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#505796 - 06/03/22 12:37 PM Time to learn something past the 30's
cgiles Online   content
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Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6492
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Sorry, I just love these old tunes; besides, they're easy to play smile. Anyhow, one thing you can count on with my (posted) tunes; they always need mixing and editing. Unless you're an ol' fart like me, you probably don't know this tune (or it could be just because of the way I play it smile ), but it's called 'How long has this been going on".

https://app.box.com/s/yrw0ee6n713nk2qyn4beg5f3usj7kn0m

chas
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#505829 - 06/06/22 09:17 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
montunoman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3071
Loc: Dallas, Texas
No need to apologize, great music is great music, doesn’t matter what time period!
Young musicians are still studying the Great American Song Book, and even major contemporary super stars are still recording and performing these timeless classics.

Anyways, loved the organ/ vibe work. I’m curious if any of the major jazz organist and vibraphonist ever did any collaborations? I can’t really think of any but it sure is a nice sound!
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#505830 - 06/06/22 09:48 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6492
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Thanks Paul, the 'vibe' is the vibe factory preset on my Crumar SEVEN. I think it's very authentic, I just need to learn to play more like a real vibes player. And yeah, I can't think of any vibes/organ collabs either, and I'm a child of the 60's/70's (musically smile ).

chas
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#505832 - 06/06/22 10:33 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7194
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
I last played that tune with Ike Cole, Nat's brother at the La Flame club in Lexington in 1973.

Ya gotta love a left hand that moves like that.


R.

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#505833 - 06/06/22 01:54 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6492
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
The problem is, Russ (as you probably know), is that to get that bass sound you HAVE to tap that bass pedal to get that percussive effect and once you get old you can't play really uptempo tunes anymore. That's why I only play medium tempo (@130 bpm) tunes and/or ballads and blues.

BTW, probably my favorite LH Bass player (B3) would be the late, great 'Brother' Jack McDuff. I knew Jack from my Atlantic City days and could tell you some funny stories about Jack, especially his encounters with the cops. Little did I know at the time that some of these guys would go on to become jazz legends (Jack, Johnny 'Hammond' Smith, Don Patterson, Jimmy McGriff, and the list goes on). They all played the same dives we played except that they played on the (lucrative) week-ends and we played during the (throw-away) week days. Jimmy Smith only came through once during the summer and was considered a GOD by the local B3 players.

Russ, this clip is mainly for you since you're a left-hand aficionado. These guys were REAL Pro's. Don't think so? Try playing with them. I must tell you though, Jack had two things going for him; he was left-handed and he was a former bass player. Of course that doesn't account for his enormous talent (or the talent of those playing with him). Make sure you watch the whole tune to catch his best bass licks and his weird straight-fingered bass-playing technique.

Obviously these guys are not about keeping the dancefloor full or keeping 'the ladies' happy; they're about making ART in the form of good music; after all they ARE musicians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIsh1avYn-0&ab_channel=Jazz%C2%B3%2B

chas
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#505838 - 06/07/22 12:25 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5388
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Thank you Chas, I wish I could hear more of your music. I too am enamored by that delicious left hand work.
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#505839 - 06/07/22 03:17 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5388
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Because of this thread I got to thinking of entertainers I knew years ago. Rudy Rosa played about twenty miles up the road from me North of Sarasota. He was a very nice man and died before his time.

One of many selections:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq9RaSzHYi8
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#505842 - 06/07/22 05:54 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6492
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Bernie, the thing about guys like Rudy Rosa, regardless of whether you liked their type of music, is that 1. they knew their instrument, 2. they had a superb sense of rhythm, 3. they were masters in their style, and 4. they had excellent taste and musicianship. I always enjoy watching great musicians, regardless of instrument or musical genre'. For one thing, you know they've put in the work.

BTW, your videos are getting better and better. keep digging into that video editor (it becomes a lot of fun in itself and gives you another creative outlet). Being the 'gear hog' that we know you are smile , you probably have another video camera laying around. Try (when you're comfortable) a two camera (more, if you got 'em) shoot and then piece them together. This is where your video editor really shines. Don't worry if your videocams have different file formats; the editor will resolve that for you. Remember, it's more important than ever now to keep our brains active. Keep those vids coming.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#505852 - 06/07/22 09:53 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15334
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Sounds great to me, Chas - no need for any apologies - when you've got it, you've got it!

