I'm looking for the best way to extend a song by copying or inserting measures.

What is the difference between Copy Measure and Insert Measure ?

I have problems editing measures that have an Ending to the song. Do I have to delete the Ending before Copying or Inserting measures?

Need a tip or 2 on "Measure Edit" to extend a song.

Thanks
Larry Hawk

Hi Larry,
my understanding is (and this is only off the top of my head, so someone correct me if I'm wrong)

copy measure- copies an existing measure/s ( notes & all) to where you nominate.
whereas inserting measure, will insert a blank measure, where you nominate.

Also I can't see why you'd need to delete your ending. but?

I don't do a lot of sequencing of songs, but I do use the sequencer at times for style creation. If I get a chance, I'll do a bit of fiddling around and see what I come up with if you're still having problems.

best wishes
Rikki

Hallo Larry,

Here is how you can lengten a song.

First off all you load the song into your keyboard.
Press the program menus buttom and then select sequencer from the options in the display.
Now select copy and past followed by measure copy. Now you can select the section of the song you want to copy and the pasting it to the measure where you want to begin it playing.
In the left box marked ,from , you set the tracks to all, and the measure where the section has to begin and the last measure of the section you want to copy.
In the right box marked TO,you set the track to ALL and then you give in the start measure and repeat 0 or 1 or 2 (it depends if you want to play this part several times). The start measure is the measure where you want to begin the part you copied.
Confirm all these settings by pressing OK followed by yes.
Don't forget to save the song when you are sattisfied with the result.

Greetings from Belgium,
Alain

Thank you .

I believe these are the kind of answers that Ted Rose was referring to... Plain and simple step by step instructions.

Regards,
Larry Hawk

The Copy & Paste method works fine for most songs and thanks for the tip. However I still have a problem with some songs that have an "Ending" included.

Example:
One of the songs I recently emailed Bebop had 47 measures with the Ending at meaure 48. I tried copying and pasting All tracks from measure 6 (after Intro) to measure 47 (before ending)

When the extended song is played back, the Ending is still there, and can be heard with the newly copied and pasted measures.

When the Ending ends in the newly copied and pasted measures, the rythmn also ends, and only the right hand sound can be heard at measure 48.

I hope I explained the problem well enough. I think the main question is : Why was the 'Ending" Copied and Pasted when I didn't include the Ending measures.

If you recieved this song through Bebop, and you have time...try extending the song, and let me know if you have the "Ending Problem".

Doubling the length was my goal, but I gave up and sent out the short version.
The song was "Love Nest" sent out on Fri Sept 5.

Thanks again to this great forum for all the help, tips, and tricks. You all are a huge help, and a great bunch of really nice people.

,
Larry Hawk

Hey Larry!

You are so right; I love simple step-by-step answers. They are easy for my feeble mind to understand.
(By the way, where do you find those cute icons included in your messages????)

Cheers,

Ted

Larry,
I believe that I have figured out how to get rid of that ending. It's not very straight forward and not very obvious.
1. Play your song and list where all of the changes take place, start of song, end of song, start of ending, whether it's ending one or two, ETC.
2.I have found that it takes three steps to erase the ending.
3.Go to sequencer - step edit. Select Cntrl Track 6. Scroll down to the measure where the ending starts. You should find a * in that vicinity. It may not be exactly at the end or start of a measure. That * should be listed as Rhythm Ending 1 (or 2).
Erase that *.
4. Go to sequencer - Copy and Paste. Select Measure Erase "All" and erase about 10 measures starting with the start of the ending.
5. Go to Measure Delete and delete those same measures.
6. Play the song to be sure that the ending is gone. You should hear the rhythm but no ending.
7. Go to Measure Copy and copy the measures that you want and tack them in place of where the ending used to be.
8. If you listen to the song at this stage, you should hear everything except an ending. (If there is no Intro, don't worry, you can put that back in later).
9. Go back to step record, find where the ending should now be and press the keyboard button for ending one (or two). This places a new Rhythm Ending star.
10. If the Intro is missing, go to sequencer - Panel Write. Press the Intro button and then OK.

Try the song and if OK --- Save IT -- If you turn the keyboard off without saving, the sequencer is HISTORY!

There may be an easier way but I have not found it -- accuracy of measure count is very important if the results are to be seamless.
Give it a try, and lot's of luck. I hope that it's worth the trouble.
Regards,
Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Meyer (edited 09-06-2003).]

