Hi Guys,

I find your comments on chords, harmony and music theory most interesting. Chuck, I commend you in your presentation of chord structure. What I find especially interesting is that there are apparently many on the forum interested in deep harmony. We have come at a time where good harmony is no longer appreciated or necessary in popular music. Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Rap, whatever, has been popular for so long a time, most people who buy music today haven't heard or appreciate good harmony. It is a damn shame. Today's music enthusiast no longer appreciates the beautiful, well-written songs of yesterday and there are no songs replacing the songs of the 20s - 50s, that were so rich with harmonies.

Since I was a very young boy, (about 5) I was aware of good harmony and especially, beautiful arrangements, whether it was big band or a lush arrangement behind a pop singer. Being aware made me hopefully, a better musician. Harmony is interesting, for everyone doesn't hear it. By this, I mean most non musicians and many musicians with no real ear only hear basic harmony. Extended harmonies, i.e., alternative/substitute chords are not heard. For us, who understand advanced harmonies, find this hard to understand. I'm sure we have heard well-known pianists who have a great skill playing runs and their harmony is less than interesting - I have.

I think one can truly appreciate hearing harmony, when playing, if one doesn't have to read music as they play. In addition to being able to read music, having the ability to play by ear is a real advantage. Having to read and concentrate on your playing interferes with full enjoyment of what you are hearing.

I have rambled on enough - These are just my thoughts on harmony and the pleasure of hearing it. Thanks for all your comments.

KN6 Guy

Good Morning KN6Guy,

You have hit the nail squarely on the head! As I have said on this forum before, most of today's music is just noise pollution produced by a drummer who hits the drums with all of his might (no finesse), a guitar player who uses distortion with the volume turned to max, and a male or female screaming into a microphone connected to huge amplifiers that amplify their complete lack of a voice or vocal talent.

The harmonies of the music of the 20s through 50s, the full bands and orchestras backing vocalists of the stature of Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaugh, Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett et al combined to produce the greatest pop music sounds ever. And lets not forget those composers who wrote that beautiful music, especially those wonderful melodies. I've heard numerous pop songs of the present day where the melody is nothing more than four or five notes repeated endlessly. Is that music? I certainly don't think so. I honestly believe the young people of today have tin ears! Rhythm - the beat! - is what its all about these days. Oh, and that screaming male or female up front with the mic.

In fairness, I have to say that some pop groups have produced good music. I think Abba and the Beatles are a couple of examples. Paul McCartney wrote "Norwegian Wood" and it is a very pretty piece of music. If you don't listen to classical music you may not be aware that Paul McCartney writes classical music for string quartets. So there are good musicians in the pop music world who can and do write good music. Unfortunately, the radio stations don't play it. Here in the UK we have just two radio stations that play decent music - Jazz FM and Classic FM. On Sunday afternoons the BBC Radio 2 broadcasts several radio shows that play music from the 20s to 50s and I enjoy those shows a great deal, but they only last about three or four hours.

I'm off my soap box now.

Back to chords and harmony. It is probably not generally known that dominant chords can be bi-tonal. Let me give you an example. Take C7. The notes are C,E,G, and Bb. If you alter the chord by adding the 9th, 11th, and 13th (D,F, and A) you have a C major chord (C,E,G) with Bbmajor7 chord on top of it (Bb,D,F, and A) You don't see bi-tonal chords used very often in harmony, but they are legitimate chords in their own right. They are more likely to be used in the jazz idiom than in any other type of music. Bi-tonal chords came to mind after I had finished writing in the other thread about chords, so thought I would include that little bit of information here for anyone who is interested in chords and harmony.

Take care KN6Guy.

Chuck

there are so many manufactured bands nowadays that hardly anyone mainstream seems to write their own music anymore. And its obviously too dificult for the manufactured groups to remember more than three chords...

Hi Alec,

You hit the nail on the head as well! Sadly, most of today's so-called "music" is shallow. Shallow in that it is all too often just three chords with a rhythm backing and some so-called vocalist screaming three words over and over in sync with the rhythm. What a pity when beautiful music could be created instead. But, the trash produced today is what sells. I'll never understand why.

Now, back to harmony and chords. This is for those who like to dabble in harmony and chords and are looking for an easy chord substitution rule to apply to their music. If you are faced with a G7 chord and wish to reharmonize the melody note, play Dminor7 instead. So the rule is: when faced with a dominant chord, count UP a fifth (G, A, B, C, D) or DOWN a fourth (G, F, E, D) and play the resulting root note (in this case D) in a minor seventh form. It will not work with all melody notes but is frequently useful and surprisingly nice to the ear. So the next time you face a dominant chord, do your counting, play a minor seventh chord, and enjoy the difference in the sound.

