I could play my S970 or mostly any arranger kb currently on the market with a blindfold on as I've owned and played almost all of them in the past,...not that I don't like the sound or most of the styles, etc, but just the every day same old, same old ,features, keyfeel, OS,and just the repetitiveness of playing it over and over again,....yes I do it just to have an arranger kb here for quick recordings, making tracks, etc, all other useless leftover gear just gathering dust strewn all over has been sold as a packrat I am not and just looking at it depresses me and leaves me wondering why I even bought it in the first place and what is it doing here taking up space if I never play it at all anymore ... but I get less excited as time goes on with the waiting in between each model dwindling longer and much longer in today's world as they string us along with REhashed old parts, suedo NEW so called units, eg: S970/S975 etc,....
What is Exciting YOU to play or buy in the arranger keyboard world today or tomorrow to make you NOT Bored?....

In retrospect sometimes I just want to return to a time when I first started playing PRE ARRANGER years late 50s,60,70's using just a Hammond, Rhodes, etc, some sort of simple backup module, etc, and simply create music and stay excited.
I agree with Chas who said somewhat in another recent post......

"Seems to me, the more you go in this direction, the more you lean towards technology and away from music
(or PLAYING the instrument)."~Chas

Boring aspects of Arranger Keyboards for me are:

1. Unmusical bass lines especially in jazz walking bass and salsa. Not sure if an arranger keyboard will ever be able to anticipate what chord is coming up next, so the results are simply unmusical and not stylistically authentic.

2. Chord recognition is very limited on all the keyboards I've tried which limits me greatly.

3. Breaks and unison "tuti" rhythmic are hard to pull off effectively.

So the NEXT arranger should let you record straight to DAW, tracks individually. Then have unlimited "other" takes you can piece in for all other tracks....

many of your thoughts can be remedied using midi files and creating your own Arrangement and bass lines the way you like them to be and sound and you can just play on top of it exactly the way you want the song to be..

In reality, it comes down to what and how you're playing on your keyboard not so much the keyboard it self. For example I'm getting tired of using the same old licks for blues based generas. I realized I am always using the minor blues scale so I'm figuring out how to more musically use both the major and minor blues scale. It's totally changed how I solo over blues, rock, and county styles. It wasn't the keyboard's fault that I was musically limiting myself!

Donny, this is a touchy subject, as no one WANTS to be quickly bored with something they just shelled out 4-5 grand for. But you'll notice, more and more folks here have 'fessed up to spending more and more time on their organs, digital pianos, accordions, synths, guitars, etc., as though there was a sudden re-discovery of these 'you actually gotta' play it' instruments. I think the reason (or perhaps the DIFFERENCE) is that when you sit down to a 'manual' instrument, the world is your oyster, the magic created is yours, the possibilities are endless. On the other hand, the arranger, when used as an arranger (what you paid the big bucks for), DOES have limits (maybe not actually but practically), and those limits are soon explored, manipulated, and finally, exhausted. THAT'S when the boredom sits in. It's one of the reason we sit around waiting on the 'new' model although we've only explored 20% of the model we currently have. Why? BOREDOM. Boredom with the sounds, boredom with the styles, boredom with the feature set, boredom (and frustration) with the fact that our playing skills have NOT increased and that if we sucked before, we still suck (despite the heavy outlay of cash).

I can truly say that I am never bored when I sit down to my organ or even my new SEVEN. Can't really say the same about by three arrangers. JMO.

chas

Guys, I like EVERYTHING about my arrangers except all that automatic stuff!

R.

I love all my arrangers, some more than others. It totally amazes me that I can sit here and sound like a full band, combo, soloist, whatever I like.
I played guitar for years, and now never pick it up. Never played piano. Can't play trumpet with phony teeth.
Only thing that bores me sometimes is that people want to hear the SAME songs every time. If I learn something new, most don't respond. Have to pick your times and audience though.
Maybe that's why I change arrangers a lot, to make the same songs sound different.
Wonderful Tonight
Margaritaville
Brown-eyed Girl
Can't Help Falling In Love
The Way You Look Tonight
Any Johnny Cash song
Just about any Willie Nelson song
Mustang Sally
Midnight Hour
Proud Mary
For The Good Times...etc. Are ALWAYS are well received. $$
They want to hear something they remember and that brings back memories. Seems even the younger people like classics, swing, old country, classic rock. Many have told me they know the songs because that's what their parents listened to at home.

Don, +1 ...

