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#507672 - 02/18/23 05:42 PM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Originally Posted By Bill in Dayton
If the TCH has been putting out proper harmonies hooked up as is, would that mean the settings in the PSR-S970 are already set set properly?


The thing that worries me is that, deprived of the audio input, the harmonizer didn’t really work at all well. It ought to work pretty well without the audio, maybe not as good as both (I’m not really familiar with your particular TC, is there anything in the manual that cautions against using only MIDI..?) and if it isn’t, it seems to me that something is out of whack…

Mind you, if your current setup works, it works! I’d still try using a send from the mixer to get both sides of the arranger to your speakers in future, though…
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#507677 - 02/19/23 10:41 AM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: travlin'easy]
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
Gary,

On my PSR S970, the first option, "all parts," is highlighted...

Also, my TC Helicon Voice Live Rack is set to MIDI Channel 1


Edited by Bill in Dayton (02/19/23 10:45 AM)
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Bill in Dayton

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#507678 - 02/19/23 10:58 AM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15563
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Bill, when All Parts is selected, this means that you can trigger from the right hand as well as the left. I think this is the setting Uncle Dave used because he used his right hand to trigger his external vocalizer. When KBD and Style is selected, only the left hand style triggers the vocalizer.

Hope this helps,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#507688 - 02/20/23 07:48 PM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Bill, perhaps it’s the setting on the VoiceLive? If it’s only responding to Ch1, what’s being sent from the arranger on that channel? It certainly isn’t the whole style, that’s a bunch of different channels…

Once again, full and fair warning, I don’t really know Yamaha’s, so maybe Gary can fill you in here
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#507692 - 02/21/23 10:04 AM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15563
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
From what I could determine, the TC by default is set to channel 1, and automatically detects the channel that is being transmitted from the arranger keyboard via the midi output connection of the keyboard. On my TC Harmony-M I had to set it by performing the following:

For Advanced Users
MIDI Setup Mode
The MIDI operations of Harmony-M will work for most
simple setups, but there may be times when more
detailed control is necessary. For this, it's possible to
change the default settings for several necessary options
in the MIDI Setup mode.

Harmony-M's buttons have
alternate functions in this mode and are listed below.
To enter MIDI Setup Mode, hold the A/B and On
footswitches. The 3 LEDS in the indicator bar will flash
indicating MIDI Setup mode.

It is not possible to enter
MIDI Setup mode using an external footswitch.
To exit MIDI Setup mode, press the On footswitch only.
In MIDI Setup mode, the following settings are selected
by the buttons on the face of Harmony-M:

o Main Receive Channel (Selected by the Manual
button) - Receive Channel is ready to be set by
default as you entered MIDI Setup mode (Manual
button lit).To change the receive channel:

1. Play a note on your keyboard.
or

2. Manually adjust the channel shown in the Preset
display window with the Voice 1 and Voice 2
buttons.

The LED in the Preset button indicates channel
ten and the 10s position. If the Preset button is lit
and the number 6 is shown in the window for
example, the receive channel is set to 16.The
default channel is 1.

o Continuous Controller (CC's) Receive Channel
(Selected by the Double button) - By default, the
CC receive channel changes along with the Main
receive channel.

If you need to change the CC
channel separately to avoid unwanted parameter
changes from your arranger keyboard or a
sequencer, press the Double button and then
move a slider on your keyboard that's transmitting
on the desired CC channel.This can also be
manually adjusted with the Voice 1 and Voice.

Hope this helps,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#507695 - 02/21/23 01:04 PM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Bottom line is, which style Part or which keyboard Part is ALWAYS playing the full correct chord for the harmonizer to derive the correct notes and intervals to transpose your voice to?

Do you always full LH chord the arranger section? Probably that LWR Keyboard Part channel. Do you do a combination of LH chording and full keyboard chording? Probably the LWR and UPPER Part channels.