Chuck

A very good musician and me were discussing ad lib. I was fairly young, around 28 at the time. We were on the subject because I admired how he came up with the things he did and how he arrived at his ideas. In the course of picking his brain he made a statement that has stuck in my head to this day. In fact I have heard it mentioned several times since then when discussing the art of presenting your music to others. I am not a great technician in my playing but with the idea of these three little words always in mind, I never fail to please the people who I play for. The words? ‘Chords Are Everything.’

Chords ARE everything! How you understand them and use them will lift you above the average and even give you an edge over some of the more skillful players.

Chuck, I also admire your skill in putting your thoughts into words. This skill is about as important to communication as chords are to music presentation. The quality of things discussed on this forum never seems to end and is always on a higher level than the others. Guys, and gals, I want to thank you all for the high standards you have set and your interest in music making. I really, and I mean really really enjoy the subject matter presented and discussed here. Thanks again.

Grandpa Doug

Hi Doug,

Thank you for your kind comments. Much appreciated. Like you, I have enjoyed this forum a great deal because of the quality people who particpate and their wonderful willingness to share their knowledge and skills and to solve problems for all of us when we encounter them. A super bunch of people with whom I am proud to associate.

Chuck

"How strange, the change, from major, to minor..."

Oh, Mr. Technicsplayer -

You are yanking our chain - "Everytime We Say Goodbye" - I'll say "Goodbye" to you. I'll bet you don't remember that one?

KN6 Guy

Ouote: “the trash produced today is what sells. I'll never understand why.”

Chuck, did you ever hear about the up and down and the in and out theories? What goes up must come down and what goes in must come out. When a plane takes off it must come down, one way or another. When you shove some thing in your mouth it must come out, one way or another. So it is with your mind. What goes in must come out. The mind has many ways to be fed. Two holes in the nose, sense of smell. Two holes for eyeballs, feeding the mind with porn and trash or beauty and goodness. Two ears also to take in the sounds and ideas the mind desires. And one mouth. Oh that mouth. Out comes the residue of what was fed to the mind. Some call the mouth the you know what of the head. The feet carry the mind to the desires of the mind and the hands purchase and carry the food of the mind to again nourish the mind with it’s desires. Just like computers, trash in, trash out! Keyboards the same, trash in, trash out. People, trash in, trash out. You say the music of today is shallow? The music is shallow because the source of it is shallow, the shallow people. Many choose to slosh around in the shallows of life and never learn to swim through the depths of life. “I’ll never understand why?” I understand why and I think you do too, deep down. Then again I have been wrong before, just ask Ruthie.

Grandpa Doug

P.S. Alec, how strainge, the change, from melody art, to bellowing fart.
Maybe we are poets and we don’t know it.

Hello Doug,

I think you missed your calling, good buddy. You should have been a philosopher. You seem to have an innate sense of what life is all about, in essence - what makes people tick. Seems to me you have been a keen observer of people and a keen interpreter of the motivations behind their actions throughout your life. I think I do understand why some people are shallow and others are not. But I could be wrong, too. I'll leave it there.

Chuck

Chuck ... Along with the 'bi-tonal' chord you describe, I believe there is also a 'polyphonic' chord structure (I have no theory training) which would have a CM7 - C-E-G-B- in the left hand, followed by a D- F#- A in the right hand ..... I use it some times on the ending of a tune, and it can be quite effective ...
t.

Hi Tony,

I hope you are feeling much better and on the mend. Using these combination of notes as an ending could be used as an ending in a song written in the key of "G" or "C" - I am assuming you are using this in the key of "C."

KN6 Guy

Fortunately, things seem to be coming along well .... A neighbor who had the same surgery just about a year ago told me I have to take things week to week, not day to day, and week to week things are improving...

Yes, the combination I mentioned is used in the key of C, but the formula can be applied to any key i.e. in the key of Eb the left hand would be Eb - G - Bb - D and the right hand would be F - A- C .... I have a friend of mine who is pretty much a self taught piano player, but studied (alto sax) and listened intently to jazz all his life .... he incorporates the 'polyphonic' chords quite a bit in his piano playing, and sounds REALLY good ...
PS - he also has a GREAT ear !!!
t.



[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 04-07-2003).]