Cheers,

Gary cool
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#505856 - 06/07/22 12:40 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5388
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
" Being the 'gear hog' that we know you are " QUOTE FROM CHAS

Ouch, that hurts , Chas. It cuts me to the quick. lol
As a matter of fact, down in the murky depths of my toy box, I seem to recall seeing my Zoom Q3-yes, there it is,

Many thanks for your unwavering support, deserved or not.
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#505891 - 06/11/22 09:59 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2763
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Wooh, Chas, I almost missed this.
You know I love the jazz organ stuff. Really good stuff my (old) man. smile
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#505899 - 06/12/22 07:47 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Kerry Offline


Registered: 09/24/21
Posts: 23
Fabulous listen, thanks Chas!

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#505903 - 06/12/22 12:52 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13617
Loc: NW Florida
Yeah, late to this party… Fantastic!

What’s doing the drum loop?

Just a little technique tip, but the three note glisses up to the note that work so well on the organ sound are a pretty tough trick to pull off with a pair of mallets. A lot of the vibe and marimba grace notes would be single note glisses, or the interval would be a bit wider to give room for the mallets to cross over. Not that it CAN’T be done, just that it wasn’t as common a decoration as you have made it.

But this is sure my cup of tea! Keep it ‘going on’ as long as you can! 🎹😎
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#505916 - 06/13/22 11:17 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6492
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Thanks Kerry and Diki. Oldies, by definition, have stood the test of time. Drums for me is just a rhythmic reference, something to keep everybody on the same page, so to speak (musicians, singers, and dancers). Nothing I do is drum-heavy and I use very few 'breaks', etc. So this makes creating a drum track very easy. I use the same loops or a variation 90% of the time on swing tunes with a 'walking bass'. The variation is pretty much the same sample/loop with a bongo on top. Occasionally, I will use a drum track from the BK7m (convenience) and even (in the past) my old PA1x Pro. Doing everything in a DAW (REAPER) makes life so much easier. Best tracks come from a live drummer who occasionally comes over when we have a rehearsal.

I hear you with the Vibes thing but I have recently started to just incorporate a sound that I like into MY playing style instead of trying to faithfully reproduce how the instrument is normally played. I guess at this stage of my life, I care more about expressing myself musically than trying to sound authentic on an instrument, the playing of which, is foreign to me. In fact, this is ironic, as (being a vibes aficionado) I used to DREAM about a Vibraphone that had a standard keyboard (so I could become an instant Vibes player smile smile ). Who knew, that one day many years later, there would be a ton of keyboard instruments that could do just that. There's probably a message there; that if you live long enough, all your musical/technical dreams will come true.....and an ARRANGER KEYBOARD will one day make it's way into the great concert halls of Europe smile smile.

chas
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#505931 - 06/14/22 06:31 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13617
Loc: NW Florida
If your Crumar can do it, just for fun, split the keyboard and put the vibes on BOTH sides, with the lower split transposed up unto the same range as the upper. Get yourself a little chord loop going, or lay down a comp for a jazz head.

Now, try playing the vibes like you have a mallet or two in each hand (so no more than two notes per hand) and try doing some lines and patterns alternating between each hand. This is a great system for doing repeated rolls on the same note, or tight intricate rhythmic patterns, things that would be quite difficult to pull off with a simple linear keyboard layout. Your fingers won’t trip over each other, and you will also hear a very clear ‘left/right’ kind of feel to the playing, which a vibe player certainly has…

It’s also a great trick for many, many sounds, things like steel drums, marimbas, kalimba, even guitars and synth sounds. Just like drumming (another great use for the split keyboard technique) there’s a tendency to be super rhythmic if you are beating out a patter with both hands compared to playing a line with one hand and five fingers! Think of Stevie, and that incredible two handed clavinet stuff he does…

It isn’t just for trying to emulate another instrument (although it’s amazing for that!) but it may very well lead you into new ways of playing, new types of licks and phrases that you would normally never try on a linear sound.

