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#48046 - 10/18/03 11:39 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry:

The intent of the "TIP" is targeting the pre-built rhythm pattern only. I'm not familar what the KN rhythm patterns have, so I'll just use an example.

Lets say you record using a KN6000 pre-built rhythm Foxtrot, keeping the pre-built location. You use panel memory to store it, and record your song. What is saved in panel memory is the location and where foxtrot resides. Not the actual beat.

Now take that recording and load it in a KN7000, you are not going to get that exact Foxtrot that was on the KN6000. You will get the KN7000 Foxtrot, it maybe slightly different, completing different or in some cases the same(there have been repeated patterns).

If you like a rat-a-tat-tat and want to keep it, you must copy it to the composer. If not, the different model may have dat-o-dat-toot.

Hope this helps explain it.

Anthony

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#48047 - 10/18/03 12:23 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi again Larry:

You asked: Why do you have to copy the patterns in composer first? Is this step really necessary?

You have to ask yourself another question first. The answer to that question will answer your question...

Ask yourself this; Do you like the pre-built rhythm pattern that is being used in the song, and you want to keep that exact rhythm pattern in the song if you ever upgrade to the next model? If the answer is yes, then the answer to your question is yes. Not that it's required, but for your benefit in having that particular rhythm available when loaded.

Anthony

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#48048 - 10/18/03 12:36 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Hi Anthony,

That explains it very well.

So the proper way to record and save a song is to use composer copy. Panel Memory is only needed if using the Panel Memory settings. Correct?


Using Composer Copy, are you also saying that the upper end keyboard will play exactly the way the lower ended keyboard recorded it?

Can MSA be used after "composer copying" the rythmn pattern?

I guess the best way is to try it as I still have both the 3000 along with the 7000. I'll let you know my results.

Bill your right, expansion board sounds played on a keyboard without the expansion board, sound well...let's put it this way...close to, but not nearly the same. I suppose, if a non expanded keyboard could copy the exact sound from an expansion board, Technics would not sell many expansion boards. I personally find Expansion Boards a bit over rated. There are sound disks available, and while probably not quite as good as expansion boards, you can't beat the price. There are some really fine Sound Disks available that rival some Expansion Boards.

SeeYa
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48049 - 10/18/03 12:43 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3194
Loc: Norway
Larry, you have a really good chanche to see
what differences it really can be when not use
the pattercopy to composer.
Just see the differences in the stylesection, and
the result may be totally wrong if you playback the
piece saved on KN3 at your KN7.
GJ
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#48050 - 10/18/03 02:53 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry:

Larry asks: So the proper way to record and save a song is to use composer copy?

Reply: If you like a particular rhythm pattern and don't want to part from it when getting a new model, the answer then is yes.
---

Larry asks: Panel Memory is only needed if using the Panel Memory settings. Correct?

Reply: Panel memory will stilll need to be used as usual, but not programmed to the location where the pre-built patterns are, but programmed to the composer location instead.
---

Larry asks: Using Composer Copy, are you also saying that the upper end keyboard will play exactly the way the lower ended keyboard recorded it?

Reply: What your trying to accomplish by copying the pre-built patterns to the composer is that these rhythms will be available when loaded in the next model up. Done correctly the answer is yes.
---

Larry asks: Can MSA be used after "composer copying" the rythmn pattern?

Reply: Depends on the model. If PR900, the answer would be no, but on PR804 the answer is yes. Model dependent... Not sure on the KN models...
---

As you said, and since you do have a KN3000. Take a KN3000 song you have that's using a pre-built rhythm location. Listen to it closely. Now load it in the KN7000, what do you hear? Is it using the exact same rhythm pattern? Different? If the KN3000 song had the pre-built rhythm pattern in the composer, then you would have the "Exact" pattern.

Anthony

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#48051 - 10/18/03 09:38 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
lahawk Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2198
Loc: Lehigh Valley, Pa.
Anthony and Company,

Thanks for the tips. After using composer copy on a built in rythmn pattern, I recorded a song on the 3000 and played it on the 7000, and the rythmn was near perfect.