I didn’t see in the above manual excerpt if you could select multiple channels as control channels or not. If it can’t, you are kind of in a bit of trouble if you don’t run the arranger the same way all the time. You might need to swap around VoiceLive MIDI templates…

Bottom line with any of the harmonizers. None of them are really designed for arranger players, they’re pretty much designed to either accept an acoustic guitar’s audio output, or the MIDI output of a single channel stage piano/organ etc. Throwing a whole bunch of different channels at them at the same time is a scenario they don’t really want to deal with. The simpler the input, the better the tracking.

Now add in drum notes, if you’re sending a style’s entire MIDI output at a harmonizer if it actually COULD see them all, and you’ve got a whole bunch of non-harmonic notes mixed in with the good ones to confuse the poor chord detection system.

But of course, throw an arranger’s full audio at a harmonizer, and now you’ve got all the drums and percussion throwing non-pitched sounds at that poor detector too! That they work at all is something of a miracle!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#507696 - 02/21/23 01:33 PM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15563
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
If I can figure a way to take a photo of the keyboard information, I'll post it, but I don't know if it will make a difference. From what I have read from the TC manuals, it appears that midi channel 1 only, is used to trigger the harmonizer from the keyboard.

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#507701 - 02/22/23 04:40 AM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Does the PSR allow you to choose which Part sends on which channel?

That’s one thing that has saved my bacon on the BK-9 several times. You not only get to pick and choose which Parts (Keyboard and style/SMF) transmit, receive MIDI, and which channels you want it on, but you can store eight completely different full setups (MIDI Sets) and link them to each Performance (registration) independently.

This has made working with finicky outboard gear a lot easier to control live, when you don’t have time to faff about changing setups on the fly. For the home user, handy but not essential, but on a gig it’s a lifesaver!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#507712 - 02/22/23 12:40 PM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15563
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Diki, There are more options to save and configure than you can shake a stick at.



Attachments
midi1.jpg

midi2.jpg

midi3.jpg

midi4.jpg




Edited by travlin'easy (02/22/23 12:45 PM)
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#507715 - 02/22/23 05:10 PM Re: Questions on Yamaha PSRSX900 / 700 [Re: Bill in Dayton]
TedS Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 810
Loc: North Texas, USA
If you're not 100% satisfied with the harmonizer in your Yamaha, here's something that I noticed on their previous-generation models that bears mentioning...

Yamaha's chord recognition tends to have a bit of a hair trigger. If you play in "AI Fingered" (or any mode other than "Fingered" or "Fingered on Bass" which require a minimum of three notes), the arranger begins to decode the chord as soon as you press the first note. If you press the additional notes needed to form the complete chord even 0.15 seconds late, you will see false chords and very short false notes in the recorded MIDI. Now you might not HEAR them, because Yamaha is also very good and sneaky about using portamento to bend the original notes to what's needed for the chord. BUT-- if the harmonizer is also being driven by the chord channel, it may be receiving those premature, spurious note-on messages, and it might also be using portamento to correct your vocals, adversely affecting the tracking, sound quality, etc.

Wait, there's more... for years people on this forum have bragged about the TC-Helicon built into Korgs. Now I don't sing, but I always wondered whether it was really the TC-Helicon technology, superior integration, or the fact that Korgs "batch" their chord recognition input! Yes, through experimentation I've observed that my Pa800 waits about 0.2 seconds from when the first key is pressed before acknowledging a chord. There is a definite "window," albeit brief, to press additional notes or even release incorrect ones before the arranger signals the new chord. There are almost never false notes in the Korg's recorded MIDI. I find the Korg less responsive to play, and you definitely have to lead the beat by a little more to make your chord changes timely. But I can see where this approach would provide more positive input to a vocal harmonizer.

As I've stated, these observations were made on previous-generation arrangers. Perhaps both companies have since changed their approach, or maybe I'm just tilting at windmills. Your thoughts?


Edited by TedS (02/23/23 01:20 PM)

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