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#501730 - 12/12/20 08:43 AM Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why?
DannyUK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 1130
I don't understand why Yamaha have only 4 bar on their styles. This to me is a huge oversight and cannot compare to Ketron or Korg until they address this. Some Ketron styles go as far as 16 bars, it makes so much difference.


Edited by DannyUK (12/12/20 08:44 AM)

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#501735 - 12/12/20 03:01 PM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: DannyUK]
Ketron User Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 220
And Ketron SD-series have up to 8 variations...

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#501736 - 12/12/20 04:35 PM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: DannyUK]
MacAllcock Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1221
Loc: Preston, Lancashire, England
That 4 bar limit may be arbitrary given that each style part is a short midi file with significant style specific sysex.

The PSR Tutorial site https://psrtutorial.com/index.html has some info and utilities that might help and indeed prove me completely wrong!
_________________________
John Allcock

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#501737 - 12/12/20 10:21 PM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: DannyUK]
TedS Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 810
Loc: North Texas, USA
Somehow I don't think this is a hard limit. It might turn out that most of the factory styles are four bars to improve playability with a variety of songs. But I'm pretty sure you can create a user style that's longer than that. All of the major brands allow a user to create custom styles that vary throughout their length, and are complex enough to address most genres of music.

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#501738 - 12/13/20 03:39 AM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: TedS]
groovyband.live Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/19
Posts: 64
Exactly. Yamaha's style parts are simply midi files and can be as long as you want (probably there is some arbitrary limit imposed by the keyboard firmware).

But to be useful with many songs (a good style should be generic in nature) a pattern must be simple and hence short, otherwise you bake in a specific recognizable riff that is good only for one song (usually a famous song everybody immediately recognizes no matter what!).

The new Yamaha styles found in recent keyboards (Genos) unfortunately are less generic than the old ones, and more song specific (the style name itself is often a rephrased title of a well known hit of the past).

Another fundamental problem of Yamaha styles is that the keyboard firmware (20+ years old, practically unchanged since then), is as dumb as a midi player (or mp3 audio player): it plays the midi track EXACTLY as it is encoded, the same notes with the same velocity with the same timing, over and over and over again.

Since the loop is short, usually 2÷4 bars, it becomes mechanically repetitive pretty fast. To compound the problem, even fill ins, the break and the intros are dumb to the same level: they play the stone encoded sequence unaware of the context.

If a break is 8 parts wide and you call it during a main section that is playing only 3 parts (let us say drums, bass and a guitar), it is totally disruptive and completely inappropriate.

A given variation always triggers the same identical fill-in. This is not the case with a real band, and again it becomes mechanically repetitive pretty fast.

If an intro has baked in the count-in beats, then it can only be used as song intro (at the beginning) and not as riff mid song to spice up your performance.

Other manufacturer's arranger engines are probably no different, as well.

* * *

Our software, that works on all Yamaha arrangers (used as mere sound generators and keys donors) is immune of all these obvious "defects" of legacy arranger engines:

1) The velocity of all notes is continuously randomized (strength optionally selectable by the user per part and per style section). This randomization is smart: contiguous notes, such us those of a guitar strum, are randomized maintaining their natural related dynamic.
2) The timing of each note is randomized, with each part following an independent drift, as it is the case with real players (each one deviating from the ideal tempo in an independent manner). This feature is implemented in the upcoming January 2021 release.
3) For each single drum hit (note) we also randomize the sound quality, by applying randomized filter cutoff, resonance, envelope.
4) Every sound noise (fret noise, breath noise, string slide, ......) is randomized picking from a pool of similar effects. And hence you never hear the same noise in the same point of the looping pattern.
5) The count-in bars are skipped when an intro is played mid song.
6) Fill ins and breaks are context aware, the pattern and parts played depends on the current variation, the next variation, and the active parts.

Many more trade secrets are running under the hood. And all together they do make a difference.

We offer a free demo (check the link in the signature) so that everybody can try on his/her own and make an A/B comparison.
_________________________
Groovyband Live! - Realtime Arranger Software

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#501744 - 12/13/20 10:30 AM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: DannyUK]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14202
Loc: NW Florida
The problem with much longer phrases in styles mostly boils down to the tendency to place little pickups in the middle, which is fine and dandy if your song is straightforward in structure, but can lead to some odd rhythms if for instance you have the odd shorter or longer phrase.

And, of course, if you DO trigger a fill, it goes back to the beginning of the Variation, where to be less repetitive, maybe sometimes it ought to drop into the middle..?

I’ve always felt that arrangers needed an extra set of fills, for ‘Fill-to-Same’ that were just little pickups from the main groove of the Variation allowing YOU to pick and choose where they come in.

In the meantime, if you DO want a much longer Variation with subtle changes, it’s usually a fairly simple edit to append a Variation to itself, and then get in there and just adjust the odd note or rhythm in the longer version. Just be cautious about putting something too specific at the four bar location. Not EVERY song has a simple structure!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#501745 - 12/13/20 10:34 AM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: groovyband.live]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3585
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By groovyband.live
Exactly. Yamaha's style parts are simply midi files and can be as long as you want (probably there is some arbitrary limit imposed by the keyboard firmware).