IF I get bored with my arraner kb, I will sit down and open one of my 'fake' books, from the original #1, or one of mt REAL Books, or anything else ... I'll flip open to a page and if it's a song I've played before, I'll try to do it in a different style, whatever, and if it's a song I haven't played before, then I will try to play in many variations to see what sounds good ...
Then if I REALLY get bored, I'll go out and mow my lawn like I'm going to do now - me, my lawn mower, a cigar and a large bottle of water ...

Donny you have done it again, good subject.

1-I had to ask myself what am I trying to accomplish. When jobs were plentiful I had purpose; there were people waiting to see and hear. That has changed.
2-When I bought my first Kn7000 I had all I needed to do a good job. From the Kn2000 each new model brought more of what was needed. It was so complete that the question was, “What else could they possibly add”? We wanted more so they gave us better ways to do the same thing – better sounds and styles.
3-A love for the music I was playing. I was born in 1931 so you know that kind of music I love. It was a blessing to go through a fake book and play.

My answers:
1-Simply said I want to enjoy music. I am now programming my keyboard with the music I love. Sight reading and memorization – I felt the emotion of the song I was playing. Many of the songs came with memories I lived through.
2-I would buy another Kn7000 if it were not for the age and possible lack of parts. My Pa4x does sound much better – but it can not fill the need that I have now. I play the music I love with my guitar with a few effects. It’s 90% me and 10% the guitar. There lies my need; my purpose, to enjoy. The musician today needs what the Pa4x offers, but they have a different purpose; music is different today. You wanna hear me do La Bamba, I’m surprised that no one ever shot me.
3-A happy home player is one that uses an instrument to bring out the emotions that he feels. It has nothing to do with the rest of the world.

I’m guessing that the last three cars I traded in are still going. Did I really need another car? No. but is one heck of a way of treating myself nice.
John C.

Boring?
Nothing.
If anything is boring, it's Mr. Me Myself that trying hard to move my left hand fingers as a pianist, but with no success.

I am never bored because I have five keyboards and two modules that I have ongoing projects for. The question didn't address the duplication of energy or the learning of every intricacy of one keyboard. I play well enough, and always improving, but never bored spending at least eight hours a day in my studio. There is not time enough to accomplish even most of what I want to. Who cares, this is my life happy as a pig.

Boring....

Let me ask you two questions,

-where is the innovation when it comes to styles?
Haven’t we all been asking for that for 2 decades now,
more dynamic styles to addapt to your playing

-why doesn’t the arranger market add more pro fetures?
Soundwise and option wise, outside of the arranger styles
Arrangers just keep trailing the top of the line range instruments by atleast a decade
Often pro features for edditing aren’t even implemented..

Yet in the end, no instrument is as expensive as an arranger..

No, arrangers aren’t boring... they are fun to play...
but they could have been even more sparkling...

Exactly Don as you well know like I do after so many years in the trenches what the performer likes means squat it's what the audiences like and can instantly relate to on the first note that matters most.
Play the new stuff in your bedroom by yourself to keep you from getting bored

Thanx john seems to me from your writings and passion that you would be better off playing guitar and singing midi'd against a module arranger like the Roland BK7, Ketron sd40,sd90 etc,....
changes always have to be made to make it right inside you good luck...love your posts!

I guess I must really be old, cause nothing is boring at all about my arranger keyboards. In fact, I feel nothing but excitement every time I fire it up and begin playing, even when playing some songs I have played thousands of times before. It's an exciting instrument to play.

Gary

This may seem off-topic but it's really not. I think one's view of what and where music is in their life is going to vary considerably depending on whether one is an amateur-level home player, a semi-pro weekend warrior, a true professional, or a 'household name' (aka Superstar).

When one thinks of it in the context of how well it facilitates making a living vs. how well it does in terms of bringing you personal satisfaction, you are using two vastly different rating systems. Except for a handful of 'pro's' here, most rate their arrangers on the basis of personal satisfaction. For the most part, the 'Pro's' are perfectly happy with their arrangers (Zuki is a good example of that) and change mostly as a result of temporary 'gear lust'. For at least the last 15 years, arrangers have been able to cover the requirements of the average gig played by the performers here. It is unlikely that their gig schedule has been altered (increased) by changing or upgrading keyboards every five seconds. In many cases, the busiest musicians/performers are using duct-tape specials from days of yore .