Thank you all. Walt, I remember that was the process needed for the KN3000 years ago. It seems like a lot of work to completely delete the entire Ending, then copy and paste measures, then add the ending. I too wish there was an easier way.
Ted, The Cute Icons are from various sites around the web, where you must copy the Image Code of the smiley or other image and then paste the code here on your posting. The above icons came from http://mysmilies.com/


Larry Hawk

Great Stuff!

Thanks Larry for asking this question.

Thanks Walt for your explanation. I think we all expect things to be much easier than they are, it is a relief to realise that the long way to correct something may be the only way to do it. Seeing it written in black and white is a help in itself.

Can you imagine what would happen if the keyboard understood verbal instructions - I can imagine there would be a few keyboards that would refuse to play for quite a while

Joan

I seem to remember a similar problem with fill-ins. When you record fill-ins and intros & endings the sequence contains the fill and intro/ending data in both the APC and the CTRL tracks. You can edit and delete the item from the CTRL track but not from the APC track. IMHO, this is a software problem that Technics needs to address. IT SHOULDN'T BE THIS COMPLEX!

it's nowhere near this complex, folks.
If I wanted to get rid of a fill or ending I would use punch record for 1 measure and in a second they are gone.

I agree that will work, Alec. But why have an option to erase a command from the Control track if it doesn't accomplish what is needed?

who knows, every product has its foibles? A little lateral thinking achieves a solution with the absolute minimum of button pushing in the shortest space of time.

I guess when you get in your mid 70's it takes a while to sink in. It seems to me that pushing the erase button in the sequencer edit functions is much less "button pushing" than punching in new measures. I think those of us in a position to do so, should press for corrections to these sorts of software shortcomings when we can, rather than finding a new path around the barn, and going no further.

I believe the basic problem is that I have not found any where in the literature where it is noted that the fills, intros, and endings have different characteristics than other measures in a sequenced song. And, that the "Erase Measure" function set to "All" does indeed not do what it is supposed to do.
Lacking an adequate operating manual, we can only suppose that when a function is labeled "Erase Measure", it should erase any measure.
Great keyboard.
Short changed on documentation!
Just my thoughts,
Walt

First of all I never suggested that improvements cannot be made, just gave the quickest and easiest method using the present arrangements.

Secondly, let's look at "It seems to me that pushing the erase button in the sequencer edit functions is much less "button pushing" than punching in new measures":

Let us assume that erase in the control track worked as you desire, Bob. We have a song a hundered measures long and we want to erase the ending.

I go to auto punch with around the same number of button pushes to get to step record. When there I can DIAL in the start and stop measure virtually instantly. I start the song hold down the chord for one measure, the song automatically stops and the job is done.

If I did this in step record with your suggested superior method, I would need to press measure down a hundred times to get to the right place before I could erase the command. So not only does my method require the least effort with the present system, it remains far easier, with far less button pushing, even if the operating system was modified in the way you suggest

I didn't think I used the term "superior method" in any of my posts. There are several methods of fixing Larry's song. I sent one version to Larry yesterday. I don't question your method, Alec. As I said, I know that it is one method that will work. The point that I am trying to make is that the software is not correct. If we know that, I think it is more important in the long term to get it fixed, than to try to find a way to work around the problem.

no Bob, I said my method was the easiest and quickest. You clearly stated that step record erase in a new operating system would involve "much less button pushing" which as I have clearly demonstrated is simply not true.

So my point is that even if you got your software corrected "in the long term" you would still be no better off solving the problem under discussion. So far from my suggestion being a "work around" to the problem under discussion, it remains the easiest and quickest solution, even after your new suggested operating system arrives at some point in the future

OK Alec. It is foolish to beat a subject like this to death. I am pleased for you that you think you have a better solution than fixing the software. I just don't agree. So, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.

Alec,
No matter how I try, I can not get punch record to erase the ending. I know I must be doing something wrong. Can you please help. It sounds easy if I could get it to work.
Thanks,
Walt

Bob, sure we disagree, not about possible fixes to software, but over your claim that if this were done it would be mean less button pushing, which for the problem under discussion is clearly not the case compared to a solution I've suggested now.

Walt, did you prime both apc and control tracks? All you have to do is dial up just before the ending and punch in knowing the measure and the chord. Auto punch is even easier and foolproof and can also be dialled in. I can delete any ending in 2 seconds using this method. The great advantage is that if you have any melody/counter melody that overlapped the ending, these remain untouched, and if wanting to repeat you just repeat from the next measure with the melody intact but no ending command.