However..you don't want to know about the Right 1 and/or Right 2 "sound"...but I'm going to tell you anyway...ha...lets say...it's not so good. A mello sax sounds like a kazoo...editing is definetly in order..probably a lower octave change is needed.

Other then that, I'm glad for this post, it has reminded me, and hopefully others the importance of recording from composer memory.

Thanks Again
Larry Hawk
_________________________
Larry

" Always Do Whatever's Next "

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#48052 - 10/18/03 11:33 PM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi Larry.

About the R1 and R2 thing... That's because of the KN3000 built in sounds vs the KN7000 built in sounds converting process. This would happen anyway. A fork in the road that can have it's own discussion...

I'm getting my PR900 songs converted first in PR902 format then in PR804. I have to adjust the R1 and R2 One octave lower, and the Left one Octave Higher to get the original octaves back.

You know this is the tip of the iceburg, once you have the pre-built rhythm patterns in the composer, you are now able to tweak these some that was not possible doing it the other way. Say Accomp 2 had a flute, and you wish it was a sax, you can change it, and have that sax.

One thing you need to be aware of, if you use a memory sound, make sure you save it, that's the *.tm file.

Have you checked out the MSA using the composer? I have more info on this and will post later if your interested...

Anthony

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#48053 - 10/19/03 12:06 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Hi again Larry:

Larry said: "After using composer copy on a built in rhythm pattern, I recorded a song on the KN3000 and played it on the KN7000, and the rythmn was near perfect."

Reply: What exactly were you comparing when you said "near perfect"? If you compared the rhythm pattern that was saved on the KN3000 composer to the KN7000 composer. Comparing the same rhythm but on the different models, then yes there will be a slight difference but that's because of the difference between the two models. Which is expected with Technics instruments.

Since you have the KN3000 and KN7000 handy do the compare like this:

Load a KN3000 song using the pre-built rhythm pattern location. Now take that same song and load it on the KN7000. On both units, turn off the play feature. First, using the KN3000, play the APC only and get a feel of the beat pattern, try all variations for that particular beat. Turn the KN3000 off, and now do the same on the KN7000. Do you notice the difference in the rhythm pattern between the two? This is what needs comparing...

Anthony

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#48054 - 10/19/03 03:46 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
When using a copied built-in style from an earlier KN, via the Composer, the actual rhythmic patterns within the style will be the same. However, since the actual instrument voice samples used within the style will be different on the two KNs, the overall sound of the transferred style will be slightly different. This will probably be most evident in the KN3000 / KN7000 comparison, where the KN7000 samples are in most cases, better than the KN3000. You would probably notice less difference between KN6xxx and KN7000.
I'm not saying that a piano will become a flute or a trumpet become strings the actual instrument assignments will remain the same - just probably better quality on the newer KN.
Another thing to be aware of - if you are transferring a Composer style from an earlier KN and that style has been edited to include one or more voices from Sound Memory, then the Sound Memory must also be transferred to the later KN. If this is not done, then some very strange effects may result, depending on which sounds are resident in the later KN's Sound Memory, at the particular location accessed by the style
Again, since the Basic sound samples used in the edited Composer style of the earlier KN will differ from the Basic sound samples in the later KN, there will be a difference in the sound, or sounds, when the style is played on the later KN.

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#48055 - 10/19/03 09:27 AM Re: When to use Composer Memory
AnthonyCian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Arizona, USA
Thanks Bill for putting this in another perspective.

The "sounding" qualities are going to be different when using different models just the fact that these are different models. The R1, R2 and Left will show a difference in sound quality anyway regardless if the composer is used or not. If the composer is used, then it will show some differences there as well, mainly due to the sound samples that's on the KN3000 vs the KN7000. But the rhythm pattern will remain the same.

It's a Technics thing that we have try to make the best of.

Anthony

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