Let's face it, it's not so much the arranger you're bored with, it's just that it's easier to get a new toy than expend the energy to delve deeply into the potential of the one we already have. And then there are the 100%, non-apologetic, all-out GEEKS, who just like all the new buttons, lights, and switches (and can't bear to be a generation behind on anything ). JMO.

chas

ME!! I mean......I am the most boring aspect of my keyboard. I get nothing but pleasure whenever I played any of my past keyboards. This Genos is no different. It's played the same way as my old PSR days. Of course it sounds much better. There are a few things I have done over the years to help with the monotony of playing styles.

I always play full chords with the left hand. Playing full chords makes me think a little more on what I am doing and where my song is going, especially when playing more difficult keys. Playing different keys with their real notes instead of using the transpose button is something else I do.

Most of the Yamaha arrangers I have played have 3 intros and endings and 4 style variations. Except for the first intro and ending I find them phony sounding. Much too busy. I use the fade function (probably too much) a lot to gradually wind the song down. It's also easy to get in the habit of playing the style variations 1 2 3 4. They seem to build themselves up that way. I've been experimenting a lot lately starting a song with the 2 or 3 variation and un-building to the next verse.

So far I have played my Genos more hours weekly than any of my Tyros's. It does have a sparkling attraction to my ears. Many of the simple songs I record and play are done with far fewer mistakes. More practice is the probable culprit but I must give Genos some credit. I am definitely mentally connected with it when I play......and there is nothing boring about that !!! -charley

As another member pointed out, bass lines in the styles need massive improvement across all the brands. Some are better than others, but they all need work. I’ve said in the past that a dead giveaway that an arranger keyboard was used is the bass lines.

I also don’t understand why is it that we’re near the end of 2018, and arranger keyboard makers haven’t put much effort into providing good software editors with their keyboards. These are so common outside of the arranger market. My Roland RS-70 from 2003 had a good software editor, and that was a budget keyboard.

Again, nearing the end of 2018, why are internal speakers in modern arrangers taking up so much damn precious real estate that could be used to add more knobs, buttons, and sliders? With the speaker technology today, arrangers don’t need large speakers. You can still get amazing sound out of smaller speakers, and properly designed housings. It’s even worse when they try to “dress up” the speakers aesthetically, making them look gaudy at times.

Sqk

Once in a while, I play my DGX650. The piano action like feel seems to give me more control over expression.

Thats what the heavier keys do...
Having th same dynamic controll over synth keys takes more skill
Thats probably why i prefer the weighted 88 key hammer action..

Playing fast and furious organ and synth parts however works better on a synth/organ keybed
Espescially organ, where vellocity is set to 127 over all the range, and there is no dynamics.. same goes for many of the older analogue synth sounds... they are from before the velocity sensitive keybeds..

This is where semi-weighted keybeds came in as they offered a compromise between the heavy hammer action keybeds and the extremely light synth action. (If you want to cover all instances (Rather than mastering one) then semi-weighted is the way to go)
NOTE: Not all semi-weighted keybeds are created equal, so make sure you try before you buy, as some manufactures use it just for marketing, and don’t use proper semi-weighted keybeds.

Bill

When your gigging day after day 4 hr shows etc,etc,or playing alot at home day after day..weighted keys can take a big toll on your fingers, wrists, hands after time for sure, carpal tunnel, arthritis, etc,...but to each their own.
Personally I like a much lighter keybed for my playing style.

All these things you name are either part of us aging, or a wrong position behind the keys.

While heavier keys cause fatigue... they also happen to train your finger musscles more, keeping them in shape..

If anything causes carpal tunnel, the only thing to overcome that is chnage your position..

Artritis is offcourse a disease non related to playing keys, and part of aging.. in which case cutting back on keyweight might be a solution.. i don’t know..maybe a doctor can answer this..

But Donny, if that were true, wouldn't it affect professional pianists? I don't recall this being a problem with the ones I know (who play frequently and exclusively piano their entire lives). Just sayin'. BTW, if you live long enough, you're going to get arthritis anyway, even if you've never seen a keyboard. Also, I've got arthritis in every joint in my body EXCEPT my fingers; I attribute that to daily exercise my fingers get playing keyboards, including piano.

chas

You just pointed out the difference between a pianist and keyboardist. There's absolutely no way that one could develop muscles required for standard piano literature. That's exactly why heavier keys cause fatigue for those who play keyboards. It takes me less than 10 seconds to figure out a non-pianist performance on a standard acoustic piano, even if they're a skilled keyboardist. Uneven touch, and inconsistent dynamics -amongst other things- give it away.

Same thing with a Pianist playing the keyboard. It just looks and sounds odd. Unless one is trained on both, these two terms are not to be confused.

All I know after 50 years on stage is I love a lightweight good action keybed....