The next easiest method without using step record is measure erase since you can dial up the specific measure and set the data range to control only. Do this on tracks 5 and 6 of an easy recording and it takes me about 3 seconds and again leaves the melody untouched. The only point I'm making is that if your ending is in measure 100, then step record will require another 100 button pushes to get there, something that can be easily avoided by knowing how to use the full facilities on offer.

Alec, OK and thank you.
I got punch record (auto) to kill the ending. I guess the key here was "dial up just before the ending".
Now there is another problem. When I play the sequence all the way through, it resets itself automatically to measure 1 and starts playing all over again, except only the drums are audible.
How do I kill this action?
Regards,
Walt

Well, I'm back. The news from the doctor this morning was not good. But, back to Larry's song. . . When I considered deleting or punching nothing to the control track, I couldn't find a simple way to reinsert all the desired control events that were in the measure. As I recall, there were over a dozen events in the measure, most of which were subtle changes in expression using the expression pedal. I had no problem with punching to or deleting the APC track. But I didn't feel I should just throw away all of Larry's control events along with the ending event. So, I discarded the approaches that Alec has used for the control track. The approach that I used included more steps that do take more time than Alec's approach. But, we're not in a race. We are just trying to solve Larry's problem. Did you have a solution for replacing the deleted events, that I don't know about, Alec?

Walt, I assume you've doubled up the song and this happens at the end? Without seeing the sequence and the steps you took to reach this stage I can not say, I could list many possible reasons. Perhaps the first thing to try would be a measure delete from the end of last measure onwards to bring the end command back to the end of the sequence (dial up an extra couple of hundred measures to make sure). Perhaps the next might be to insert a step record control stop command at the end of the ending (if a start goes in first just delete it), it all depends on the particular sequence and how you got to this point

Bob, no-one has mentioned other control information that needs to be retained. If you now wish to completely change the criteria of the presented problem to include this new information it is perfectly obvious that all you have to do is erase the end command in the control track using step record, and then punch through the apc measure. This will easily satisfy your new conditions.

Sorry, Alec. I thought you knew that we were talking about Larry's song that was the subject of this thread. I agree with you! We need to delete the ending event in the measure, and leave the other events alone. Wouldn't it be nice if in the process of doing that, the software worked as it should and also deleted the event in the APC track? Then we would be back to a simple one step action. Think about what is needed to delete a fill-in elsewhere in the song where it is mixed with several other control events in the measure. I say again, the software needs to be fixed.

How about this ?

At the "Rythmn Ending" Measure, Punch Record(CTL)a "Fill-In". Then Copy and Paste the measures you want to use to extend the song after that fill-in.
I would think that would provide a nice transition for the newly copied mesures.

Will that work? Will Punch Recording a fill-in over ride the ending ? I guess I should just try it, uh ?

PS Not to dwell on it, but I agree with Bob. If your select "ending delete"...it should delete, or it least it should be explained in the owners manual that you can't delete an ending this way.(Walt is right about that)

Alex, thanks for the Punch Record Tip. It is a tool I should be using more often, although a little tricky to grasp.


SeeYa
Larry Hawk

Larry, you gave away one of our secret tricks. . .

Larry, yes that will obviously work, whether you wish a use fill to improve the subjective effect of the transition to the repeat or not is immaterial, I have used the first measure of the ending in the past which often provides a pleasing subjective outcome. Glad my method works for you.

Bob, you may have been talking about Larry’s song, but no one mentioned keeping control events until you brought it up late in the day. If you would have said that in the first place then I could have described the final solution immediately. I have no problem with fixes to software, I merely took issue with your obviously incorrect statements about required button pushes.

Now I was told that to erase an ending to use " Sequencer Measure Erase"
However,because of a flaw in the 7000, if you want to measure erase an ending that has the ending at measure 48 to 50, you actually need to measure erase begining at measure 47 to 50.(not 48)
Does this sound right?

Also, does using an expression pedal have any affect on ones ability to erase the rythmn ending using Step Record(CTL)?

When I erase the * IN Step Record, (where the rythmn ending is), the * rythmn ending will be removed, however, there remains many more *** ** **** . Is this because of the expression pedal? If not, what are those remaining *'s ? Why is there data after an ending, particularly AFTER I deleted the Ending ?

Slightly confused
Larry Hawk

I’ve described 3 ways to get rid of an ending off the top of my head, Larry, I could probably think of a few more, it all depends on exactly what you want to do next... If the ending is in measure 48, that is the only measure that needs consideration to remove the ending pattern, for instance with punch or measure erase of control data or whatever.

