic options, but that’s well within current technology to add.

I think a lot of sokratis’ enthusiasm for the potential expansion of audio styles created by the user is theoretical. I’d really like to hear how much time and possibly expense it took to change a factory style radically, or create one from scratch from a real user. I know how little time it takes on a MIDI arranger.

Very little.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508330 - 05/25/23 02:21 AM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Diki]
Sokratis 1974 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 789
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
Originally Posted By Diki
I think sokratis has overlooked something when it comes to extolling how real drums and real guitars and basses cannot be equaled with an arranger that uses MIDI…

You only have to look at computer VST’s like BFD or Superior Drums and the like to realize that MIDI drums can be as utterly convincing as a real drummer. It boils down to the performance of the player of the file, and how well the electronic kit is set up, and how well edited the capture is. Same with percussion. 99% of the realism comes from a real percussionist playing the MIDI parts, idiomatically correctly.

The same applies to rhythm guitar and bass parts. There are many VST’s for bass and guitar rhythm work that are utterly indistinguishable from audio. But they are, to all intents and purposes, doing EXACTLY what an arranger does. Just with a better soundset, and arguably better performances.

But what these give you over audio loops is that element of customization. Need a push in a spot in the rhythm that isn’t there on the audio? Piece of cake to edit the control track. Prefer a Strat to a Les Paul, a Marshall amp rather than a Fender? Piece of cake. Want a chord inversion not included in the audio loops? Most guitar VST’s allow you to select where on the neck the guitar is being played. Want the part played lighter? Done. Want to use an acoustic instead of an electric? Easy peasy!

Few of us have the skill to create an utterly convincing part from scratch. But most of us, in our antiquated conventional arrangers, can easily change the sound of a track and create something VERY different to the original. Not so the audio. It’s a Strat through a Fender, and forget trying to change it. And forget about hiring a studio guy to come in and do it with a Les Paul and a Marshall! Who’s got that kind of money?!

Basically, you either LOVE the audio style, or you’re screwed. Ten minutes on my Roland, I can turn a hard rock style into a gentle folk style. Brush drums, acoustic bass, acoustic guitars, acoustic piano. Done. Let me know how well that works on an Event!

As to pre-canned intros, the solution is, don’t use them! If they define the tune you have to follow them with, they only have one song you can play. The Roland has four intros. One yes, possibly derived from the song the style is in the vein of. One with changes but no defining solo. One shorter one that follows your chords. And a simple one bar count-in. That two to three that aren’t going to define the song. Hitting Intro1 and sitting on your hands while the arranger shows you up by playing better than you is so lazy!

Take away that defining intro, and you’d be surprised at how many songstyles can be used on other songs as long as they aren’t TOO locked into the original. Same with endings. And fills, if too song defining, aren’t THAT difficult to go into the style and change around a bit. Far easier than doing the entire drums from scratch…

Personally, I think that audio arrangers are a dead end. A temporary solution while VST equivalent features get added to MIDI arrangers. We’re already at the point of some arrangers’ guitar modes being quite good, good enough to fool the ear. Drums could benefit from a few more velocity levels and some room mic options, but that’s well within current technology to add.

I think a lot of sokratis’ enthusiasm for the potential expansion of audio styles created by the user is theoretical. I’d really like to hear how much time and possibly expense it took to change a factory style radically, or create one from scratch from a real user. I know how little time it takes on a MIDI arranger.

Very little.

Diki I totally respect your opinion. I don't want to comment on anything. I expressed my opinion. Everyone can draw their own conclusions and make their own choices. I simply let history either disprove what I believe or confirm it. For now (at least me) I'm fine with what I have. That's all.


Edited by Sokratis 1974 (05/25/23 02:38 AM)
_________________________
Style Producer, Sound Engineer, Sound Design.
Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver

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#508333 - 05/25/23 03:36 AM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Henni]
Ingres Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 86
Loc: FWI

wise answer after all these endless attacks...
I'm VERY satisfied with mine...you're right: it's a revolution, which opens the way to other developments!
I have work for the coming months !
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell
imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!

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#508334 - 05/25/23 05:20 AM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Henni]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5304
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Apart from Audio Styles (Whether Midi or audio it is still just a style) what does the Event offer over other keyboards, as not everyone wants to play along to a style.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#508339 - 05/25/23 12:23 PM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Henni]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Interesting comment on an arranger forum! But I know how you feel. I think arrangers of any kind have still got a long way to go before they fool the discerning ear that it’s live. The ear of the player, that is…

Sure, use a live audio style, be extra careful to NEVER ask it to do something that exposes any glitches or weaknesses, you can fool most non-players for a while. Until they hear the exact same fill twice, or the inability to dial back the intensity for a quiet passage, or the impossibility of throwing in a 6/4 bar if needed.