But to be useful with many songs (a good style should be generic in nature) a pattern must be simple and hence short, otherwise you bake in a specific recognizable riff that is good only for one song (usually a famous song everybody immediately recognizes no matter what!).

The new Yamaha styles found in recent keyboards (Genos) unfortunately are less generic than the old ones, and more song specific (the style name itself is often a rephrased title of a well known hit of the past).

Another fundamental problem of Yamaha styles is that the keyboard firmware (20+ years old, practically unchanged since then), is as dumb as a midi player (or mp3 audio player): it plays the midi track EXACTLY as it is encoded, the same notes with the same velocity with the same timing, over and over and over again.

Since the loop is short, usually 2÷4 bars, it becomes mechanically repetitive pretty fast. To compound the problem, even fill ins, the break and the intros are dumb to the same level: they play the stone encoded sequence unaware of the context.

If a break is 8 parts wide and you call it during a main section that is playing only 3 parts (let us say drums, bass and a guitar), it is totally disruptive and completely inappropriate.

A given variation always triggers the same identical fill-in. This is not the case with a real band, and again it becomes mechanically repetitive pretty fast.

If an intro has baked in the count-in beats, then it can only be used as song intro (at the beginning) and not as riff mid song to spice up your performance.

Other manufacturer's arranger engines are probably no different, as well.

* * *

Our software, that works on all Yamaha arrangers (used as mere sound generators and keys donors) is immune of all these obvious "defects" of legacy arranger engines:

1) The velocity of all notes is continuously randomized (strength optionally selectable by the user per part and per style section). This randomization is smart: contiguous notes, such us those of a guitar strum, are randomized maintaining their natural related dynamic.
2) The timing of each note is randomized, with each part following an independent drift, as it is the case with real players (each one deviating from the ideal tempo in an independent manner). This feature is implemented in the upcoming January 2021 release.
3) For each single drum hit (note) we also randomize the sound quality, by applying randomized filter cutoff, resonance, envelope.
4) Every sound noise (fret noise, breath noise, string slide, ......) is randomized picking from a pool of similar effects. And hence you never hear the same noise in the same point of the looping pattern.
5) The count-in bars are skipped when an intro is played mid song.
6) Fill ins and breaks are context aware, the pattern and parts played depends on the current variation, the next variation, and the active parts.

Many more trade secrets are running under the hood. And all together they do make a difference.

We offer a free demo (check the link in the signature) so that everybody can try on his/her own and make an A/B comparison.







A lot of these features ... plus more are also being used in KETRON products ... as far back as the SD1. The newer SD9/7 based units and Audya also use a alot of AI within the style. We have some videos on Youtube that illustrate this.
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#501746 - 12/13/20 11:17 AM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Ingres Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 86
Loc: FWI
I agree with AJ.
Moreover, multiple bars variation are not tied to A SINGLE song.
Some rythms have an architecture with 8, 16 (32 bars) that fit on multiple pieces of music (some swings, creole music like cha cha, Kompa, zouk, ...).
I couldn't stand without this feature!


Edited by Ingres (12/13/20 11:22 AM)
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell
imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!

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#501749 - 12/13/20 03:33 PM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By Diki
The problem with much longer phrases in styles mostly boils down to the tendency to place little pickups in the middle, which is fine and dandy if your song is straightforward in structure, but can lead to some odd rhythms if for instance you have the odd shorter or longer phrase.

And, of course, if you DO trigger a fill, it goes back to the beginning of the Variation, where to be less repetitive, maybe sometimes it ought to drop into the middle..?

I’ve always felt that arrangers needed an extra set of fills, for ‘Fill-to-Same’ that were just little pickups from the main groove of the Variation allowing YOU to pick and choose where they come in.

In the meantime, if you DO want a much longer Variation with subtle changes, it’s usually a fairly simple edit to append a Variation to itself, and then get in there and just adjust the odd note or rhythm in the longer version. Just be cautious about putting something too specific at the four bar location. Not EVERY song has a simple structure!


Normally a fill comes in as soon as you press the button, and lasts until the end of the bar (Although you can usually program longer ones if needed) whereupon it continues to the next bar along rather than going back to the beginning, a break on the other hand starts at the next bar and lasts for as long as the break is programmed for.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#501751 - 12/13/20 06:14 PM Re: Yamaha, only 4 bars on Styles. Why? [Re: DannyUK]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14202
Loc: NW Florida
But if your phrase is 16 bars long, then you ask for a fill in Bar 8, it goes back to Bar 1 after the fill plays, not continue on to Bar 9. That means that longer phrases often seldom get the last part played if you need fills. At least it has done that in all arrangers I’ve played so far...

Perhaps something like a Korg could be set up to do this, but I can’t say I’ve come across a ROM style that did it. Generally, a fill goes to Bar1 in whatever Variation is selected next. So if it is the same Variation, it goes back to Bar 1 as well.

The issue usually boils down to, how much are we willing to pay for an arranger to be stocked with styles as complex as they would be if all of them had 16 bar Variations with fills that either continued or reset as needed (how would you tell the arranger whether to continue or repeat?)? The basic truth is, shorter 4-8 bar styles are less complex to make, less complex means cheaper... one bar fills are easier to ensure trigger correctly, etc., etc..

If you want dozens of new styles when you buy a new arranger, you’re more likely to get them if they don’t take lots more effort to make..!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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