The expression pedal has no effect on the ability to erase the ending, whether you wish to keep the expression in the middle of the song is a subjective judgement which is possible using the method I’ve described, if you feel the expression is inappropriate to the middle of the song, and belongs only at the end you can delete all the data or only some and use a quicker method, its purely subjective and quite possible either way, whichever you desire.

The asterisks are all control data - with the song you are all talking about (which I have never seen) I would assume they are expression data. The expression is input from an analogue potentiometer whose output is stored as a series of digital volume levels over time as it is moved – the many asterisks. They are there after you remove the ending because an ending is generally 4 or 8 bars. Removing the ending command does not remove the following 4 or 8 bars, they merely play without the ending pattern in the same rhythm as was playing immediately before the end command. To remove the following measures use the measure erase etc etc.

I don't think my feeble old mind can absorb much more of this brilliance. I will now leave this thread and get on with more pressing things.

All I really wanted to do is increase the length of a song. I was having trouble doing that, because the "Ending" was interfering with copying desired measures.

I am happy to say, that thanks to all of you, I now know how to complete such a task. It's just a matter of choosing the correct option.

Actually, to avoid this problem in the future, I will not include an "Ending" while recording, instead I will add the Ending as a last step, AFTER all editing, measure copying, etc. is complete.

Thanks everyone for very enlighting and thought provoking responses. Nothing beats learning from experts.

Regards,
Larry Hawk

Hi
I’m sure every KN7000 owner who’s read this
great, enlightening thread must have learned
something from it, and I would like to thank
the participants for sharing their detailed
knowledge, which I hope one day I will be able
to make use of, as I down load it, and put it
with “Getting the most from your KN7000”
bible. But I must admit I am very ignorant
of a lot of this technology, which has a tendency
to go right over my head, and to prove how simple
I am. The best part of this thread for me was,
Larry Hawk’s Smilies!!!
I know, I should get out more.
Thank you once again,
Best wishes,
Fred UK.

Well Fred,
We all have to start sometime.
Regards,
Walt

this subject is always a favourite. I seem to remember covering it in detail on the old forum, and if you have Technote magazine did a step by step tutorial last year, I think. Personally I use step record only as a last resort when no other fix is available purely because it is a very inefficient menu in terms of button pushing and time.

Larry, In answer to your original question ‘How to extend a song’ and it’s been right round the houses, copy , erase this , punch in that, it all sounds to complicated.
‘Measure copy’ is a pain in the butt, try ‘MEASURE INSERT’. The song moves along nicely keeping all them events in their place ready for you to input a fill and a voice change at the new section. Have fun.

Alan P.

The complication occurs when an ending is within the section you require to repeat, Alan. In those circumstances the steps I described are required for a succesful result.

Alec,
I believe where some of the confusion comes in is that in actual live play most of us hit the ending button before the end of the last measure of the song. The keyboard is smart enough to not actually start the ending sequence until the next measure.
As I see it, this is where the "delete" problem arises. The Ending Command (*) is placed in the control track 6 at the time the button is hit - in this case, in the measure before where you hear the ending. However, the sequencer records the ending APC data (track 5) in the measure where the ending actually is playing.
This means that when listening to a sequence, lets say that the ending starts in measure 48, you must erase the ending command (*) in measure 47 because that's where it is. Track 5 with the recorded APC ending would be in measure 48 so that's where track 5 must be deleted.
I have had the best luck just using Measure Delete>All starting with the measure just before the ending. This leaves the end of the song intact and has deleted the ending every time.
Regards,
Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Meyer (edited 09-09-2003).]

yes, that is one scenario (presumably from this particular song) Walt, and another I come across is where the tail of the melody or counter melody overlaps the beginning of the ending deliberately. You wish a repeat but merely chopping measures would cut off the end of the melody in the middle of the song. I describe solutions as universal as possible so they fit as many circumstances as you may come across in different songs.

I sent this particular song out via Bebop.
For those who did not recieve it, I made a link, so that you may download it, investigate it, and give a try at doubling the length of the song.

If you could, let us all know how you doubled the song, and why I had a hard time, I believe most of us here at the forum would be interested at your particular way of editing.

So for all those who want to give it a try:
http://www.geocities.com/hawk1866/MeasureEdit.html?1063206085515

Thanks everyone, you all make learning the 7000 fun !