It’s one of my go to tricks when I’m trying to break free of my more familiar licks and playing style, and look for something fresh. 🎹😎
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#505935 - 06/14/22 07:37 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6492
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Gotta say Diki, you DO think outside the box smile , however, the Crumar SEVEN does not support a split keyboard (nor have I ever heard any SEVEN owners express any desire for that feature. Almost every owner bought it as a RHODES CLONE (substitute) and few have any desire to use it any other way. It has a mediocre acoustic piano (both modeled and sampled) which is somewhat improved in the latest firmware update but the keyboard action is not well suited for playing acoustic piano (feels like an early Rhodes and quite stiff). To be honest, I don't see how creating two identical (and size-limited) keyboards on each side of a split and playing each side with maximum two fingers would make you sound more like a 'real' vibe, especially since a real vibe is not set up that way. Maybe I'm missing something but in any case it sounds like more than I could get my head around (you know, old dog, new tricks). I'm not against trying new things but I notice that I am getting less adventuresome with each passing day. Playing wise, on a scale of 1-10, after a half century I'v managed to reach a very shaky 4. It's unlikely that I'll get any better in the little time I have left. If anything------.

The good new is that you don't need a Crumar SEVEN to try your technique, and I think that some of our more adventurous members should try it and post the results (I'm NOT being sarcastic here; I'd really like to hear an example using the technique you describe).

chas
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#505981 - 06/19/22 01:39 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13617
Loc: NW Florida
You could always use an external keyboard with a split function MIDI’d into the Crumar, just set the same MIDI channel on lower and upper. A 76 gives you a good three octave overlap, which is a healthy range for a solo sound (an 88 even more!).

There’s a demo of me playing The Beatles’ Blackbird over on the Roland sub-forum using the technique with guitar sounds.

There’s airways a drummer playing in my mind, and playing rhythmically well enough to lock with him has always been the secret to good non-classical music. To that end, the two handed rhythmical style has always been my goal, and one of my chief criticisms of the arranger paradigm, which Balkanizes your hands pretty severely. We are bisymmetrical creatures, and using both sides together always seems to lead to strong results!

To be honest, the split technique isn’t anything totally new. You would be expected in a lot of piano music to do this, only you’d have to do it with your hands overlapping (think Debussy or Bill Evans). All the split trick does is allow you to play those close overlapping figures with your hands comfortably apart and not tripping over each other! It’s nowhere near as ‘outside’ a technique as Zawinul’s reverse keyboard layout, but with the same goal in mind…

Get yourself out of rote licks and all too familiar lines and licks. And, once discovered, there’s nothing to stop you from attempting to play it in the close hands position on an unsplit layout. It’s just harder that way! 😂🎹😎
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#505983 - 06/19/22 02:17 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Kabinopus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 662
Loc: Russia
Hello Chas; just listened to your playing and liked it, good work!

Although music like this has nothing to do with my childhood, or youth, and no one in my family listened to songs like this, currently I feel that going this direction can be a better idea than trying to make something "trendy'.

In other words, maybe some things were actually so good and they stay good today just because they are so good, and not because someone is nostalgic.

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#506036 - 06/27/22 11:36 AM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: Kabinopus]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6492
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Kabinopus


Although music like this has nothing to do with my childhood, or youth, and no one in my family listened to songs like this....


Kabinopus, music tends to be both cultural and regional. The one exception might be 'Classical'. Truth is, this type of music wasn't heard in very many American households either unless they were middle-class African-American households. Plus, the heyday of Organ-based jazz was 60's to mid 70's where the dominant musical genre was Pop, R&B, Blues, and early Rock (Rock-N-Roll). So if you missed it, you're not alone smile. There's also the matter of 'Aquired taste' (if you were not born into it culturally). Some people never get it; the 'groove', the 'funk', the emotional overkill smile , and the whole concept of improvisation. These people are still clapping on the "1" and "3" smile.

Unlike most other types of popular music, Jazz Organ has ALWAYS made the bass line a prominent, sometimes dominant, part of the song. There's nearly as much improvisation in the bass line as in the solo. It's what sets the groove and is very much dependent on the rhythmic sensibilities of the organ player (and his 'spiritual' connection with the drummer). Sorry for going on and on, you just had to be there smile.

You're absolutely right about the 'old' tunes, though. They stay good because they were good to begin with. I'm grateful that so many great musicians strive to keep them alive (and fresh).

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#506039 - 06/27/22 12:08 PM Re: Time to learn something past the 30's [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13617
Loc: NW Florida
The thing is, with the Internet being global, there’s no longer any excuse to not have as wide an influence on your playing as you have time for. Start surfing Internet radio stations, you can listen to Balinese pop one minute, Bollywood hits the next, early Deep South blues the next, zydeco, township jive, soca, Broadway, Tuvan throat singing, the sky is the limit!

We may have been raised with little opportunity to listen, but honestly, for the last 30 years the world of music has opened its doors to the curious. Time to start traveling! 🎹😎
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