I've been reading this thread about harmonies and the lack of harmony, and it brought back memories of my early musical years. I grew up in the 50's with the advent of rock and roll, and when I decided it was time to play an instrument, I chose the guitar, with no knowledge of what I was getting into, of course. Back in those tough times, there was no money for lessons, so you bought a play-along book and hooked up with anyone who seemed like they knew what they were doing, and tried to learn from those meager ends. Three chord harmony was all that was needed for most songs, and all I had to learn was the f chord and the 1-5-7 progression on the guitar neck. Sheet music was another expensive item, so learning and playing by ear was almost mandatory. Growing up in the country, I probably knew two people who played guitar, so I hit a learning plateau very quickly and after too many years of being a mediocre player, finally called it quits and switched to an organ. What a difference that made! Now I had a whole orchestra at my fingertips and it's been a learning curve since! This forum has been a hugh help since I switched to keyboards from the organ, and for a long time I was strictly a reader and not a poster. For the most part, I try to keep my music simple, because it's mainly the styles I'm passing on, and not showmanship. We all have our own little niche, and some more than one, but that's what makes this forum a success and I hate it when I have to pass a day without visiting this site. We are really turning into a family, here.

Hi Tony - I use the chord you describe above as an ending in jazz tunes only I use a dominant seventh as the basis for the chord (B flat in the key of C) - I usually precede this with the same chord structure a semitone above. So for ending a song in C I first play C#-F-G#-C-D#-G-A# followed by C-E-G-A#-D-F#-A (With two hands of course) . This sounds fantastic using brass as a big band ending.

Glad you're getting better.

KFINGERS

Hi Tony,

It is indeed good news that you are healing. I know you will be back on your feet soon and enjoying life as much as ever - especially your music. Its good to see you participating here.

Tony, to be honest, I have never heard the term "polyphonic" applied to a chord type, but having said that, chords are indeed multi-phonic (or polyphonic) since they consist of multiple notes, each with a different sonority. The chord you mentioned - C,E,G,B,D,F#,A - can be looked at from two perspectives. First, as a Cmajor7 chord with a 9th, augmented 11th, and 13th added. Second, as a chord with bi-tonality i.e., C,E,G (C major) with Bminor7 on top - B,D,F#,A. I have never attempted to make an in-depth study of harmony for it is not something I want to pursue in my music. On the other hand, I have picked up a little knowledge over the past 66 years of playing an instrument and my basic understanding of what makes music tick harmonically speaking has come in handy from time to time. I've enjoyed this discussion of chords for it made me do some serious thinking and reading, and recalling from experience. Perhaps we can carry the theme of this thread forward with folks offering nice chords for intros and endings - chords such as you and KFingers have shared.

Take care, Tony.

Best Regards, Chuck

Chuck - As I've said before, I've had no 'formal' training on piano (studied accordion as a teen and "migrated" to piano/kbs later in life), but at one time I did try to improve my piano skills by studying with a guy who was from Austria (I believe) .... He was a fantastic sax player who played GREAT piano ... he taught me the 'polyphonic' chord structure ...
Coincidentely enough, several years after we moved to Rhode Island I studied piano again for about 1 year, and the teacher was a fantastic piano player whose primary instrument was sax!!! .....
Back to 'chords', it would be great if we could keep this thread going with people offering some chord substitutions they use in different songs ... Provided, of course that we do not violate any copywrite laws...
t.

Good Evening, Tony:

The sun has set and nightfall isn't far away here in the UK. We've had a sunny, albeit coldish day. Time to make one of my several daily "check-ins" on our forum.

You said it would be great if we could keep this thread going. As you will have read in my earlier post, I too, thought it would be nice if we could share the chord progressions of our favorite intros and endings. I received an e-mail from Bebop and he encouraged me to keep the chord thing going. I've given some preliminary thought to it and decided I will likely start two threads. One will be discussing chord voicings and the other chord substitutions. I don't think there are any copyrite considerations involved here because we are not stealing original material such as melodies. I'm sure chords are universal or common property in terms of their voicings, substitutions, and progressions. If there is enough interest in such threads, I will assemble some material and post it to get the ball rolling, then rely on the rest of our family to particpate and contribute. Of course I will be an active particpant as well.

I'll wait to hear more from all of you concerning this. That doesn't mean that I expect overwhelming demand or support. Just a few of us who are genuinely interested in learning more about our music are enough to keep things rolling along. Let me know your wishes.

Now to your music, Tony. For some reason I had dropped out of Bebop's KN6000 mailing list and did not receive a copy of your music. Bebop rectified that last night and your music is playing as I write. Great stuff! It will give me lots of pleasure from now on. "All the Things You Are" is one of my favorites, and as is so often the case, a song brings back special memories of yesteryear. I had a buddy in my late high school and after high school days. He had a super tenor voice. That song was one he sang so well and received countless requests for.

That's it from me for the moment, so take care, Tony. Happy playing!

Chuck