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#507239 - 12/20/22 10:28 AM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: cgiles]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
I wonder which of us would be accused of being ‘incendiary’ if I said I thought what you posted was less entertaining than watching paint dry, Gary? Probably me, seeing as you seem to get a free pass for being insultingly dismissive of posted music…

The purpose of those Roli/SWAM examples is NOT to ‘entertain’, but to illustrate how sax and other real instrument emulation (which we all try to do on our arrangers) is getting rapidly way better than most arrangers can achieve. But can be done on an inexpensive iPad attached to our USB capable arrangers.

I guess, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To a singer/entertainer, perhaps music without lyrics is boring. But somehow, sax players (and guitarists, and trumpet players and basically any capable soloist) have built an entire field of music out of not telling a story with as blunt an instrument as words, but with expression and melody. And any tool that helps coax expression out of the percussive nature of the piano keyboard is anything but boring, at least to someone capable of playing it.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion about posted music. But don’t get offended if someone is as blunt to your choice. Not that I’m against your taste at all, it’s just that mine is perhaps a bit wider. And I still continue to post in the hope that some of this stuff will inspire those still capable of change to explore equipment and techniques to widen their possibilities of musical expression…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#507242 - 12/20/22 11:36 AM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Online   happy
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15559
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Diki, if this were something YOU had posted, something YOU created using those techniques, I would loved to have heard it. I don't want a "FREE PASS" for expressing MY opinion of what you posted. It's just MY opinion, my thoughts, my interpretation of what I heard. Opinions, obviously, vary and thus far, nothing that I have seen and heard has excited me, musically. Guess I'm getting old, Diki. HELL, I am old, and damned proud that I made it this far. wink

Looking forward to someone posting their demos of what they were able to accomplish using the examples posted by you.

Good luck,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#507243 - 12/20/22 12:03 PM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: Diki]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Diki
I wonder which of us would be accused of being ‘incendiary’ if I said I thought what you posted was less entertaining than watching paint dry, Gary? Probably me, seeing as you seem to get a free pass for being insultingly dismissive of posted music…

The purpose of those Roli/SWAM examples is NOT to ‘entertain’, but to illustrate how sax and other real instrument emulation (which we all try to do on our arrangers) is getting rapidly way better than most arrangers can achieve. But can be done on an inexpensive iPad attached to our USB capable arrangers.

I guess, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To a singer/entertainer, perhaps music without lyrics is boring. But somehow, sax players (and guitarists, and trumpet players and basically any capable soloist) have built an entire field of music out of not telling a story with as blunt an instrument as words, but with expression and melody. And any tool that helps coax expression out of the percussive nature of the piano keyboard is anything but boring, at least to someone capable of playing it.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion about posted music. But don’t get offended if someone is as blunt to your choice. Not that I’m against your taste at all, it’s just that mine is perhaps a bit wider. And I still continue to post in the hope that some of this stuff will inspire those still capable of change to explore equipment and techniques to widen their possibilities of musical expression…


AMEN!!!
There seems to be so much of this these days; missing the point of something and then lashing out at the misconception. Maybe that's the reason so many dumbasses are willing to vote against their own best interest.

BTW, I will be releasing my new NFT digital trading card depicting ME sitting behind my ARRANGER KEYBOARD pretending to play Sweet Caroline (in C). There will be a 1% discount on the first 10 cards sold, along with instructions on 'copy and paste' and/or capturing a screen shot. Supply is limited so order soon.

chas the omnipotent
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#507245 - 12/20/22 01:01 PM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Online   happy
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15559
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
smile
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#507248 - 12/20/22 02:49 PM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: travlin'easy]
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Chas, playing cards won't do too much good for either of us. We were BOTH interested in an entirely DIFFERENT ball game!!!!!!


Be well,


Russ

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#507250 - 12/20/22 03:37 PM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: Diki]
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Originally Posted By Diki


The purpose of those Roli/SWAM examples is NOT to ‘entertain’, but to illustrate how sax and other real instrument emulation (which we all try to do on our arrangers) is getting rapidly way better than most arrangers can achieve. But can be done on an inexpensive iPad attached to our USB capable arrangers.


Hi Diki, must have missed that one, did you say iPad? Pc software is so expensive.
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#507321 - 12/27/22 09:04 AM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: cgiles]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
Yes, the SWAM modeled software has been ported to the iPad! And considerably cheaper at that…

There are some trade offs, naturally. You get a more stripped down feature set, some of the fine control available to the computer versions is missing from the iPad version, but to be honest, the only one I’m missing so far is the ability to introduce a bit of random pitch variation, which I can work around by riding the bender or pitch strip.