I have had my old korg pa1x for 15 years and still have not exhausted its potential. I now have the latest iteration of the korg arranger keyboard. The P a 4X. I don’t think I will have another keyboard of any kind after this and I have no doubt that I will not exhaust its potential either. If I get bored it’s simply because I am bored playing music. Nothing to do with the instrument . If I get bored with the preprogrammed styles , I simply create my own styles or edit the already existing ones to my taste. If I get bored with the styles instead of live playing, I just stay in keyboard mode and play piano electric piano guitar horns strings whatever if you like playing. If I get fed up of playing by myself, I go and play with the band, live drums , live bass player, live singers and just use the keyboard as a keyboard. If I want to be completely created from scratch, I will sequence my own work using the onboard sequencer . In other words I struggle to get bored but I certainly can’t blame the instrument that has provided me with so many creative tools and endless musical strategies .

The question should be why are you so easily bored ?? Most of the time it’s simply a lack of inspiration . The best cure for me is listening to other musicians that I admire . That cures boredom very quickly . The down side is it is then replaced with envy 😭

Which is why it's important to choose the right keybed for your playing style.

That's the beauty of a controller kb and module..

First and foremost, from a medical point of view, I seriously doubt that you are strengthening your finger muscles by using weighted keys, synth of piano makes absolutely no difference. The movements while playing do not flex those muscles very much at all.

However, the impact and repetitive motion can cause carpal tunnel syndrome. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is caused by repetitive pressure on the median nerve that runs from your hands, through the wrist and the entire length of the arm. The sheath that this nerve runs through is called the Carpal Tunnel. The nerve controls the movements of your thumb and all fingers except the little finger. Repetitive motions, such as typing, key punch, running a jack hammer, etc..., high impact motions cause inflammation of the tunnel, which then fuses the nerve to the tunnel wall, thereby compressing the nerve, resulting in numbness and pain. When I was young and working in medicine, the syndrome was known as Jackhammer Disease and Carpenters Disease, which were the two occupational hazards that often resulted in this problem.

The reason concert pianist do not develop this problem very often (some do) is because their wrist rarely flexes and the wrist is not in a stationary position when playing. Instead, the wrist tends to be locked in a straight out position and not flexing, while most of the flexing is at the elbow instead.

This is not usually the case with arranger keyboard and synth players, both of which tend to flex their fingers more than their elbows or wrists. Not a lot of Jerry Lee style players performing with synths or arranger keyboards.

Me, personally, I love those soft arranger keys. I once had a keyboard with semi-weighted keys and by the end of a 4 hour performance I thought my wrists were on fire - it was horrible. That night, I had to soak my hands in hot water, then switch to ice water in order to be able to sleep sleep. The next day, they still hurt, but by the end of the week I had a new PSR-500 and was loving life.

All the best,

Gary

We're not talking about an actual muscle in that sense. We're not saying a pianist fingers have BIGGER muscles in a sense that they can punch harder or have more horse power to lift heavier things or any thing like that at all. That would be a very odd thing to say!

And, your point is?

Gary

My point is, the reason you don't have the stamina and strength to cope with even a semi weighted keybed is that your fingers are not conditioned to deal with the stress and weight of heavier keys on a synth...let alone on a real acoustic Piano. It's just a mechanical thing. You could be a VERY strong man with real strong hands and yet not have the finger strength to deal with heavier keybed. This has nothing to do with one's musicianship, other than the fact that when your finger don't do what you want them to do, you can't be as expressive and musical. Your fingers can't be flowy and all that.

Sam, from my perspective, and having played both instruments, playing a piano and playing a synth require two, totally different techniques and has absolutely nothing to do with finger strength. An arranger keyboard is played using finger movement, while a piano is played using primarily forearm movement.

All the best,

Gary

I'm no expert and don't claim to be, as I'm not classically trained, but (from my own personal experience) I certainly DON'T agree with the above statement.

chas

I don't care!

Gary

A favorite expression in our household: "A bored person is a boring person."

Seeing as how most don't use but about 20% of an arrangers features, try expanding to 30 or 40%. That should unbore you for a while.

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw someone playing piano with their forearms. They must have been playing a lot of 'block chords' . I agree with you on this statement though, ("An arranger keyboard is played using finger movement") as it takes a lot of finger dexterity to manipulate all those buttons, knobs, switches, and sliders all while trying to read the lyrics (except for Donny, who has them all memorized ) on that tiny screen. Anyway, according to your theory, Popeye must have been a helluva piano player .

chas

ok. Thanks

My piano teacher would highly disagree with that..

playing piano is all about the perfect balance between fingers wrists and lower arms..