The thing is, these are things that MIDI arrangers can do with ease. My Roland can adjust the velocities of parts (not the volume, but how hard the guitar is strummed, or the drums hit etc) in response to how hard I’m playing…

It’s things like this, the arranger’s tendency to plow on regardless of how YOU are playing that is the main area I’d like to see improved. It’s like playing with a bunch of really good deaf players!

Trouble is, this is a type of thing that would bring massive complexity and expense to fully live audio arrangers. Now you got to get your studio guitarist to not only play all chords, but at ever increasing intensity, and find a way to seamlessly crossfade between the parts.

Look, for me, audio vs MIDI arrangers is very much like sampling vs. modeling. Sampling will give you a supremely accurate picture of a sound in ONE state. To be more accurate, you need many, many recordings of multiple velocities (and round robins for repeated notes) before you can play it expressively. But it still sounds wrong as soon as you start to phrase with it unless you have a very sophisticated articulation library, and even there it falls a bit short. But that simple sample has now ballooned into a multi-GB sound.

Modeling, otoh, maybe not QUITE as close as a recording of one note at one velocity. But play a phrase, play with dynamics, and the expressive nature completely changes how you feel about that one note. No timbre shifts, no unidiomatic note transitions, simply the behavior of the real thing. For the true player, that’s worth any slight lack of realism playing one note. Heck, 40 years ago, I was using a breath controller on my DX7, and the sheer expressive nature of the sound still stands up to many modern arranger sampled saxes.

The simple fact is, yes, you can get utterly convincing backing with audio loops. But without considerable skill and considerable expense, you can do a damn thing with it other than just roll over and take it the way they give it to you. Conventional arrangers, otoh, can’t QUITE give you the same realism (though they creep closer and closer to audio each generation) but at least they are yours to alter and create your own individuality on, to shape into something unique.

At least for me, that’s worth its weight in gold! 🎹😍
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508374 - 06/01/23 12:15 AM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Henni]
MichaelG Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/23/20
Posts: 19
Loc: Sweden
One thing I really like with the Event is thas I can use MIDI and/or audiofiles depending on the circumstanses. This makes it VERY easy to create the style I want. For example I have bought a package with thousends of styles for not very much money. Unfortuonately most of the styles are crap with only some useable parts. But when I put down a few minutes exchangeing some of the instruments with Ketron MIDI and/or audiofiles, I suddenly have a not just useable, but even really good style. It has never been nearly this easy with any of my previous keyboards (Korg PA4X, Yamaha PSR-SX700, Roland G70).

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#508375 - 06/01/23 01:55 AM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: MichaelG]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5304
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By MichaelG
One thing I really like with the Event is thas I can use MIDI and/or audiofiles depending on the circumstanses. This makes it VERY easy to create the style I want. For example I have bought a package with thousends of styles for not very much money. Unfortuonately most of the styles are crap with only some useable parts. But when I put down a few minutes exchangeing some of the instruments with Ketron MIDI and/or audiofiles, I suddenly have a not just useable, but even really good style. It has never been nearly this easy with any of my previous keyboards (Korg PA4X, Yamaha PSR-SX700, Roland G70).


Yes those types of style packages are just poorly converted styles from other brands, and you are lucky if you get even a few that are anything other than naff.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#508386 - 06/03/23 10:42 PM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Henni]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14060
Loc: NW Florida
Trouble is, of course, you are simply taking audio Parts from existing Event styles. Not creating something new. And they need to match the groove of the rest of the style perfectly, because you can’t edit them in any way.

Creating a brand new audio Part is daunting, to say the least. You need to record your player (hopefully someone of session player standard) playing at the very least a major, a minor, a 7th and maybe a diminished pattern in several keys (not really sure how many keys, it depends on how good the Event’s pitch/time transposition is). Probably at least six, so you don’t have to get the transposition algorithm to do more than one whole step.

Rinse and repeat for each Variation and Fill, then Intros, Endings and Breaks.

Phew…

Now bring in a drummer and a bass player.

I don’t honestly see how anyone with less than session pro skills is ever going to be able to pull this off.

We’ve been able to Frankenstyle (TM, patent pending, LOL) our arrangers for years. Bits of this style, bits of that. But brand new ones even using MIDI based arrangers was never easy. Add in having to record real players now, I just don’t see many succeeding. TBH, I doubt many will even try.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#508387 - 06/04/23 02:12 AM Re: VERY good Event demos [Re: Diki]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3311
Loc: South Africa
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Make sure you'll fly forever!

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