I am amazed at how low I can get the latency out of my iPad’s audio jack without a stutter ever… 1.5ms! Admittedly, I get that by running just the standalone version, I have yet to see whether running it in a VST/AU shell program (like Camelot Pro) dictates upping the buffer a bit. But even winding it up to 6ms gives a very playable feel. So if I need the shell for hosting better effects (it lacks an echo, and the reverb is pretty barebones) it won’t ruin the experience. And I have a fairly old iPad, a 6th Gen regular iPad (so you don’t need a Pro to run it). That’s amazing!

I bought the Black Friday bundles, which get the cost down to well under $20US for each instrument in a bundle of four. Right now at full price, the four instrument bundles are about $90US. That’s still a no brainer in my book!

I’m not as impressed by the brass and double reeds, but in fairness, most decent arrangers have pretty good brass. But the sax and strings are totally next gen compared to any arrangers built in sounds. Play them idiomatically, they are hard to spot as a keyboard sound. Add a breath controller, even harder!

If the price of them has been holding you back, wait no longer..! Even the $250US for the computer version bundles is worth every penny. But if you have to go laptop version, and only can get one, I’d say the tenor sax is probably the most useful. And the cello and violin is a tossup, depends on what you would use the most.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#507322 - 12/27/22 09:28 AM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: cgiles]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
Unfortunately, Gary, I don’t own a Roli or any MPE equipped controller yet. Roli went out of business and then got bought out, and current Seabord’s are only pre-paid made to order, and cost about $1400. A bit beyond my budget just to try out so I can make you a demo you will listen to!

This is why I posted the Marco Parisi stuff, who I consider the best Roli player I have yet heard. And I’ve heard some pretty bad ones, so just owning one is no magic bullet. Talent and skill is still needed, whether a Roli or a standard keyboard. Skill that eludes a LOT of players on YouTube demos. In fairness, Marco blows away even Cory Henry, who is a piano and organ virtuoso! So it definitely seems like one of those quirky controller things that some people get and others don’t. Marco definitely ‘gets it’… You may or may not like his playing style or choice of material, but there’s no denying the skill with which he coaxes a level of realism from saxes or guitar parts far beyond other more conventional keyboard users.

My playing schedule has kind of blown up lately, while my health has taken a step back (ain’t that always the case?!) so I have little time to record much, but I’ll try to get something to you in the future. But be careful… the paint might still be a bit wet! 😂🎹
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#507323 - 12/28/22 02:39 AM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: cgiles]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5508
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Quote by Diki:
" I’m not as impressed by the brass and double reeds, but in fairness, most decent arrangers have pretty good brass. But the sax and strings are totally next gen compared to any arrangers built in sounds. Play them idiomatically, they are hard to spot as a keyboard sound. Add a breath controller, even harder!"

Besides keyboard, I play chromatic harmonicas fairly well, mainly because I can play most anything by ear, mainly on rifts and verses. This is all well and good, with a favorable reaction from my audience. However, some songs are not as good with harmonica. I have had a DM48 wind controller in harmonica form, that gives me any instrument through USB from a keyboard. Ohers on my forum have used SWAM with great success, but they don't have access to the sounds I have. At present, the DM48 delivers the same basic sound as a key press, with added realism.

In a quest to build a lighter rig, I use a Ketron SD40 module. a controller keyboard, and the DM48 wind controller. I am wondering whether I could attain even more realism with SWAM and my iPad 6. I am speaking of the basic sound to start with. This is quite subjective, but your opinion would be helpful.

Bernie
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pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#507325 - 12/28/22 08:54 PM Re: Backing tracks, pre-arranged sets, etc. [Re: cgiles]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
SWAM is a totally different to any arranger you have heard. It is not based on samples, with perhaps multi-velocity samples or key switching for legato, at best. SWAM uses no samples, is strictly a mathematical model of the reed and pipe (and strings and bow, etc). As such, it can achieve far greater realism in the way one note leads to the next, depending on articulation, breath pressure (or expression pedal), bite force, interval, velocity etc.. And as you increase breath pressure or expression pedal, it offers an infinitely smooth transition from the quiet timbre to the loud one.

A sample is a static photograph of a sound at one particular point. Like a pixel on a screen. The more samples, the clearer the picture becomes. But modeling doesn’t use pixels to create the picture. The picture is clear to start with…

Your MIDI harmonica should do quite well with SWAM. The trick, as always, even with sampled instruments is to play what a sax player would play, not what a harmonica player would..! But get that right, SWAM will amaze you.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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