SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Topic Options
#503306 - 07/19/21 03:28 PM Delete individual user programs on E-50 or G-70?
TedS Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 725
Loc: North Texas, USA
I would like to create a very simple User Program list containing only two entries. The intent is to alternate between them with each successive press of the footswitch. I think on the newer BK-series what I want to do would be easy. However, by default my E-50 (baby brother of the G-70) creates 144 user programs (eight entries times 18 banks) in a "List."

So I could create a new list, and it seems possible to delete entries 3 through 144 by going through the User Program "Finder." But on page 96, the owner's manual warns that the delete function should be used "SPARSELY." Deleting 142 of the 144 entries isn't "sparse!" I'm concerned that the board will be expecting to find 144 entries in the list, and having only two will leave the index pointing to the wrong place. I remember reading on our dear departed Roland Arranger forum about databases becoming corrupted, and I know that formatting the memory is also frowned upon. In case this operation goes awry, my intention is to attempt it on an external memory card.

Bottom line: Is it really possible to delete user programs individually on this generation of Roland arranger? Who has done it, and what were your results? Another alternative I can think of is to copy the same two user programs 72 times in succession, filling all 144 slots of the list. As I advance through them with the foot switch, after 144 it will loop back to program 1. This gives me what I want but it's a lot of work. Grateful for any advice from this community!


Edited by TedS (07/19/21 03:31 PM)

Top
#503317 - 07/20/21 08:38 PM Re: Delete individual user programs on E-50 or G-70? [Re: TedS]
TedS Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 725
Loc: North Texas, USA
Well, apparently the problem goes deeper than just creating a User Program list with two entries. It seems that the parameter "Hold" functionality for User Programs doesn't always work as designed.

I'm trying to select a new user program that maintains EVERYTHING currently in memory: Tones, Style, Tempo, Keyboard mode, etc. Everything EXCEPT the Bass Inversion setting. I spent almost two hours last night trying every reasonable combination of check boxes, saving and re-saving the User Programs, etc. When I activate "Hold," the bass inversion setting does not inherit from the user program as expected. It seems that the programmers bundled this setting with the Style. If I allow the UPG to change the style, the style variation and bass inversion setting also change. But when I lock out the style change, it ignores the bass inversion setting coming from the new UPG. I consider this a software bug, because there is a separately selectable parameter for Bass Inversion. Clearly the intent was to allow the user to change only this parameter. However, it doesn't work!!

If someone has firsthand experience with parameter hold (I'm attempting this on an E-50; it's called "lock" on the newer BKs) and knows how to make this work, i.e., what step I'm missing, I would really appreciate some guidance. Thanks!!


Edited by TedS (07/20/21 08:40 PM)

Top
#503326 - 07/21/21 09:26 PM Re: Delete individual user programs on E-50 or G-70? [Re: TedS]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13349
Loc: NW Florida
So basically, you are looking for a way to toggle Bass Inv with your feet?

Easy enough with the G70… it was an FC7 choice. Don’t have the E50 manual handy right now. Does it have a Control Pedal input choice that can be set to Bass Inv? The Control Pedal inputs could be either a switch or a continuous controller. If you are willing to forgo an expression pedal, maybe that input could be used?

The deeper problem seems to be your reluctance to embrace the whole ‘One Performance (or two, or three!) per song’ workflow. A lot of old school players seem really locked into the old system of selecting styles and sounds on the fly, and unfortunately, the darn things got so complex that isn’t really a good idea any more.

My solution would be, turn off all the Hold stuff (as you’ve noted, it doesn’t always work right) and simply write two identical UPG’s per song, one with Bass Inv on, one with it off. Without a G70 you can’t really toggle between the two with your feet (you only get either Perf Up or Perf Down as a control pedal option, not Perf Up/Down toggle) and use the screen to select them on the fly.

I agree that it’s a bug, but it’s a fifteen year old bug, it’s not going to ever be addressed.

There comes a time when we just have to step away from old habits and migrate to whatever works with newer technology. If you prepare a UPG or two for every song you do, you should be good to go…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

Top
#503329 - 07/21/21 11:23 PM Re: Delete individual user programs on E-50 or G-70? [Re: TedS]
TedS Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 725
Loc: North Texas, USA
I want the functionality that the FP-50 and FP-80 have. Where the Bass Inv is MOMENTARY- i.e., KB recognizes inversions when the pedal is down, and allows any inversion when the pedal is up. I don't want to press once to set and again to release, that's too slow for real time. Roland got it right on the FP-series.

I've fooled around with a MIDI Solutions Footswitch Controller driving the MIDI solutions relay. This combo works OK on the BK's, but I guess the E-50 is too slow-witted because no matter how I adjust the "debounce time" eventually the E-50 gets out of sync and fails to recognize the pedal press.

I also want to use the same functionality with a different footswitch to permit "momentary" shifts from Intelligent to Standard chord recognition. This will allow me to play those odd [1+5]s and intelligent chords for the rest of the score. Casio gets this right, but when you play [1+5] Roland just gives you a major chord. This is a shame because you can already get majors by playing a single note, or a major third (which is also a wasted opportunity.) In various boards Roland incorporated a footswitch function for switching between intelligent and Piano style chord recognition. But no facility for a quick switch from Intelligent to Standard, and vice-versa.

My last option is to learn how to program an Arduino. Then I could build a general-purpose logic circuit with user-customizable delay timers that generates a momentary "pulse" each time you press OR release the footswitch. I'm certain that it can be done but it requires logic to monitor the "state" of the pedal and generate the pulse each time it changes. To be useful, the sampling period, pulse duration, the and the minimum elapsed time between pulses have to be customizable by the user because the INTERNAL sampling period in the keyboard varies from model to model. Honestly, someone with more electronics or software experience should have done a kickstarter project like this years ago. There are lots of circuits that turn a momentary switch into latch, but not vice-versa. Google search suggests that I'm not the only one in the music community who is asking for such a device!


Edited by TedS (07/21/21 11:35 PM)

Top
#503344 - 07/22/21 03:59 PM Re: Delete individual user programs on E-50 or G-70? [Re: TedS]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13349
Loc: NW Florida
I want a date with Halley Berry. Doesn’t mean I’m going to get one!

If I could see a solution to your issue, I’d post it. I can’t see one. So, the question becomes, can you work around the issue in other ways, or should you give up?

As I have said before, Ted… the effort that it looks like it would take to learn to program Arduino, or any of these other extremely labor intensive so-called ‘solutions’ to your problem strike me as far more work than simply addressing the core problem you stubbornly cling to. The unwillingness to just knuckle down for a few weeks or months, and actually learn to play the chords properly.

How many months or years have you spent trying to work around a problem that a few weeks hard practice would have solved for good? All this talk about semi-solutions that one keyboard or another had, that introduce further problems because something ELSE they do doesn’t work right, the frustration that keyboards aren’t always designed about your self-imposed restrictions (conveniently ignoring that other people are quite content with different fingering systems that you won’t adapt to), the upset when a system that previously worked for you is dropped because hardly any people use it…

All this, gone in a few weeks of the same exact degree of effort, but spent on learning to finger chords properly rather than arcane workarounds that will have to change for your next keyboard because it does one thing or another slightly differently. I mean, for Pete’s sake, what’s so hard about learning that 1st inversion C chord is EGC..? Bloody sight easier than Arduino, I guarantee!

A ‘shortcut’ that costs more in time than the original journey is no shortcut, my friend!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

Top

Moderator:  Admin, Diki 



Help keep Synth Zone Online