I think this video pretty much indicates what he tought me..



with just the finger technique of the piano playing, you come a long way on semi weighted keybeds. But all the finger technique is there in the playing the piano..

in general, playing and training more piano makes you less fatigued after long playing sessions..

My thoughts:

Having a father went to Italy to study concert piano -- I have to say that there arm movements. To what degree? I think it may have a lot to do with volume -- accenting

When I am trying to improve my finger technics I do scales and arps on the piano. Returning to the keyboard I seem to have more command. Studies start slow an accurate, then gradually speed up.

I use an acoustic guitar which has high action in the same way. Returning to a guitar with low action I can breeze through the same piece of music.

John C.

Bachus, my piano teacher played with the Baltimore Symphony and she would agree with much of the video you posted. She was an incredible player and played for the Symphony for three decades before passing away. However, she always stressed forearm and wrist movement, primarily when a player was placing emphasis on a particular note or chord.

Gary

So what's boring about playing your arranger keyboard.. just saying..

As stated prior to the piano rant, "Absolutely nothing" is boring about playing my arranger keyboard, or any instrument for that matter. If I still had the chops, I would love playing my old 12 string guitar, mandolin, and even the chromatic harmonica.

Gary

That the topic title doesn’t fit in with this forum?

As Gary says, there is nothing boring about playing arrangers..
Maybe they could spice up arrangers some more..
But the playing itselves is allways very fun..

Do teenage boys get carpal tunnel?

Boring is the mother of improvement.

Styles can be very boring; thump thump thump!

Sure, styles are boring, but that is why I love Multi-Pads, and switches that mute part of the style. By adding a ride cymbal, or a snare on 2 and 4, we have a difference. A bass that adds more of a kick. The list goes as far as your imagination.

So --- Boring equals improvement. Yes, boring can happen, but it is not the fault of the keyboard.

My opinion, John C.

I would say: Not boring at all!
During the years the arranger keyboards has given me nothing else than lots of joy and fun!
Well, and some more grey hair...

🎶🎶🎹🎶🎶

The Lazarus of threads! 😂

Boring often gets two different levels of recognition. One, from those that always have played with machines, then from those with (at least at some point or another in their lives) some experience playing with other musicians.

There’s a level of surprise a real player can throw at you that no number of multipads or styles can ever equal. For starters, arrangers are slaves to the input chord. No matter how different the style or multipad might be, at the end of the day, you tell it to play a C chord, ALL its parts are going to play a C chord.

Not so, real players! Every now and again, someone’s going to play something different that will take the music somewhere else, you weren’t expecting it, but there it is. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. But your arranger will never do it.

So, to avoid boredom you have to work incredibly hard trying to work around the arranger’s slavish devotion to what you play. Reprogramming style or multipads, using audio loops etc.. But, in the end, because you had to do all this in advance you lose that sense of surprise. You know it’s coming because you programmed it to do it.

No surprises. 😢🎹

I didn`t realise that these posts date back to 2018,it wasn`t
until I saw the post from Don Mason that I checked the date.
As it is almost 4 years ago I would imagine that aaranger keyboards are much less boring.

I always enjoyed the excitement of waiting for the next model of an arranger to arrive, right from the rumour stage, from the photoshopped pictures that then turn out to be true leaked pictures & specs, then the debates & arguments we’d all participate in until it’s release, all seem to have become fewer & far between because the gaps between each release has more than doubled now, possibly making things stale.

The last exciting release I can remember was the SX900 which turned out to be such an awesome instrument (for me) that I recently sold my T4 to get a second SX900 as I can’t see Yamaha updating that anytime soon unless it’s by a major OS update.

I think an arranger can add some variety, on the fly. Adding pads, using intros/endings and a host of other surprises bodes well to mix things up. Flowery chords add an element and I enjoy the unexpected band that follows at times. If set up properly, the audience doesn't seem too locked in on boredom. It's also a lot of fun;kind of like painting a picture, IMO. Happy New Year everyone.

This applies to all arranger keyboards from any manufacture, in that the styles are all monotonous and just playing along to them gives no true fulfilment. (Much better to play the song yourself with just a simple backing as it’s much more satisfying)

Bill

Starting with a simple backing is a good start. One who finds no fulfilment is not digging deep enough, IMO. There are many ways to enlighten the soul of the song, even in arranger mode. I do find some models extremely predictable, but I find Korg styles exciting and moving. So glad we are all different.